Arizona outlaws funding to Planned Parenthood.

[Mekh]

First of all, I only read so far into the thread before replying. If I am rehashing whats already been posted then I apologize to those who got into this thread before I did. I only found it today.

Wasn't criticizing you. Only the fact in general that one has to always start at the beginning in this debate as if the people had goldfish memories.

[Googolplex]

I fail to see the argument on how this is not proper. Taxpayers money should NEVER be used to pay for someone to get an abortion because someone couldnt keep their legs closed or be more responsible. If someone wants an abortion ok fine fair enough. But it should come out of THEIR pocket, not state money funneled by the taxpayers.

Nice logic there mate, except paying for an abortion will save society (and the state) 10 times that amount in the long run...

[Xeviant]

Might improve the situation if they started allowing homosexuals to adopt children.

Definitely, but that's an insanity of bias that still thrives unfortunately.

If he's against letting women have an abortion, that poster is sure as hell not going to be in favour of letting a homosexual couple have it xD

Nice generalization, pity it was wrong.

[Maelle]

Good post Anevers. Planned Parenthood is a good organization. It is a stupid move to cut funding to an organization because of an objectionable 3%. They should just stipulate how the money can/should be used. To clearly state my opinion, I dont think abortions should be available in the situation of: oopse, i didn't think to wear a rubber. That's just giving way to crass irresponsibility. However, like I said, there are situations (like when it puts the mother's life at risk) that I think there should be options available. If you want to seriously fix the problem of unwanted pregnancy teach people to be responsible. It's much cheaper and safer. If for some reason you do get knocked up, there are a lot of people out there that would love to have kids but cannot, who would very much appreciate the opportunity to become a parent.

You live in Cloud Cookoo land, it must be lovely there....

Has the use of education and information on heavy alcohol consumption and drug taking meant people no longer use drugs and alcohol? Has information on savings and fiscal resposibility led to people being more financially responsible and stable?

Sex education is very nice, and is important - however - horny teenagers / young adults always have, and always will fly in the face of all reason, and make bad judgement calls. All the fire and brimstone, expensive abortions and emotional blackmail in the world won't change that.

The adoption system is as flawed as forcing grudging parents to raise children they don't want. I'm sure that you will conveniently turn a blind eye to that though, far better to ruin several lives than remove a sacred clump of cells...

Not to mention, and I know I have said this in similar threads and it's still true, the removal of abortion as a factor, ALWAYS dumps the ultimate responsibility and discomfort / life changes firmly in the womans lap. Which I am sure a lot of men are quite fine with.

[Alenarien]

I don't think this funding should have been removed, but I do believe the decision to have an abortion, regardless of the ethical/moral implications, is not one that should ever be taken lightly, and you can bet your ass i'm going to be rather unashamed in publically branding people as the disgusting pieces of shit they are if their train of logic is anything like this:

[Xeviant]

You live in Cloud Cookoo land, it must be lovely there....

Has the use of education and information on heavy alcohol consumption and drug taking meant people no longer use drugs and alcohol? Has information on savings and fiscal resposibility led to people being more financially responsible and stable?

Sex education is very nice, and is important - however - horny teenagers / young adults always have, and always will fly in the face of all reason, and make bad judgement calls. All the fire and brimstone, expensive abortions and emotional blackmail in the world won't change that.

Well shoot, by that logic, what's the point of even having laws? I mean people are always gonna speed and drive like morons, so why even bother with driver's ED or licensing. Hell, lets disband the narcotics squad now and save some money. Terrorists are just gonna keep popping up all over, so, we should really just train our military in disaster recovery instead of combat training.

Hate to burst your bubble, but, according to a study by UNICEF and GUTTMACHER, 75% of the decrease in teen pregnancy(between 1950 and 2010) has been a result of the use of contraception. So, evidently the message is getting around. As far as responsibility is concerned: It's equal in deciding to have unprotected sex. (i've not been talking about rape, because I would consider that a special circumstance).

[budong]

Good post Anevers. Planned Parenthood is a good organization. It is a stupid move to cut funding to an organization because of an objectionable 3%. They should just stipulate how the money can/should be used. To clearly state my opinion, I dont think abortions should be available in the situation of: oopse, i didn't think to wear a rubber. That's just giving way to crass irresponsibility. However, like I said, there are situations (like when it puts the mother's life at risk) that I think there should be options available. If you want to seriously fix the problem of unwanted pregnancy teach people to be responsible. It's much cheaper and safer. If for some reason you do get knocked up, there are a lot of people out there that would love to have kids but cannot, who would very much appreciate the opportunity to become a parent.

