Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
... LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    Like i already said in an other thread: they should add a casttime to demonic slash and let us cast it while moving like lightningbolt for shamans, maybe also with kick protection. Its the same thing like the instant cast and also removes the autohit "problem".
    HoG during meta would also be nice. I don´t really get it why they don´t want us to use HoG in meta anyway
    Because that doesn't solve the issue of 150% mobility with 110% damage. If you can't see where that's overpowered, both for PvE and PvP then...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Because that doesn't solve the issue of 150% mobility with 110% damage. If you can't see where that's overpowered, both for PvE and PvP then...
    I know that it is OP, that was just an example what blizz can do to remove the instant demoniv slash without any difference to the current playstyle. I don't mind if they add a cast time without casting while moving


    @dot refreshing during meta: right at the moment corruption gets refreshed by our melee hit while in meta, so if they dont want us to jump in and out for dot refreshing, they need to remove that too

  3. #43
    Epic! Tearor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Դժոխք
    Posts
    1,600
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    A complex spec does not necessarily have to have a complex rotation... right now it seems rather simple, granted, but consider live:



    If you notice that soul fire and incinerate are fillers (one is execute), then an equal amount of time in live as beta is spent doing filler. That doesn't mean that the spec is easy to play at all, since a huge amount of variables can affect how effective your "1" move is.
    You are correct, yet the number of moves went from "filler +9 other moves" down to "filler +4" (DSlash, Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, Incinerate = filler). That, while, as you correctly put, not necessarily being a 50% drop of complexity, is still a >50% decrease in the number of moves.
    No point mentioning these bats, I thought. The poor bastard will see them soon enough.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Tearor View Post
    You are correct, yet the number of moves went from "filler +9 other moves" down to "filler +4" (DSlash, Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, Incinerate = filler). That, while, as you correctly put, not necessarily being a 50% drop of complexity, is still a >50% decrease in the number of moves.
    And 2/5 of those "lost" moves were fire/forget anyway (immolate, felhunter).

    A third, immolation aura, was just used during meta, once per meta. If Carrion Swarm becomes a DPS gain, we get that move back.

    If Imp Swarm is a DPS gain, as it looks like, then that equates to bane of doom making it a fourth move.

    So I don't see where your >50% decrease figure came from.


    [add]


    For those still bleating about this being easier to play, also consider that Doomguard (a large % of Demonology damage) now executes sub 20%. Thus you have to use it when the boss health is low as possible, while still timing Doomguard with procs, and still making sure it will have 100% uptime, and still making sure it coincides with boss debuff (think Magmaw) phases.
    Last edited by Inactivity; 2012-05-08 at 01:42 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post

    Bane of Doom adds complexity due to the one-minute cooldown which has to be timed with procs to snapshot.

    Will our DoT's still snapshot stats like they do now? I was under the impression that they will update much more dynamically. Taking a great deal of the meta game out of our rotation. Thats something that will really dumb things down.

    I really like playing a (relatively) challenging class and I don't want that to go away. I don't want to go into a raid and there are 6 other locks. I want to be a unique snowflake.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yaxley View Post
    As nice as that may be, I would prefer that they catered to people who already play Warlocks than to those who would want to play Warlocks if they made them simpler.
    I 100% agree.

    When I started playing I loved my lock, and then the fact that not a lot of people played them, and especially in cata when it really was a test of skill to do good damage as a lock you had to use this ungodly 16 button rotation as demo, IT WAS GREAT!

    IE. Blizzard keep rotations complex so the top 6% of wow players (read as warlocks) have enough going on to keep their brilliant minds active!

  7. #47
    I'd rather not have a gimmicky, complex rotation for the sake of it.

  8. #48
    Adding more dots to a rotation is not complex or fun. Our ramp up time has been horrendous. I hate trying to kill an add on a boss only to see that it falls over dead before I'm 25% through my ramp up rotation. Yes, I do enjoy patchwerk fights where I can look at a mage or ele shaman and say "nanny nanny boo boo I got more buttons than you do." But those fights are very few and far in between. I loved being the class that did have complex rotations at one point, but now I'd rather be effective than patting myself on the back for pushing more buttons or watching more timers.

