[MoP] Demo: Most complex spec -> least complex rotation?

[Gobuchul]

PS: How did you get 2.2 seconds spend on summon doomguard? A long fight with a huge amount of haste?

That's an average number. The simulation varies the length of combat, so some iterations have 2 doomguards and others have 1.

---------- Post added 2012-05-08 at 11:18 PM ----------

his picture is purely designed to mislead players while giving absolutely no actual information as to how complex our rotation really is.

I'm really curious how you can construe a pie chart depicting time spent per ability as giving "absolutely no actual information" about rotational complexity. I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.

[Valyna]

I'm really curious how you can construe a pie chart depicting time spent per ability as giving "absolutely no actual information" about rotational complexity. I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.

because it looks quite the same like to oh so complex cata-rotation:

The new one:


the "old" one:


The only real difference i can see from that is the number of spells, and like there have already been mentioned several times: the number ob spells isn´t the most important thing to make a specc "difficult".

I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.

Well, i do. A piechart that shows how often the spells had been used, instead of the time...

[Inactivity]

That's an average number. The simulation varies the length of combat, so some iterations have 2 doomguards and others have 1.

Au contraire, the iterations on simulationcraft.org range from 360-540 seconds. Thus "almost all" simulations have two doomguards. Since doomguard is best used with haste procs (such as Demon Soul: Felguard) the average GCD for casting it ends up being 1.1 sec. That's just simple data interpretation.

I'm really curious how you can construe a pie chart depicting time spent per ability as giving "absolutely no actual information" about rotational complexity. I personally can't think of a single more appropriate metric.

Because it says nothing about the order you execute things. Take a look at a balance druid, the amount of time spent casting wrath and starfire say absolutely nothing about the eclipse mechanic. Same goes with a warlock: if you are properly refreshing DoTs with hand of guldan, properly refreshing DoTs as they are about to (or after) they expire, and properly using molten core incinerates and decimation soul fires, most of your time will be spent on filler. A graph of an elemental shaman's time spent on Lightning Bolt says nothing about how well he is stacking for Fulmination. A graph of an arcane mage doing nothing but casting Arcane Blast says nothing about how well he is keeping his mana up.

Something I like to put: Often, 1% of your rotation does more to affect your DPS than the 99% of filler. Most of our "hard to work with" abilities that "make us complex" come in the form of single globals with >10 sec CDs. But those are what makes the difference between high and low DPS.

[Tietoso]

i dont like boring 87 buttons spec, i rather have a 4 button spec that its fun to play as.
gw2 is awesome and it only has like 4 to 5 action buttons. so wtf are you guys saying?

and from what i can tell blizz is gonna nerf demo to the ground, they always do.(nerf warlocks) i dont want to spend all my time trying to pull off an 8 button rotation just to watch some mage or druid do the same if not more dps by pressing less buttons. i want to have fun in my game.

and if any of you elitist numbnuts think taht more buttons equals more complexity virtua fighter is the best and most complex fighting game out there and it only uses 3 buttons.

[Josh Yaxley]

Meh. I played Demo on beta, got pissed, saw the Simcraft, got more pissed, posted it so people could be pissed with me and got loads of QQ.

I'm not an idiot, I know that the graph doesn't really say much, but I really felt like Demo on beta was just dull, and that's the point I was trying to make with the graph.

My main issue was how boring Demo was in Meta too. Either way, they added 2 new spells since I made this, so I was kind of right (in an annoying way, I'm sure).


EDIT: Also, the second graph that has been posted has almost an extra quarter taken up by things that don't exist on the first one. Deduce what you like.

[Jessicka]

Well, Doom in effect replaces any Corruption casts in caster form, you'll be dancing into Meta to maintain it by the looks of it, since it lasts a minute, so caster form will just be HoG, Shadow Bolt and the occasional Soul Fire; but then we lose DF generation from Corruption. I dunno about Chaos Wave, it seems mighty expensive to cast...

[Seezer]

Do you really think the hard part of playing demo on live is the amount of skills we use? oh god...



I don´t. So maybe the 100% isn´t true at all

Yes you do. You just want to be different.

