GW2 far more complex than GW1?

[clevin]

Wait.. what? Seriously? Familiarity with the game decreases the amount of time your brain needs to spend making "new" decisions and only constantly makes you better. People don't just practice sports or study a subject for two hours because that's the "finite ability time cap." Knowing that there are people out there that actually believe something as under-achieving as this is incredibly depressing..

And, yes, I understand the underlying point. Just.. please tell me that you don't actually believe people have built in skill-caps. Perhaps you need to take a step back from RPGs for a little?

But people do have skill caps. Pick a world class athlete, musician, actor, whatever. There are lots of lub players, amateur musicians, etc that practice a lot... but the top people are just better. Why? Different skill caps or, if you will, more talent. .

IN games, this is partly based on the person and how they process information and react to it, but it's also partly based on how much any given person cares. I'm very good at playing my hunter in WoW. Could I be better? yes, but the rewards for doing that are minimal... I'm probably at 90-95% of what my toon can do. Familiarity with the game might decrease the time you spend making decisions, but that flattens out at some point. People cap out for various reasons - they're good enough to overcome any in-game obstacle that interests them, they physically are unable to do 'twitch' actions faster than they do, etc.

The OP raises an interesting point - in WoW and most games I gear up my toon partly to make the current level of encounters move from 'just barely able to do' to 'fairly easy'. But once I'm there... why keep playing? For example, both of my WoW toons are geared enough to do any of the heroics easily, do well in LFR and to take on normal DS if I wanted to. So why do I play? Well, partly to hang out with friends, but the fact is that what we do in-game is run the same stuff over and over. Eh. That gets boring.

In GW2, we'll see that same thing - at some point, running the same content over and over gets boring (this is true in WoW too - the upgrade hunt only delays it by giving you a reason to come back). Of course, I can quit until a DLC/xpac, etc... and that's an intriguing idea, because it incentivizes ANet to put out more content so I come back. If a group of players quit and are away for long enough, the odds that are that more and more will not come back as the time to new content increases. This seems, to me, to align the interests of the game developer (we want people to regularly play and thus need to keep them interested with new content) to mine (I'm bored with current stuff and want new stuff).

[NineSpine]

But people do have skill caps. Pick a world class athlete, musician, actor, whatever. There are lots of lub players, amateur musicians, etc that practice a lot... but the top people are just better. Why? Different skill caps or, if you will, more talent. .

IN games, this is partly based on the person and how they process information and react to it, but it's also partly based on how much any given person cares. I'm very good at playing my hunter in WoW. Could I be better? yes, but the rewards for doing that are minimal... I'm probably at 90-95% of what my toon can do. Familiarity with the game might decrease the time you spend making decisions, but that flattens out at some point. Athletes can practice forever, but some are better than others. Why? Because of innate skill/talent caps. Not everyone is the same. I don't see why the idea of a skill cap per person is shocking. People cap out for various reasons - they're good enough to overcome any in-game obstacle that interests them, they physically are unable to do 'twitch' actions faster than they do, etc.

The OP raises an interesting point - in WoW and most games I gear up my toon partly to make the current level of encounters move from 'just barely able to do' to 'fairly easy'. But once I'm there... why keep playing? For example, both of my WoW toons are geared enough to do any of the heroics easily, do well in LFR and to take on normal DS if I wanted to. So why do I play? Well, partly to hang out with friends, but the fact is that what we do in-game is run the same stuff over and over. Eh. That gets boring.

In GW2, we'll see that same thing - at some point, running the same content over and over gets boring (this is true in WoW too - the upgrade hunt only delays it by giving you a reason to come back). Of course, I can quit until a DLC/xpac, etc... and that's an intriguing idea, because it incentivizes ANet to put out more content so I come back. If a group of players quit and are away for long enough, the odds that are that more and more will not come back as the time to new content increases. This seems, to me, to align the interests of the game developer (we want people to regularly play and thus need to keep them interested with new content) to mine (I'm bored with current stuff and want new stuff).