You make it sound like there's a huge waiting list for parents wanting kids. There are many more children waiting to be adopted than parents looking to adopt. Most of these children grow up in foster care, shuttled from one family to the next. Let same sex couples adopt and this number gets better but there will always be more children than parents wanting them.

While I agree that people SHOULD be more responsible, it's a simple fact that people aren't. Even intelligent normally responsible people make huge mistakes. If someone isn't ready to have a child then why should we force them to have it. Because they screwed up? We're also going to condemn the child to grow up in a life that the mother isn't ready to provide? This puts even MORE pressure on the taxpayer. We pay more taxes taking care of single mothers and their children than we would paying for abortions.

One of the few things that separates us from the animals is our ability to control our reproduction. Removing that ability because of moral objection will never hold up in court and in the long run just costs the state taxpayers even more money in litigation. You want cheaper and safer? Promote every possible form of birth control available. The best way to avoid abortions is to not get pregnant in the first place. People are going to have sex no matter what some priest, pastor or state representative says. It's human nature to procreate. So make it so every one has fast easy access to multiple forms of birth control. In the long run it's much cheaper than trying to come up with ways to stop abortion or trying to take care of millions of foster kids.

Besides, if someone that has unhindered access to birth control is dumb enough to still get knocked up....do you really want their genes being passed along?

[Xeviant]

One of the few things that separates us from the animals is our ability to control our reproduction. Removing that ability because of moral objection will never hold up in court and in the long run just costs the state taxpayers even more money in litigation. You want cheaper and safer? Promote every possible form of birth control available. The best way to avoid abortions is to not get pregnant in the first place. People are going to have sex no matter what some priest, pastor or state representative says. It's human nature to procreate. So make it so every one has fast easy access to multiple forms of birth control.

Pretty sure that's just what I said. The real solution is to educate people on contraception. Furthermore, yeah, I get that people make mistakes, but, if they have an easy way out, what's there to deter people from it? Besides, that's what the morning after pill is for, the oh shit i made a mistake.

[darenyon]

Pretty sure that's just what I said. The real solution is to educate people on contraception.

which is what planned parenthood does.

[conscript]

Pretty sure that's just what I said. The real solution is to educate people on contraception.

Educating people on contraception is helpful, but fairly pointless. Everyone knows what condoms are. They are in every store, every gas station in the country. Commercials for Trojan condoms are on tv constantly. Any kid claiming they got pregnant because they didn't know what condoms were or where to get them is a liar, simple as that. You can educate people to use them all you want, it isn't going to happen. It will reduce, but never eliminate. The bigger problem is girls in their 20s having multiple kids with no family structure. They are the ones sucking up a majority of the government aide.
Arizona is really turning into the most conservative state in the union. How many more anti-women bills are they going to pass? In recent weeks they have now killed funding for PP that provides way more services than abortions and have declared that the age of a fetus starts two weeks prior to contraception. What is next equal pay, equal opportunity employment, etc.? Best part is that it is actually women in their government that are championing bills robbing other women of their rights because they are well off and don't need them.

[Alenarien]

You make it sound like there's a huge waiting list for parents wanting kids. There are many more children waiting to be adopted than parents looking to adopt. Most of these children grow up in foster care, shuttled from one family to the next. Let same sex couples adopt and this number gets better but there will always be more children than parents wanting them.

That is alas, unfortunately the case.

While I agree that people SHOULD be more responsible, it's a simple fact that people aren't. Even intelligent normally responsible people make huge mistakes. If someone isn't ready to have a child then why should we force them to have it. Because they screwed up? We're also going to condemn the child to grow up in a life that the mother isn't ready to provide? This puts even MORE pressure on the taxpayer. We pay more taxes taking care of single mothers and their children than we would paying for abortions.

To suggest that being careless in life should be without consequences is ridiculous, and puts abortion on the same pedestal as contraception. If someone flunks school due to drinking/partying, then they face the consequences of their actions which they chose to indulge in throughout life. If a woman just happens to have one of her eggs conceived due to opening her legs to every guy who bought her a drink and flashed her a nice smile, they they should face the consequences of those actions. Proposing that abortion be the panacea to morbid moments of preventable stupidity strikes me as a morally revealing notion.

One of the few things that separates us from the animals is our ability to control our reproduction. Removing that ability because of moral objection will never hold up in court and in the long run just costs the state taxpayers even more money in litigation. You want cheaper and safer? Promote every possible form of birth control available. The best way to avoid abortions is to not get pregnant in the first place. People are going to have sex no matter what some priest, pastor or state representative says. It's human nature to procreate. So make it so every one has fast easy access to multiple forms of birth control. In the long run it's much cheaper than trying to come up with ways to stop abortion or trying to take care of millions of foster kids.

And there we have it, abortion is nothing more than a contraceptive measure.

Besides, if someone that has unhindered access to birth control is dumb enough to still get knocked up....do you really want their genes being passed along?

Stupidity is not inheritable via genes.

[Finn mac cool]

To all the people making it sound as if the only thing planned parenthood does is give abortions. You're retarded. You know who you are.

[budong]

Pretty sure that's just what I said. The real solution is to educate people on contraception.

Ya I was agreeing with you for the most part. It probably sounds more combative than I intend. I just don't think you can legally pick and choose which abortions are ok and which aren't. Plus I don't think adoption is as viable an alternative as it's made out to be. I do agree that the bottom line is contraception.

My view is that abortions are a necessary evil. They should be something used as a last resort. The woman has to bear the enormous responsibility of either raising a child or terminating the pregnancy. Either way the woman has to shoulder it. If she terminates then she has to live with that the rest of her life. It's legal, so it's not for us to decide which reason is right or wrong. It's up to the woman. She should have choices. And if there are women who abuse abortions and use it as a form of birth control, then I honestly don't want them having children in the first place. There will always be extremes and it's not fair to deny the majority of women who abort because they're not ready because of the actions of a few.

[Xeviant]

Educating people on contraception is helpful, but fairly pointless.

If you'd bothered to have read above, you'd note that 75% of the decrease in teen pregnancy in the last 60yrs has been the result of contraception, so, it's working, just needs to be pushed more.

which is what planned parenthood does.

Note the part where I said PP was a good thing and it was wrong that their funding was being shorted.

Again, if you face a "mistake" that's what a morning after pill is for, not an abortion. Abortion should be a drastic last resort that's only available in certain situations. We make such distinctions on many similar things, like the taking of an adult life (ie. self defense, mental incapacity, etc.)

[darenyon]

the reason abortion is only 3% of planned parenthoods services is because its very much a last resort measure. it can be very damaging to a womans body.. not something you'd want to do very often.

[KeirAdish]

So... Having read the article and most of the topic...
I'm just gonna toss my two cents into the fountain.

I do not think its so much the fact that abortions are no longer covered by government that has people up in arms, but rather the fact that and I'm quoting from the news article.
"law means that thousands of women in the state may now go without life-saving cancer screenings, birth control and basic health care."
In other words these people that were previously being treated or tested for cancer when they can't afford to pay for it themselves can no longer get the help they need and have a higher risk of death due to this then before.
If I'm not mistaken, Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this also moves to make it much more difficult for women to obtain contraceptives such as IUDs?

While I don't think that little Jane from down the street should be able to go out party and get knocked up and then fill out a slip of paper and the government pays the doctor to abort the pregnancy, it is her right to go out and party and ultimately get knocked up, and I do believe the government should pay to at least keep the facility open and safe for women so that little Jane has the option to go fill out the slip of paper and pay for the abortion herself.

Now, while this specific instance is occurring due to a woman's beliefs I still wish to put out my opinion as "contradictory" as it may seem.
Its my personal belief that no Male of our species should ever have a say in whether a woman can or cannot have an abortion as the male populace doesn't have to undergo the physical changes that occur to the female body during a pregnancy whether it be intentional or unintentional, the option for the abortion should always be there.

EX: Jack and Jill are in their late 20's, Jack has a very nice job where he makes a lot of money, Jill is fortunate enough to be able to stay at home because Jack makes enough money to support them and give them a very good life, They decide to have a baby and Jill gets pregnant, about a month or two into the pregnancy Jack gets laid off due to the economy, and suddenly Jack and Jill's life is shattered, they have to sell their house and move into an apartment because Jack can't find a new job and Jill is pregnant so no sane company will hire her as she will soon leave to take care of her child or possibly be put on bed rest.
So Jack and Jill knowing they couldn't support this baby and don't want it to grow up in a bad environment, also knowing that they wouldn't be able to afford to take care of the baby because the only job Jack has been able to get a hold of is a fry cook at the Mcdonalds down the street, they decide to abort the pregnancy until they can get their life sorter back out again, but oh look, abortions are now illegal or facilities aren't funded and it costs a lot more then it used to because the facilities aren't getting the funding they need.

Now there is also so many other angles it can be looked at then just that one, such as party girl gets knocked up, condom breaks(which contrary to popular belief you cannot control), Rape(Most rapists don't think "Hey I better put on a condom wouldn't want to inconvenience this nice young lady with a pregnancy just because she was walking down the street")

and in truth, one persons religion should never be a deciding factor in whether abortions should be legal or even funded as not everyone follows that religion.

I don't think this funding should have been removed, but I do believe the decision to have an abortion, regardless of the ethical/moral implications, is not one that should ever be taken lightly, and you can bet your ass i'm going to be rather unashamed in publically branding people as the disgusting pieces of shit they are if their train of logic is anything like this:

I will say, those types of people... should just be locked up... >.>

[Eats Compost]

Some people seem to make out that there are people that don't use the pill/condoms and just have an abortion willy-nilly whenever they get pregnant. That's a bit of a bold claim, isn't it? And you can specifically single out these people through medical histories if needs be. Oh, and abortion is a hell of a lot less convenient than contraception. It's unlikely to crop up except for those times when that 1-0.1% contraceptive failure rate kicks in, which, by the way, would actually save the state money. Growing up costs the state an absurd amount of dosh.

This just smells religiously/ethically motivated rather than practically motivated.

[budong]

That is alas, unfortunately the case.



To suggest that being careless in life should be without consequences is ridiculous, and puts abortion on the same pedestal as contraception. If someone flunks school due to drinking/partying, then they face the consequences of their actions which they chose to indulge in throughout life. If a woman just happens to have one of her eggs conceived due to opening her legs to every guy who bought her a drink and flashed her a nice smile, they they should face the consequences of those actions. Proposing that abortion be the panacea to morbid moments of preventable stupidity strikes me as a morally revealing notion.



And there we have it, abortion is nothing more than a contraceptive measure.



Stupidity is not inheritable via genes.

You are making the 'if she needs an abortion she must be a slut' generalization. Bad form sir. I also never said your actions shouldn't have consequences. You are either not reading what I wrote or paraphrasing everything to fit your argument. Once again, bad form. I also never said abortion should be used as contraception. Rampant generalizations are rampant. You have misrepresented what I wrote three times and are now sentenced to journalistic purgatory to live out the rest of your days forced to watch Fox news.

Oh and I was just kidding about the stupid genes....learn to have a sense of humor

[Jarlathe]

I wasn't aiming my point about benefits at you, but good job taking it personally.

The two are linked, and at the current time in my country (elections tomorrow) the Socialist party is looking life they're getting in. If they do, France will be the next Greece, and all this wellfare state gone wrong shite will maybe show just how badly it's gone wrong.
Accidents can be avoided, and should be whenever possible don't you think ?
Now if only I can figure out a way to not get pregnant in the first place... I'll get back to you on that.

I don't understand your point on Planned Parenthood comparing it to insurance, must be a language barrier, and I'm too tired to bother at the moment.
I still maintain that abortions should be paid for by the person wanting one. I'd rather my money was spent elsewhere than on some slag who felt the need to not keep her legs closed or use the various forms of weach contraception available.

Jesus, you have to be one of the most close minded vile people I've run across on this board. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Kivimetsan]

Almost all entitlements are a self sustaining system. I swear, the misinformation that Fox News throws out is insane.

Actually you're wrong. No welfare scheme is self sustaining when an economy crashes. Also the 'Buffet rule' you're eluding to is for families with a combined wage of $250K a year, thats not the rich... THATS THE MIDDLE CLASS! (maybe im wrong with that figure, but its still a tax hike on middle class and you dont tax your way out of economic crisis').

I dont watch fox news either, although it is rather entertaining :P

So yeah, you dont increase taxes on people when you want to get the economy going, you want people to invest and spend there own money, just because someone makes a million $ a year doesn't make them evil or less entitled to keep there own property. See people like you are the ones that keep this kind of system floating around, because you just want shit for free. Well, welcome to reality, the world is about to crumble, enjoy your entitlements when all that happens.

Im also I finance major, so I know what the hell im talking about.

---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 12:28 AM ----------

Jesus, you have to be one of the most close minded vile people I've run across on this board. Welcome to my ignore list.

He went a bit overboard, but I agree...

Why should my hard earned money that could be used to purchase things I NEED because I EARNED IT be used for someone who wants to kill there unborn child? I never gave permission for gun weilding government beauracrats to steal my property, I never even had a chance to fight the tax laws BECAUSE I WANSNT BORN.

Just because you were born into a welfare/entitlement loving society, doesn't mean its right.