  9. #49
    Mechagnome Kildragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Twisting Nether
    Posts
    674
    Demo on Beta feels fine while in caster form. The much faster SB cast, reacting to MC procs and using HoG and Corruption manually make for something that's not all that boring. I personally love that we don't have to sit in melee range anymore for Immo Aura and Shadowflame. Demo on live is just boring as hell and a lot of the complexity comes from accurately predicting certain points of an encounter to line up with CD's. Any mistakes or changes in encounter/phase durations completely screw us, thanks to inflexible CD management and completely lackluster damage outside of major CD's. For Hagara, you might as well forget Demo at this point, simply because the phases don't last long enough for Meta to come off CD.

    The new Meta model feels amazing, while still needing some changes. Making Corruption castable in Meta wouldn't be a good fix because it would require annoying stance dancing every time Corruption is about to run out. While it does add complexity, it's a gimmicky complexity that would potentially screw us on certain encounters. HoG needs to be able to be cast in Meta though because it feels too empty without it. Demonic Slash needs a short cast time unless we want to risk being completely OP in PvP.

    I'm still not sure what to do about Corruption, but perhaps it can be changed to another ability similar to the SB -> DS conversion, simply so we don't have to stance dance.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-08 at 10:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by felcommander View Post
    I 100% agree.

    When I started playing I loved my lock, and then the fact that not a lot of people played them, and especially in cata when it really was a test of skill to do good damage as a lock you had to use this ungodly 16 button rotation as demo, IT WAS GREAT!

    IE. Blizzard keep rotations complex so the top 6% of wow players (read as warlocks) have enough going on to keep their brilliant minds active!
    I already play a Warlock and I love my Warlock. Demo isn't complex or engaging, it is boring and frustrating. Too long casts, not enough burst, so called "on-demand burst" that is actually on a 2-3 min CD, gimping us if we hold it, long ramp up time, horrendous damage outside of meta, etc.

    I feel like too many locks are stuck in the mindset of GIMMICKY COMPLEXITY MAKES THE CLASS HARD AND I WANNA FEEL SPECIAL YAY. Guess what, gimmicky complexity screws even the best Warlocks in many situations, simply because this so called complexity makes it very hard to react to many raid situations. Adds need to die fast? Immolate and Corruption spread suck and SB is so slow that it barely helps. Need AoE? Hellfire alone is mediocre AoE and we require Meta+Immo Aura+ Fel Guard to top the AoE meters. Movement? Better hope you're in melee range or your movement will screw you. Can't stand in melee range because of boss mechanics? Lose major DPS. Boss has to be moved? Lose the HoG buff for your pet until it comes off CD. Just used Meta but someone screwed up so you have to run? DPS down the drain. Have to hold Meta and other major CD's for certain phases (HRag)? Feel completely gimped compared to the rest of your raid until those phases.

    Now, how are those things fun? I know how to play all of our specs very competitively, but Demo is just not a well designed spec right now. Even Ele Shamans, the until recently red-headed step children of ranged DPS have far better ways of dealing with situations than Demo.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kildragon View Post
    stuff that makes sense
    Preach. Seriously. I could not have said it better myself. Keep demo easy to learn; hard to master, but don't make it as meta demanding as it is now.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  11. #51
    Well put, Kildragon.

    I think too many posters here have special snowflake syndrome. Playing a warlock as my main I'm happy to do well on fights, but I'm equally happy doing well healing on my resto druid, tanking on my death knight, or topping charts on my frost/unholy spec, hunter, or mage. It takes work to be good at any class, and while warlock requires some more pre-planning I think too many people equate that to being "special" or "good."