---------- Post added 2012-05-09 at 12:57 AM ----------

i dont like boring 87 buttons spec, i rather have a 4 button spec that its fun to play as.
gw2 is awesome and it only has like 4 to 5 action buttons. so wtf are you guys saying?

and from what i can tell blizz is gonna nerf demo to the ground, they always do.(nerf warlocks) i dont want to spend all my time trying to pull off an 8 button rotation just to watch some mage or druid do the same if not more dps by pressing less buttons. i want to have fun in my game.

and if any of you elitist numbnuts think taht more buttons equals more complexity virtua fighter is the best and most complex fighting game out there and it only uses 3 buttons.

Calm down with the passive/aggressive "elitist" remarks. This is a class forum. On our class. And Virtua fighter is a console game. So of course it's going to have 3 buttons. Keyboards have more. What's your point? And most abilities are more than one action in a fighter. Not wanting a faceroll rotation isn't "elitist". Because it isn't difficult. Unless you're pvp'ing, your just standing around spamming abilities. I don't want to stand around and only have to worry about 3 buttons as well. And what makes VF complex? Oh. That's right. Combos and special moves. You're doing the same thing. Your movement stick would be like a keybind in wow. Because you need it for certain abilities. Controllers are much more space limited. That's why you have 3 buttons. As well as other things used to get abilities off.


Seems like you're acting pretty elitist yourself. Funny.

[Gobuchul]

Au contraire, the iterations on simulationcraft.org range from 360-540 seconds. Thus "almost all" simulations have two doomguards. Since doomguard is best used with haste procs (such as Demon Soul: Felguard) the average GCD for casting it ends up being 1.1 sec. That's just simple data interpretation.

Um... do you know what "au contraire" means? The doomguard isn't cast until 10 seconds in, so some iterations definitely have 2 doomguards, others definitely have 1. Sure, there's a bunch of haste effects so the GCD ends up being pretty low, but not quite as low as 1.1 seconds, because the time spent chart is reporting averages.

Forums kinda suck when you have to wade through people who post drivel for the sole purpose of disagreeing with others.

[Count Zero]

Argh, I got excited when I saw Simcraft was listed as running beta patch 15668 which is the new one that just came out, but it's clearly not running on info from this new patch.

[Inactivity]

Forums kinda suck when you have to wade through people who post drivel for the sole purpose of disagreeing with others.

They do when you actually believe that a pie chart actually means anything. So much hostility.

[Gobuchul]

Argh, I got excited when I saw Simcraft was listed as running beta patch 15668 which is the new one that just came out, but it's clearly not running on info from this new patch.

It is running with updated spell data, so things like the destruction mastery buffs are in. Entirely new abilities like the demo changes are not.

[Gohzerlock]

I like the idea of having a little more space for utility keybinds

[Nivrax]

Au contraire, the iterations on simulationcraft.org range from 360-540 seconds. Thus "almost all" simulations have two doomguards. Since doomguard is best used with haste procs (such as Demon Soul: Felguard) the average GCD for casting it ends up being 1.1 sec.

Huh, I was under impression only haste rating procs worked on doomguard, and percentage, like DS and Hero, didn't.

Because it says nothing about the order you execute things. Take a look at a balance druid, the amount of time spent casting wrath and starfire say absolutely nothing about the eclipse mechanic.

Chart doesn't show how hard spec is to pull off for maximum efficiency, but it does show, kinda, gameplay. As in, you will spend 80% of time looking at cast bar casting fillers. I may not have raided in hm on either boomkin or ele shaman, but I did tried both playstyles, and the amount of uninterrupted filler cast just feel... dull. I just can't stand boomkin rotation (even multidotting, having better mobility with both dots instant, feels worse to me than juggling one instant and one casted), no matter how actual complex is getting right Eclipses during different phase fights. Even compared to magi, who spent most time casting fireballs, the short duration dot and often (in high-ilvl gear) pyrostreak procs makes it feel more live.

Hopefully they will balance spec out to have all pull similar numbers, I can't see myself being forced to playing current Beta Demo spec on every fight. Although, they just made few changes to spec/rotation in newest build, just didn't have time to test them yet.

[Spotnick]

Warlocks were even easier than that in BC with only one button.. shadow bolt.

[Inactivity]

Huh, I was under impression only haste rating procs worked on doomguard, and percentage, like DS and Hero, didn't.

They do affect the global used to cast Summon Doomguard which is what I was implying - with a DS and lust up your GCD for your first doomguard will easily be 1 sec.

Hopefully they will balance spec out to have all pull similar numbers, I can't see myself being forced to playing current Beta Demo spec on every fight. Although, they just made few changes to spec/rotation in newest build, just didn't have time to test them yet.

I can't stand the way it is on live atm, for certain encounters (granted, macros can make things a bit easier on Ultraxion-style fights). Really, I'm not too concerned with how complicated things are, but as Kildragon nicely put it, often the more complicated a spec, the worse it actually ends up performing even with best play. Meaning I find those bleating for "MAKEUSSHITTIER' (more than we already are) quite... annoying.

I'll test Beta again, but I already suggested a few changes:

1) Get rid of this Doom/Corruption juggling crap.
2) Allow all abilities to be cast in Metamorphosis, but make Metamorphosis only increase non-periodic damage.
3) Give Demonic Slash, in Metamorphosis, a short cast time, around 25% faster than Shadow Bolt. Haste may push this below GCD, but it looks like Blizzard wants us stacking mastery, not haste, for Demonology so gear scaling for Haste won't be that big a concern as it is on Live.

[Nivrax]

I can't stand the way it is on live atm, for certain encounters (granted, macros can make things a bit easier on Ultraxion-style fights). Really, I'm not too concerned with how complicated things are, but as Kildragon nicely put it, often the more complicated a spec, the worse it actually ends up performing even with best play.

I do agree, but there have to be some middle point. As others said, you could top meters by spamming SB in BC, which was good from progression standpoint, but terrible from personal experience. There is limit how many fire they can add in fight and how long can you learn fights. Warmaster is huge buck-fest with fires, charges, drakes, sappers and 4 dottable adds, yet after learning fight, mutidotting everything while stunning sappers while not standing in fire while soaking when you can.. just feels natural now (Destruction/Affli pov). In fact, this, and perhaps Madness hc, which I didn't have much time to wipe on, right now feel as only engaging fights in DS, rest is just completely meh. But I digress...

[Valyna]

Yes you do. You just want to be different.[COLOR="red"]

.

Sad. You tried to be funny, but in the end it was just damn lame.
I don't want to be different or anything like that, I just want to enjoy playing my specs.
There are several other guys even in this topic which said that the live demo gameplay is more frustrating then complex.

[Jessicka]

Sad. You tried to be funny, but in the end it was just damn lame.
I don't want to be different or anything like that, I just want to enjoy playing my specs.
There are several other guys even in this topic which said that the live demo gameplay is more frustrating then complex.

This. Demo's complexity on live has nothing to do with it's basic rotation or number of spells, it's purely down to mechanics under the hood and their interaction with the RNG of Impending Doom which in turn cause frustration: It's 2 or 3 big problems bleeding into things that wouldn't have an issue otherwise. At least two of things have been substantially fixed by the new Fury system and mechanics of Mastery; it is however typical of Blizzard to try to "fix" every perceived problem at once, without seeing how a fix at a time impacts on other issues.

[nipil]

complex != complicated
complex ~ multiple things simple things to do or manage : untangle a bunch of wires
complicated ~ something hard to understand : factoring large prime numbers

contrary to my original belief, i think that the devs might be on the right track regarding the way they simplify our gameplay
- many buttons looks daunting on first sight and tends to be fearful and quickly voiding the motivation or pleasure
- few buttons looks less daunting, and people will try and play with them, hopefully progressing in the longer run

doing so (ie supressing the "complex" aspect) can be a guarantee that the "complicated" aspect might stay. why ? because if you'haven't many things to do, you feel confident, and you can fiddle, test, thing and understand further and further "why" and "how". so i finally started beliving (as i already posted in another thread) that few abilities with many interactions is far better than many abilities with few (or none) synergies.

[Demez]

100% of Warlocks?

Much less than that.