Tansmog gear hunting in WoW has become a huge part of the endgame. There's a gigantic uptick in people running old content to get the gear. Now, imagine if all of those raids and dungeons in the game never went down in difficulty. Imagine if Molten Core was pretty much still the Molten Core of vanilla. Suddenly, getting all of that transmog gear is no longer a few faceroll hours a week, but something that takes months of playing through challenging content. That's how GW2 is from day one, and forever on. There is so much content that you could do something different every single night for a month very, very easily. In WoW, you pretty much beat your face against current content and that's it unless you want to faceroll for some transmog gear. I think you significantly underestimate the effect of gear being flat.

[Fencers]

At high level play, you are kind of forced into a handful of viable builds for every class in GW1, especially in PvP.

I do not PVP. No respect for it.

I ran everything GW1 had to offer in PVE. Wasn't pigeonholed to any particular build. Some skill combinations were more sensible for the task- like having a Gash or MS buff. This is no different from GW2 PVE.

ANet specifically admitted this problem and said it was part of the motivation behind giving you the five weapon skills.

That's lovely. Still the same though. An inevitability of games with numbers and counters.

Major difference was I didn't have to run to town/outpost to swap out skills in GW2 when I needed a mortal strike or cripple.

[NineSpine]

I do not PVP. No respect for it.

That seems a little.. awkwardly strong of a statement... for a video game.

I ran everything GW1 had to offer in PVE. Wasn't pigeonholed to any particular build. Some skill combinations were more sensible for the task- like having a Gash or MS buff. This is no different from GW2 PVE.

That's lovely. Still the same though. An inevitability of games with numbers and counters.

Major difference was I didn't have to run to town/outpost to swap out skills in GW2 when I needed a mortal strike or cripple.

Compared to the sheer variety of builds though, you were pigeonholed. I don't think it's a stretch to say that literally 98% of the available builds for any particular class were actually not viable at high level play. You were probably competent enough to avoid those builds, but that doesn't change that your actual choices were far less than what was technically available. Sure, there were a respectable number of options that were viable, but the reality is that most of those options boiled down to a bunch of synergistic abilities and a couple of skill choices where you could be creative, making the viable options far less than the actual options. In GW2, unless you put your trait skills randomly all over the place, it seems *difficult* to actually make a build that is unusable.

[Fencers]

That seems a little.. awkwardly strong of a statement... for a video game.

Well, I am strongly opinionated and not too concerned with matching general video game audience views on gameplay systems.

Compared to the sheer variety of builds though, you were pigeonholed. I don't think it's a stretch to say that literally 98% of the available builds for any particular class were actually not viable at high level play. You were probably competent enough to avoid those builds, but that doesn't change that your actual choices were far less than what was technically available. Sure, there were a respectable number of options that were viable, but the reality is that most of those options boiled down to a bunch of synergistic abilities and a couple of skill choices where you could be creative, making the viable options far less than the actual options. In GW2, unless you put your trait skills randomly all over the place, it seems *difficult* to actually make a build that is unusable.

I really don't see how that is different or can not be applied to GW2 same as GW1.

"In GW1, unless you place attribute skills randomly all over the place, it is difficult to actually make a build that is unusable."

Statement is pretty much true of almost any MMO offering stat/skills choices. Reverse is true as well in GW2; at higher end GW2 gameplay it is fairly obvious there are trait/weapon/skill combinations which are more suitable than others.

Where exactly is the difference in; "Oh let me set this bar up for UW" and "Let me set my build up for Ruins of Orr". The only difference is I can do it on the fly in GW2 easily-- which is indeed welcomed though more limited than other recent games.

[BlairPhoenix]

And fun is running the same instance more than once, without any reward in the end? Please, spare we the noble chivalry. You know, just as well as i do, that character improvement is the heart and soul of any rpg. 99 out of a 100 people will not go back to killing a boss, if the boss gives you nothing when it dies. If you say this is not true, you are a liar, or the on "saved soul" i have never come across.

ALL homepages regarding mmorpgs have sections dedicated to theorycrafting and gear composition. Dont be so naive to belive, that people want to play something just "for fun"

Really? I thought the heart and soul of an rpg was like...the story...I mean, I didn't beat bosses in Chrono Trigger because they gave me something, I did it to progress the story. Gear was a means to an end, it wasn't the end itself. RPG /= MMORPG.

[Fencers]

Stat crunch is the heart & soul of electronic RPGs. That was their great boon over PnP.

[DrakeWurrum]

GW1 is certainly more of a numbers game than GW2. There will be theory crafting of course as long as numbers are still there, but what GW2 does is shift gaming away from the numbers and to the abilities. Its more a matter of play style and ability usage now which is just fine with me.

I'm glad SOMEBODY in this thread is reasonable.

Too many people in this thread spreading the misconception that gear and stats won't have any impact in this game. I take it they were the Elementalists running around in WvW with only 12k HP, complaining about how OP it is that Rogues can one-shot them?

[shalnath]

I was very disappointed in the lack of skill synergy and condition interaction during the BWE. The combat seemed pretty dull to me.

Compared to the sheer variety of builds though, you were pigeonholed. I don't think it's a stretch to say that literally 98% of the available builds for any particular class were actually not viable at high level play.

This was one major problem I had with GW1 and what ultimately stopped me from playing the game. There was so much potential for many different builds, but none of them were viable due to nerfs or intentional restrictions placed on them.

[DrakeWurrum]

I was very disappointed in the lack of skill synergy and condition interaction during the BWE. The combat seemed pretty dull to me.

What BWE were you playing? There's a LOT of skill synergy, you just have to actually pay attention.

[shalnath]

What BWE were you playing? There's a LOT of skill synergy, you just have to actually pay attention.

As much as I love the attempt at personal insults, it doesn't make what you say true.

[Deleted]

What BWE were you playing? There's a LOT of skill synergy, you just have to actually pay attention.

That's not how you go about having a constructive discussion. Shalnath expressed how he/she felt and if you disagree you should offer some examples and situations instead of attacking his lack of attention.

[Glytch]

Guys

U borked my thread

[Deleted]

And fun is running the same instance more than once, without any reward in the end? Please, spare we the noble chivalry. You know, just as well as i do, that character improvement is the heart and soul of any rpg. 99 out of a 100 people will not go back to killing a boss, if the boss gives you nothing when it dies. If you say this is not true, you are a liar, or the on "saved soul" i have never come across.

ALL homepages regarding mmorpgs have sections dedicated to theorycrafting and gear composition. Dont be so naive to belive, that people want to play something just "for fun"

some may believe this, and others believe that gear creep basically breaks games. some examples:

1. I hate dungeons but I need gear.
-gw2- skip the dungeon, do something else for karma.
-wow- do the dungeon 50 times until you feel like committing suicide.

2. I love this dungeon, but its old content.
-gw2- dungeon stays relevant for a large part of the population.
-wow- do only new content, everything else is faceroll or no groups

3. I like to improve my character.
-gw2- high skill cap, getting gear with the right stats for your build.
-wow- gear creep means the carrot is always there, but you never get stronger, you just face harder mobs that requires gear progression.

4. I like to pvp.
-gw2- make a level 2 character and pvp as much as you like.
-wow- grind 90 levels then die repeatedly while you grind pvp gear. After about 200 hours you will finally be competitive. outdated faction system means that half that time will be sitting in queues.

5. I like challenging content.
-gw2- the largest part of the game stays relevant due to scaling. generally speaking challenge comes from high skill cap, not gear viability.
-wow- play only the most recent content, grind it over and over until next content comes out.


gw2 wont be perfect, and people will find things they like and dont like about the game, but removal of gear creep means that you have a far wider personal choice in how you play.

[DrakeWurrum]

As much as I love the attempt at personal insults, it doesn't make what you say true.

That wasn't a personal insult saying you weren't paying attention. I just said you have to actually pay attention to what an ability does in order to follow the synergy between skills. It's not as obvious as things like Maelstrom Weapon, or using combo points to use finishers, etc etc.

Don't ignore the CPCs, for example. If you use a Guardian's Leap of Faith onto an enemy that's surrounded by your Elementalist buddy's Ring of Fire, suddenly you're applying Might to all your allies (which includes you).
Applying Vulnerability before you hit with an ability results in doing more damage. Why wouldn't you take the time to do that, rather than just mindlessly spamming your skills?
Using a skill that grants you Might automatically before your real damage ability is another good idea that results in doing more damage. Guardian Greatsword chain attack auto-grants Might, sure, but would you rather use Whirling Wrath before or AFTER Might?
Sometimes a build may have a trait, as well, that causes you to deal more damage based on what conditions your enemies have.
Sometimes an ability will cause team-support in some fashion, whether it's AoE healing or giving them a boon (not just Might, but also Protection, Vigor, Swiftness) or even some kind of AoE projectile-blocking skill.
Some skills are all about the control you apply to the enemy, whether it's a well-timed Daze or launching them away from that Elementalist buddy I mentioned, low on HP and endurance both.

And sometimes it's just as important as applying Cripple ahead of time so you can actually get/stay in range to use your big finisher.

[Jibjub]

This is exactly my point. Thank you sir. Other people seem narrow minded on the subject. Longivity is exactly my concern.

When you play your caracter good. you know the tactics. You have defeated the boss - What will keep you comming back, if the only reward is a pretty dress????? And not something that actually helps you in the next battle, or the next time you face the same boss?

But it's all relative. Unless you like being so powerful you can dominate less powerful stuff (no one admits it but this is the rub) ... the there is no difference. The reward is the challenge. You get higher stats and then you face harder content. But what if ALL content was super hard and challenging? Getting "Rewarded" with gear doesn't matter.

Are public school systems the reason why this is so hard to understand?

I just wish people would admit that they like being more powerful than stuff ... the people who won't like GW2 are the people who buy Madden football and then trade all the best players to one team and win every game 51 to 0 and have a blast doing it.

[DrakeWurrum]

This is exactly my point. Thank you sir. Other people seem narrow minded on the subject. Longivity is exactly my concern.

When you play your caracter good. you know the tactics. You have defeated the boss - What will keep you comming back, if the only reward is a pretty dress????? And not something that actually helps you in the next battle, or the next time you face the same boss?

Gear. Don't believe what people say about gear supposedly not mattering. Gear does matter. The only thing is that gear doesn't get constantly more powerful. It does, however, have different stat allocations. You have the highest quality gear now? Good for you... now go collect a full set of matching gear suited specifically to your playstyle.
Maybe for one build I want full focus on Precision and Prowess. Maybe in another I'll want Power and Compassion. Maybe in another build I'll want Power and Vitality. I plan to have a lot of fun with collecting different sets - my bags are big enough for it, after all.

And what's more rewarding than killing a boss you enjoy killing? I kill a boss for the sheer accomplishment of a foe defeated. The rewards can be nice, but they're meaningless in the long run.

[Hellspawnxxx]

I think complexity Balanced itself out bettewen the 2 games. Guildwars 1 was heavely complexe but on the side of skills you equiped but armor and positioning werent as important. Where are in Guildwars 2 the Skill setup has been trimmed down and thinned out and has lost alot of its complexity, but where it lost complex build making it gained in armor setup / positioning combat.

Eather way I was awesome at Guildwars 1 and Ill remain being awesome in Guildwars 2...

[DrakeWurrum]

I firmly hold the belief that GW2's skill and trait set-up is going to be more complex than GW1's was. It seems simple on the surface, but the most complex systems are always simple in appearance and presentation.

[Deleted]

I firmly hold the belief that GW2's skill and trait set-up is going to be more complex than GW1's was. It seems simple on the surface, but the most complex systems are always simple in appearance and presentation.

This.

I've practically striped GW2 apart during the development of this app (every formula is now known =]) and I can say with all honesty that when it comes to MMOs, GW2 has the best build system when it comes to number of possible builds and gameplay customisation - sure, there are games with larger skill data base (GW1), but when it comes to number of viable builds, GW2 is on top atm.