    Guess what? In a team-based environment (raid, battlegrounds, arena, even dungeons) nobody gives a flying fuck how special you think you are for how much effort you think you took, to master that class, no matter hard you think it is.

    In a team-based environment all that matters is what you bring to the raid, to the battleground, that others don't. It is your skill at playing your class along with your class abilities: for a pure DPS class (since that's what said snowflakes seem to want), it is how well you can react to any situation while putting out competitive damage. Not how complex putting out such damage is in your eyes.

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    As for fixing Meta, I think a big problem is Blizzard gave it a huge damage bonus, and then took out the ability to actually use anything other than Void Ray (which needs to be target enemies, and perhaps do a splash on them) or Demonic Slash. Corruption is already refreshed during Meta so that takes out the "stance dancing" point. At this point, I'd say just make Meta buff Demonic Slash and Void Ray (and other direct damage abilities), while leaving other abilities alone.

    For instance, Metamorphosis tooltip could read "Transforms into a Demon, blah blah, Increases non-periodic damage dealt by 88%"

  12. #52
    Dreadlord Uriel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    940
    I think a less compley rotation is a step in the right direction.
    In cata it felt like Stress and very unrelaxing to look at Cooldowns and timers all the time and to crush your hand to do average DPS. There is enough room to seperate the Good from the average Player with just a few Buttons to press.

    Remember some might like playing Lock for its complexity but others like me play a Lock because of the green fire, beeing a evil badass, torturing others with fire and corruptions and command brainless but powerful demons. Imo Cata rotation was much over the top when it comes to complexity.
    A Game can be challenging without juggling 30 Buttons. (Guildwars2 has only 10 + some on another stance)

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    Remember some might like playing Lock for its complexity but others like me play a Lock because of the green fire, beeing a evil badass, torturing others with fire and corruptions and command brainless but powerful demons. Imo Cata rotation was much over the top when it comes to complexity.
    A Game can be challenging without juggling 30 Buttons. (Guildwars2 has only 10 + some on another stance)
    I know that's why I started. At one point I wanted to switch to a hybrid since I hated queues but I figured I wouldn't want to main-switch since I didn't want to re-level all the way to 30-40 (damn, thinking back, I thought that took such a long time).

    When I started raiding I thought all classes were just as hard. When I realized how much effort my class took compared to, say, mages I didn't want to re-roll since I took so long to get all the way up to 85. By the time I was able to play a bunch of 85's, I didn't want to re-roll since I had so many achievement points on my warlock. Now, well, I actually am able to play my warlock somewhat, so meh.

    I was thinking of re-rolling to a hybrid (druid) anyway with account-wide achieves since I detest lack of flexibility (even as DPS in Dragon Soul, we were terribly inflexible) and 50 minute queues, but at least Blizzard did some things in the right direction, making Satchels and many queue-based rewards account-bound, so I can still play my main without a lot of the inflexibility.

  14. #54
    The Patient Kaizers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    241
    Quote Originally Posted by Caelheim View Post
    I'd rather not have a gimmicky, complex rotation for the sake of it.
    It feels cool for while but I'm just getting tired of a doing 200% of the work and losing out to a fire mage spamming fireball, pressing pyroblast when it lights up and casting combustion when an addon tells him to.

  15. #55
    Bloodsail Admiral kosuko's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kirchroah (Netherlands)
    Posts
    1,087
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    A complex spec does not necessarily have to have a complex rotation... right now it seems rather simple, granted, but consider live:



    If you notice that soul fire and incinerate are fillers (one is execute), then an equal amount of time in live as beta is spent doing filler. That doesn't mean that the spec is easy to play at all, since a huge amount of variables can affect how effective your "1" move is.
    Quoting this so people actually see it. OP used a very very bad picture and started making claims about it. Ofcourse the time spent on your filler spell (2.5 second cast time) will be A LOT longer than the time spend on a 18 second duration dot that takes 1 GCD (1.5 second) to cast.

