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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Delias View Post
    Fun, a foreign concept apparently.
    Not having fun? Don't run the dungeon. Can't find anything fun to do anymore? Stop playing until an expansion comes out. Artificially extending the gameplay to convince you to continue playing when you are no longer having fun isn't what GW2 is about. If you WANT to grind for stuff, that 'pretty dress' is there. However, since you do not NEED that pretty dress to continue, you have the choice of running the dungeon or not running it.
    And fun is running the same instance more than once, without any reward in the end? Please, spare we the noble chivalry. You know, just as well as i do, that character improvement is the heart and soul of any rpg. 99 out of a 100 people will not go back to killing a boss, if the boss gives you nothing when it dies. If you say this is not true, you are a liar, or the on "saved soul" i have never come across.

    ALL homepages regarding mmorpgs have sections dedicated to theorycrafting and gear composition. Dont be so naive to belive, that people want to play something just "for fun"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowe View Post
    You obviously didn't get his point or chose to ignore it.

    There is a finite/natural cap to everyone's personal skill. Otherwise anyone playing WoW for 5+ years would be a super player. While it's true that most players will see a noticeable increase in their "skill" within the first 2-3 months of the game it tends to cap out after that. Time spent playing only really enhances your knowledge of classes, abilities and builds and possibly how to counter them. But that's only a portion of what determines "skill".

    Many other aspects don't improve so naturally and thus there is a limit to how much an individual can improve on his/her game.

    Claiming personal skill improvement will somehow contribute to the longevity of the game is false for the vast, vast majority of the player base.
    Wait.. what? Seriously? Familiarity with the game decreases the amount of time your brain needs to spend making "new" decisions and only constantly makes you better. People don't just practice sports or study a subject for two hours because that's the "finite ability time cap." Knowing that there are people out there that actually believe something as under-achieving as this is incredibly depressing..

    And, yes, I understand the underlying point. Just.. please tell me that you don't actually believe people have built in skill-caps. Perhaps you need to take a step back from RPGs for a little?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    This is exactly my point. Thank you sir. Other people seem narrow minded on the subject. Longivity is exactly my concern.

    When you play your character good. you know the tactics. You have defeated the boss - What will keep you coming back, if the only reward is a pretty dress????? And not something that actually helps you in the next battle, or the next time you face the same boss?
    I often compare games to Team Fortress 2, it's this thing I do. I have everything I want in Team Fortress 2, except for the plague mask the Medic can have. There is no way to get "better" items in the game, only sidegrades. And still people want to collect the weapons, or even the completely unnecessary hats. Because the game is great fun.
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  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    And fun is running the same instance more than once, without any reward in the end? Please, spare we the noble chivalry. You know, just as well as i do, that character improvement is the heart and soul of any rpg. 99 out of a 100 people will not go back to killing a boss, if the boss gives you nothing when it dies. If you say this is not true, you are a liar, or the on "saved soul" i have never come across.

    ALL homepages regarding mmorpgs have sections dedicated to theorycrafting and gear composition. Dont be so naive to belive, that people want to play something just "for fun"
    What makes you think GW2 will be different in this respect? Heck, people here on this forum are already theory crafting from beta play time.

    by the way, pulling numbers out of your ass makes you look like an idiot.

    Honestly, if you're only playing for reward and not fun in the first place something is wrong. And if you're not having fun you don't have to play the content, go do something else, no one is forcing you.

    Why else would anyone ever play the majority of console games, or Skyrim long after they get daedric armor?
    Last edited by Malthurius; 2012-05-06 at 04:56 PM.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthurius View Post
    What makes you think GW2 will be different in this respect? Heck, people here on this forum are already theory crafting from beta play time.

    by the way, pulling numbers out of your ass makes you look like an idiot.

    Honestly, if you're only playing for reward and not fun in the first place something is wrong. And if you're not having fun you don't have to play the content, go do something else, no one is forcing you.

    Why else would anyone ever play the majority of console games, or Skyrim long after they get daedric armor?
    Question for you mr. "i dont pull numbers out of my ass": How do you know people ARE playing Skyrim after that?

    The difference here being: GW2 is an mmorpg, with a need for a constant player base for it to succeed. No players - no groups - game dies. Skyrim and other console games are NOT team based. They are single player games mostly. you play, you finish it, you put it away, and come back from time to time.

    If noone is bothered by this, and you all seem to be happy playing it as a single player game for a while - fine. I for one would like to play GW 2 and KEEP playing, with people on the servers, and not end it after a few months.

    Hellooooo, is this thing on? Am i not getting throug here?? Hellooooooo???

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    GW2 is an mmorpg, with a need for a constant player base for it to succeed. No players - no groups - game dies.
    GW1 still has people playing it, and it has not had an expansion for 5years. It also had no gear progression. Actually, it had significantly less than GW2 does. Your argument may be flawed.

  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    Question for you mr. "i dont pull numbers out of my ass": How do you know people ARE playing Skyrim after that?
    I know I did, and I know people still play skyrim that have long since beaten it.

    The difference here being: GW2 is an mmorpg, with a need for a constant player base for it to succeed. No players - no groups - game dies. Skyrim and other console games are NOT team based. They are single player games mostly. you play, you finish it, you put it away, and come back from time to time.
    Yes.

    If noone is bothered by this, and you all seem to be happy playing it as a single player game for a while - fine. I for one would like to play GW 2 and KEEP playing, with people on the servers, and not end it after a few months.
    What makes you think people will leave? I want to play with people on servers as well, and I'm sure everyone else does too... so people will stay to play with people because social activity changes the game and makes different experiences even if you're doing the same content thrice. Even then they will add new content. It's not like you'll always do that one dungeon the entire game.

    Hellooooo, is this thing on? Am i not getting throug here?? Hellooooooo???
    Herp a derp
    Last edited by Malthurius; 2012-05-06 at 05:14 PM.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthurius View Post
    I know I did, and I know people still play skyrim that have long since beaten it.


    Yes.


    What makes you think people will leave? I want to play with people on servers as well, and I'm sure everyone else does too... so people will stay to play with people because social activity changes the game and makes different experiences even if you're doing the same content thrice.



    Herp a derp
    Dont get me wrong, ill be playing. But see what happened to a game like swtor. The gearing was there - but it was too easy to gear. Now nobody cares. Well theres your occasional fanboy for sure, but generally it quickly became boring.

    I played GW 1, and loved it, but only for a while. Rift is still fun to come back to, but they keep adding so much flavour,and yet its more or less deserted.

    I just dont want GW2 to be the "burger of the month" for me.....

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    If noone is bothered by this, and you all seem to be happy playing it as a single player game for a while - fine. I for one would like to play GW 2 and KEEP playing, with people on the servers, and not end it after a few months.
    Well, historical evidence points to quite a few people playing a game with no vertical progress ad infinity for years.



    ^ still highly active player base.


    I played GW 1, and loved it, but only for a while. Rift is still fun to come back to, but they keep adding so much flavour,and yet its more or less deserted.
    A slash who had 160 people on Ember Isle alone this morning on Faeblight. There were so many people in the square of Meridian last night I could not see the NPCs on Keenblade.

    Where are you pulling these wild statements from?
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-05-06 at 05:21 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freehoof View Post
    Because of course you can't improve your character's skills, abilities, and powers in GW2. And God forbid improving your own skill at playing said character. Nope, the only reason to do anything in GW2 is to be fancy. Guess it's not the game for you.

    It's what makes a whole lot of people interested in playing and staying in an MMO, to grind stats.


    EDIT. For example, what would wow pvp outside of the rated bgs and arena be without gear? It's the most boring pvp ever and it's absolutely unbalanced.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    Dont get me wrong, ill be playing. But see what happened to a game like swtor. The gearing was there - but it was too easy to gear. Now nobody cares. Well theres your occasional fanboy for sure, but generally it quickly became boring.

    I played GW 1, and loved it, but only for a while. Rift is still fun to come back to, but they keep adding so much flavour,and yet its more or less deserted.

    I just dont want GW2 to be the "burger of the month" for me.....
    I think the biggest advantage that GW2 has over those games is that all the content is challenging and relevant forever. Questing doesn't become throw away content. You can get bored of the dungeons but then there is an entire relevant world full of large public bosses and events that can still present a challenge for a reward relevant forever; karma and gold and social interaction.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    I just dont want GW2 to be the "burger of the month" for me.....
    If you are talking about interest FOR YOU, I can understand your concern and sympathize. However, to say that no one will be interested without a gear grind in an MMO is just silly, as it has been proven to not be the case with past games. As you have specified that you meant "burger of the month" for yourself, it is more understandable.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    And fun is running the same instance more than once, without any reward in the end? Please, spare we the noble chivalry. You know, just as well as i do, that character improvement is the heart and soul of any rpg. 99 out of a 100 people will not go back to killing a boss, if the boss gives you nothing when it dies. If you say this is not true, you are a liar, or the on "saved soul" i have never come across.

    ALL homepages regarding mmorpgs have sections dedicated to theorycrafting and gear composition. Dont be so naive to belive, that people want to play something just "for fun"
    And fun is running the same instance over and over to get gear to make the instance easier? There's really no fundamental difference. If an act is fun, then it's fun. There is never a situation where an instance that you aren't having fun doing becomes fun as a result of gear dropping at the end. You are confusing "fun" and "compulsion".

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not really, no. I feel GW1 was more complex.
    Just no, I will explain in a second why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Most of my GW1 guild felt the same during BWE1; calling it "palm-smash", "kiddie" and so on.
    Butthurt - nothing else. Just like every HC fan of any game that has a sequel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    However, I do feel there were more meaningful choices/cerebral engagement in build & counter creation in Guild Wars 1.
    GW1 had HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS possible skill combinations. Shame no one is talking about how only 0,001% of all those combinations were any good. Even less builds were used in top competitive tier. Simply because most skills were VERY heavily dependent on other skills. If you took X skill, you had take Y one or else it would be just pointless.

    Between 5 different trait lines, many possible traits, WIDE range of runes (with interesting effects and combinations) , gems and sigils GW2 has the most robust and varying build system. I think, people still don't grasp the number of possible builds because they see only 5wpn skills and 5 utility skills. I'm currently working on GW2 app and let me tell you.. GW1 looks pretty funny comparing to GW2 when it comes to VIABLE build combinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Though the combat style of both Guild Wars games is rather shallow overall from an intellectual standpoint I feel. GW2 is merely more twitch based gameplay than the first.
    I dunno.. only MMO that has anything on GW2's combat is Tera - but that game is for paedophiles. so it doesn't count ;p

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    Question for you mr. "i dont pull numbers out of my ass": How do you know people ARE playing Skyrim after that?

    The difference here being: GW2 is an mmorpg, with a need for a constant player base for it to succeed. No players - no groups - game dies. Skyrim and other console games are NOT team based. They are single player games mostly. you play, you finish it, you put it away, and come back from time to time.

    If noone is bothered by this, and you all seem to be happy playing it as a single player game for a while - fine. I for one would like to play GW 2 and KEEP playing, with people on the servers, and not end it after a few months.

    Hellooooo, is this thing on? Am i not getting throug here?? Hellooooooo???
    If doing something is boring, how does getting higher stat gear at the end make it fun?

  16. #36
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If doing something is boring, how does getting higher stat gear at the end make it fun?
    you remember gamesharks during the 64bit era? where you'll beat the game then go "let me try that with unlimited ammo..." maybe thats why :|
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    Just no, I will explain in a second why.
    Well that certainly is an opinion. One I do not agree with, obviously. So yea.

    Butthurt - nothing else. Just like every HC fan of any game that has a sequel.
    Perhaps. I do not play GW1 as intensely as they.

    GW1 had HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS possible skill combinations. Shame no one is talking about how only 0,001% of all those combinations were any good.
    "Viability" has nothing to do with depth of gameplay or thought. It's sorta up to you if want to play a PVx build or not.

    Between 5 different trait lines, many possible traits, WIDE range of runes (with interesting effects and combinations) , gems and sigils GW2 has the most robust and varying build system.
    Which is the same as GW1. Really not seeing how transposing the interface of GW1 insignias, runes and attribute system makes it a deeper experience.

    There are runes, insigs and determined traits you are going to want all the same in GW2 as in the GW1 for a task. Signet/Signet/Signet/Signet Warrior or Dagger/Dagger Air/Water/Arcane Arcane3x Elementalist for example.

    I suppose there is more malleability on the fly in GW2. Though other games do that better with greater depth of consideration. The function of gameplay systems is pretty much the same as in GW1 w/ twitch elements added. /shrug

    I am not particularly taxed by GW2.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Syldarin View Post
    Question for you mr. "i dont pull numbers out of my ass": How do you know people ARE playing Skyrim after that?

    The difference here being: GW2 is an mmorpg, with a need for a constant player base for it to succeed. No players - no groups - game dies. Skyrim and other console games are NOT team based. They are single player games mostly. you play, you finish it, you put it away, and come back from time to time.

    If noone is bothered by this, and you all seem to be happy playing it as a single player game for a while - fine. I for one would like to play GW 2 and KEEP playing, with people on the servers, and not end it after a few months.

    Hellooooo, is this thing on? Am i not getting throug here?? Hellooooooo???
    Take a minute and go to the gamefaqs forums for skyrim whether Xbox or pc and you will find people still playing long after doing everything. GW2 is F2P. There is one cost at the purchase of the game. Spend your months finishing all content and becoming #1 in all aspects of the game and when you finally are bored stop playing. All you are doing here is trolling because you can't know the minds of everyone and know all of their opinions. GW2 is not trying to cater to everyone in the world (although I'd bet would want everyone to atleast try the game). It's just like EVE Online, they found a niche and are going to provide that niche.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well that certainly is an opinion. One I do not agree with, obviously. So yea.

    Perhaps. I do not play GW1 as intensely as they.

    "Viability" has nothing to do with depth of gameplay or thought. It's sorta up to you if want to play a PVx build or not.

    Which is the same as GW1. Really not seeing how transposing the interface of GW1 insignias, runes and attribute system makes it a deeper experience.

    There are runes, insigs and determined traits you are going to want all the same in GW2 as in the GW1 for a task. Signet/Signet/Signet/Signet Warrior or Dagger/Dagger Air/Water/Arcane Arcane3x Elementalist for example.

    I suppose there is more malleability on the fly in GW2. Though other games do that better with greater depth of consideration. The function of gameplay systems is pretty much the same as in GW1 w/ twitch elements added. /shrug

    I am not particularly taxed by GW2.
    At high level play, you are kind of forced into a handful of viable builds for every class in GW1, especially in PvP. ANet specifically admitted this problem and said it was part of the motivation behind giving you the five weapon skills. They wanted to balance viability with choice. Depth is a function of viable choices, not just more choices.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Freehoof View Post
    Because of course you can't improve your character's skills, abilities, and powers in GW2. And God forbid improving your own skill at playing said character. Nope, the only reason to do anything in GW2 is to be fancy. Guess it's not the game for you.
    What, no stat grind? BS. I HATE being able to eat the carrot!

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