5 man dungeons lfr,normal and heroic difficulty : a better future for wow

[Deadlybonne]

Hello

its strange that blizard has not had this idea. But a better way to maximize the full potential of 5 man dungeon would be to have lfr=lfd difficulty, normal and mini raids difficulty equal to current raiding content.
When people queue for valo points and their weekly valor, lfd would use very easy difficulty since blizzard wants people to enoy them and too hard difficulty would be annoying to do your weekly runs. Normal would be like old heroic difficult or a little easier.
But raiding difficulty would be as hard as DS at the start, this would give players a very large options of content to do.

It seems blizzard is somewhat trying this with challenge modes but i think turning all 5 mans in miniraids will satisfy everyone. Tuning dungeons in difficulty is less work then making new content. I have no idea why blizzard doesnt do this.

i also believe bad players would be able to learn to play better in raiding difficulty dungeons which u can`t queue for and offcourse have to get your own groups together. People dont have patience because they dont wanne be saved in a bad long raid. Having a miniraid people would have less problems with this because there would be other dungeons to do. they have the main raid in 10 or 25 to do. overal it would hurt less having a bad group because there would be enough content. since now content is limited people tend to ask crazy requirements for people to join raids like high gear levels or even achievement for pvp boss which is stupid easy 5 months later.

imagine wow where u level up and do dungeons easy mode, u start to raid and gear up. at the same time offraids u could do a miniraid where u can actually have fun. also bad players would be able to progress also as they acquire more gear near the end of expansion they gonna be able to do more then lfr.

5 man content gets obsolete fast, adding a challenging rewarding small style raid would be great. i know one of most fun moments i remember is doing dungeon content as it more personal and everyone has to do their best and u wipe a few times and the reward feels good. i remember wipes in botanica a 4 hour dungeon, i remember shattered halls. Overall i think the same rules should apply for 5 mans as there are for bigger raids. u have lfr, u have normal and u have heroic.

Put these dungeons on good spots, create some easy daily quest nearby and people would be able to go out in the world to keep going to these dungeons and while people wait for a slacker they could do some quests.

there really isnt a better way to create massive content very easy and everyone can progress. everyone will have fun at the level they can play.

ps: it might even bring back world pvp as 5 man dungeons won`t be obsolete as fast and if blizzard creates some content around it like daily quests, people would be travelling in small groups and thus instead of getting gibbed u could have fights that get out of control as 5 man groups come and go and join the battle

the only downside would be that there would be too much content hehe. this could be fixed to starting with only a few dungeons on raiding difficulty and then overtime opening up the others, so people wouldnt get overwelmed with like 40 raidbosses to do hehe. Or they could put in ulduar style unlocks so only when u are able to do enough dps or certain mechanic that the hardest difficulty would activate.
There is alot of cool stuff blizzard could do and overnight u have 6x more content to enjoy from noob aswell as hardcore.

there probably would be 5 man raiding guilds popping up, people who like a challenge but just wanne log and raid. People who quit raiding but still enjoy a short raid once and a while.

[DreamCast]

Well any suggestion to make the easiest game to clear content easier they would probably implement. They are also testing LFR on monkeys now and will set the difficulty to that level going fwd.

However I would love blizzard to introduce all raiding content with a 5 man option just to piss the 10 man raiders off and so they can feel what it is like for the 25 man raiding guilds.

[Talen]

However I would love blizzard to introduce all raiding content with a 5 man option just to piss the 10 man raiders off and so they can feel what it is like for the 25 man raiding guilds.

It wouldn't work.
.

You literally canot form a raid with just one party because the role combos can't be formed. You end up cutting mechnics which neuters the encounter making it less interesting and, at the same time, increasing the difficult beyond what is expected for a dungeon group. Whats more, the main reason 10s are more popular lies with the organisational difficulties of 25s, and that won't be as big an issue with 5s.

There'd be an impact, but not as big as that experienced by 25s

EJL

[Deadlybonne]

Well im not talking about making 5 man to be actual raids, but they would feel like that because they are hard, and the first time u probably will need some time to beat some bosses. Offcourse due to being in a smaller group the bosses could be easier, but i doubt that, when tuned correctly 5 man can be as hard as 10 men group or 25 as u only have 1 healer and few cd's.
But the point is the 5 mans would still be a challenge for those who like raiding. Maybe this difficulty should drop gear below actual raiding ilevel but pretty close, or they could invent a system where u have some kind of tokens that u can use to fill in missing gaps in gear if your unlucky.

Overal the main point would be that 5 mans will be used pretty long into the expansion and can provide fun for all skilllevels.

PS: im not talking about making all raids 5 men, im talking about upgraded 5 man dungeons to raiding dificulity bosses. Providing a way to progress even if u dont raid 10 or 25. U will be busy for a while since normally they release about 5 dungeons.

[Talen]

when tuned correctly 5 man can be as hard as 10 men group or 25 as u only have 1 healer and few cd's.

You can easily design a 5 man that can be harder, more difficult and require more effort than a full 25 man raid. You'd simply have to do so without the enhanced mechanics multiple parties allow and it is those, and the enhanced coordination and commmunication required that define a raid.

Difficulty, however, isn't the issue.

Blizzards current policy is to reward effort. Facing a challenge of the same difficulty will give you the smae loot quality. As part of this, there is an established progressions.....solo becomes groups becomes raid, and each step up allows for greater communication, interaction and a wider variety of encounter mechanics that ensures the previous level cannot handle it, at least at the appropriate level.

Rewarding 5 mans breaks this progression. Further, to keep it fair and withint he boundraies you would need to akmke the 5 man version hard. Harder than player expect a 5 man to be, harder than players want a 5 man to be. What they will expect and accept from a raid they will reject from a 5 man.

Which is a pity in a way.

As a result, you can't form 5 man raids because they won't be able to handle all the mechanics a raid group can handle. You'd have to remove mechanics to bring it down to an encounter that can be handled by a 5man group and at that point, you are designing a dungeon run. Players, overall, won't accept a 5 man with the difficulty of a raid because the encounters won't be as interesting and the organisational difficulties nowhere near as great as 25s. And Blizzard won't want to implement it because it messes up the progression scheme of solo>>>group>>>raid they use.

PS: im not talking about making all raids 5 men, im talking about upgraded 5 man dungeons to raiding dificulity bosses. Providing a way to progress even if u dont raid 10 or 25. U will be busy for a while since normally they release about 5 dungeons.

Not going to happen. 5s will always need to be easier than 10s simply because of their nature and place in the system. It would be nice to see a 5 man "scenario" or "operation" or "mission" or whatever that did up the difficulty but there is a limit to what can be done and what will be accepted.

EJL

[Deleted]

Well any suggestion to make the easiest game to clear content easier they would probably implement. They are also testing LFR on monkeys now and will set the difficulty to that level going fwd.

However I would love blizzard to introduce all raiding content with a 5 man option just to piss the 10 man raiders off and so they can feel what it is like for the 25 man raiding guilds.

Indeed m8. Atm looking only my 2 servers that im currently playing and i can say. People from 10-man since 25-man are non existence, have they're firelord title and Savior of azeroth but they dont have a kill of Sinestra.
I really loled that (saw logs saddly ~world of logs~ ) and guild with 8/8heroic in Ds and amazing gear ofc wipefesting on Sinestra for more than 60 times..4 raid days.
This game for 10-man i can say was T11. And after heroics became for friends and my girl that wanna spend few hours **
You want Firelord title ? Spend 6 minutes on ragg 10-man heroic...phew phew....(Ty god that there wasn't any other tier because this encounter in 10-man was gonna be simply a Bl/tw/heroism )
So yes why not since after all the majority of the players want something easy and in no time.
Im sure it would work.
I would prefer spending 2 hours raiding rather than doing hundreds of wipes

[Deadlybonne]

i don't see the problem with 5 man dungeons have the same model as raids. Raids are lfr, normal and heroic. Why wouldnt 5 man dungeons follow the same model?
Nobody has to do the heroic 5 man dungeons, people would level up in the lfr difficulty, when they are max level they would do the normal difficult and if they got the skill and gear they would progress to heroic raiding difficulty.

Offcourse the bosses will be easier then real raids as mechanics would be few but the damage could be adjusted so it wouldnt be easymode and thus provide a nice challenge for a while.

Why waste content? The only reason we run 5 man now is for valor points because we need too. I believe alot of the playerbase would enjoy these miniraids that could give purple loot, while the other difficulties give green and blue loot. So epic is epic again even in dungeons.

The best dungeons people enjoy where in burning crusade because they offered a challenge for a long time, they could pown u if u made a mistake even at the end of the expansion.

My point is, if the progression model works for raids, then it should work for dungeons too. And the content they make would be put to much better use. People don't like doing dungeons because once u start raiding the gear level reward is too low, by having the same progression, it would still make sense for raiders to get some extra loot to fill in gaps. People who don't have time to raid, would have alot of nice 5 man to do.

i think this model is alot better then what blizzard is doing. Longlasting content is the way to go.

ps: as said, lfd would not be able to be used to queue, u would need to form your own groups, which might get people on their own server together, like it used to be. Small social guilds would form which eventually players will grow and move into raids which will create a better playerbase.

[Deleted]

The only way to make the heroic instances heroic again, is to take them away from the "gear for raid" logic. Heroic Dungeons should award previous tier heroic gear, thus, above raid LFR and slightly below relevant tier normals.
The heroics would award valors also, but valors could be also obtained by RFD version of the dungeon and gear half a tier behind current LFR gear.
Thus with current values you get
1) RDF with 378 ilv rewards and valors
2) LFR with 384 ilv rewards and valors
3) Heroic Dungeons (of current tier) 391 ilv rewards and valors
4) Normal mode raid 397 ilv rewards and valors
5) Heroic mode raid 410 ilv rewards and valors.

By putting heroic mode dungeon reward above LFR reward, you provide the justification for hard mode, you give to the people the access to the gear needed through automated tools, and heroic dungeons, will be there for those that want smt more than facerolls!

[Spotnick]

People keep forgetting that making 5 man harder than LFR makes no sense because the gear in LFR is better.

I too preferred when dungeons were harder, but then again, my goal is to raid and I couldn't care less about the 5 man and I just want the gear to have fun with those 16 new bosses as fast as possible.

So let the casuals have their content the way they like it.. personally, it's just a time sinker to get the required ilvl for LFR right now.

[Deleted]

People keep forgetting that making 5 man harder than LFR makes no sense because the gear in LFR is better.

I too preferred when dungeons were harder, but then again, my goal is to raid and I couldn't care less about the 5 man and I just want the gear to have fun with those 16 new bosses as fast as possible.

So let the casuals have their content the way they like it.. personally, it's just a time sinker to get the required ilvl for LFR right now.

I suggest to read my post right above yours.
Heroic dungeons is a term that contradicts the term dungeon finder.
You cannot have a heroic dungeon and dungeon finder. People fails in a automated group will nerf the dungeon to the point that it is not "heroic"
You can have
1) Dungeon finder and Heroic Dungeon. 2 different things like LFR and normal/heroic version of the raid.
2) Heroic Dungeon only
3) Dungeon Finder dungeon only

Since (2) is not posible anymore and (3) is pointless, i suggest (1), and in my previous post i give the details on how loot should be handled. (Heroic Dungeon awarding higher gear than LFR raid).

[Deleted]

Indeed m8. Atm looking only my 2 servers that im currently playing and i can say. People from 10-man since 25-man are non existence, have they're firelord title and Savior of azeroth but they dont have a kill of Sinestra.
I really loled that (saw logs saddly ~world of logs~ ) and guild with 8/8heroic in Ds and amazing gear ofc wipefesting on Sinestra for more than 60 times..4 raid days.
This game for 10-man i can say was T11. And after heroics became for friends and my girl that wanna spend few hours **
You want Firelord title ? Spend 6 minutes on ragg 10-man heroic...phew phew....(Ty god that there wasn't any other tier because this encounter in 10-man was gonna be simply a Bl/tw/heroism )
So yes why not since after all the majority of the players want something easy and in no time.
Im sure it would work.
I would prefer spending 2 hours raiding rather than doing hundreds of wipes

You cant really outgear the dispell game on sinestra, you can make parts easier but thats it
Even now with DS, people will still wipe on raggy and have a learning curve there aswell.

Either way, by the sounds of it, i doubt you have killed either of the 3 bosses you mention lol.

OT, no, lfr, normal, heroic, ="easy, normal, hard", you dont need super easy, easy, kinda normal, normal, harder, hard, very hard etc :s
Not to mention the balance issues and gear lvls etc, just not worth the development time.

[Deleted]

Its probably going to happen after mop and we will get a big announcement with: "after the immense succes of challenge modes we are introducing 5 man raids so that you and your close knit group of friends can take on all the content". Why is it a raid because we from blizzard entertainment said it was a raid so get over it...

[Deadlybonne]

well the ilevel of raiding dungeons would need to be the same as 25men lfr then. Giving people the options to do lfr for valor, or do some hard 5 men dungeon with equal ilevel. Overal people would be bored less since u gonna have alot of options to get valor and u can change it up weekly.