    PS: How did you get 2.2 seconds spend on summon doomguard? A long fight with a huge amount of haste?
    Last edited by kosuko; 2012-05-08 at 08:47 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by kosuko View Post
    Quoting this so people actually see it. OP used a very very bad picture and started making claims about it. Ofcourse the time spent on your filler spell (2.5 second cast time) will be A LOT longer than the time spend on a 18 second duration dot that takes 1 GCD (1.5 second) to cast.

    PS: How did you get 2.2 seconds spend on summon doomguard? A long fight with a huge amount of haste?
    I think the doomguard was because the Simulationcraft ran longer than 6 minutes, so it's 2 global cooldowns.

    What really disgusts me about this post, and is sad because I find the OP's other posts useful, is that while he appears to be a somewhat-knowledgeable warlock, his picture is purely designed to mislead players while giving absolutely no actual information as to how complex our rotation really is.

    It's basically some stupid propaganda designed to confuse players into thinking that beta is a "1-button rotation" hoping to get them to ask Blizzard more buttons, which might not be what said players are actually looking for.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by kosuko View Post
    PS: How did you get 2.2 seconds spend on summon doomguard? A long fight with a huge amount of haste?
    That's an average number. The simulation varies the length of combat, so some iterations have 2 doomguards and others have 1.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-08 at 11:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    his picture is purely designed to mislead players while giving absolutely no actual information as to how complex our rotation really is.
    I'm really curious how you can construe a pie chart depicting time spent per ability as giving "absolutely no actual information" about rotational complexity. I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    I'm really curious how you can construe a pie chart depicting time spent per ability as giving "absolutely no actual information" about rotational complexity. I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.
    because it looks quite the same like to oh so complex cata-rotation:

    The new one:


    the "old" one:


    The only real difference i can see from that is the number of spells, and like there have already been mentioned several times: the number ob spells isn´t the most important thing to make a specc "difficult".

    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.
    Well, i do. A piechart that shows how often the spells had been used, instead of the time...
    Last edited by Valyna; 2012-05-08 at 09:33 PM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    That's an average number. The simulation varies the length of combat, so some iterations have 2 doomguards and others have 1.
    Au contraire, the iterations on simulationcraft.org range from 360-540 seconds. Thus "almost all" simulations have two doomguards. Since doomguard is best used with haste procs (such as Demon Soul: Felguard) the average GCD for casting it ends up being 1.1 sec. That's just simple data interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    I'm really curious how you can construe a pie chart depicting time spent per ability as giving "absolutely no actual information" about rotational complexity. I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.
    Because it says nothing about the order you execute things. Take a look at a balance druid, the amount of time spent casting wrath and starfire say absolutely nothing about the eclipse mechanic. Same goes with a warlock: if you are properly refreshing DoTs with hand of guldan, properly refreshing DoTs as they are about to (or after) they expire, and properly using molten core incinerates and decimation soul fires, most of your time will be spent on filler. A graph of an elemental shaman's time spent on Lightning Bolt says nothing about how well he is stacking for Fulmination. A graph of an arcane mage doing nothing but casting Arcane Blast says nothing about how well he is keeping his mana up.

    Something I like to put: Often, 1% of your rotation does more to affect your DPS than the 99% of filler. Most of our "hard to work with" abilities that "make us complex" come in the form of single globals with >10 sec CDs. But those are what makes the difference between high and low DPS.

  20. #60
    i dont like boring 87 buttons spec, i rather have a 4 button spec that its fun to play as.
    gw2 is awesome and it only has like 4 to 5 action buttons. so wtf are you guys saying?

    and from what i can tell blizz is gonna nerf demo to the ground, they always do.(nerf warlocks) i dont want to spend all my time trying to pull off an 8 button rotation just to watch some mage or druid do the same if not more dps by pressing less buttons. i want to have fun in my game.

    and if any of you elitist numbnuts think taht more buttons equals more complexity virtua fighter is the best and most complex fighting game out there and it only uses 3 buttons.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •