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  1. #1
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    Unhappy [MoP] Demo: Most complex spec -> least complex rotation?

    Just pulled this from the latest SimCraft model of Demo in MoP:



    Note: Shadow Bolt and Demonic Slash are the same move


    Looks fun, right?

  2. #2
    Arcane mage 2.0

  3. #3
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    I really hope they add some complexity to it.

    A lot of people who play Warlock probably do so because they enjoy having lots of abilities :S they should at least keep the same style of play when they revamp a class, otherwise people who enjoy the class might not enjoy it anymore

  4. #4
    What version of simcraft are you using and how did you obtain it? or did you modify your own? I would love to see Destruction and Affliction's numbers.

    Edit: Also, two button rotation. That seems... lovely.
    Soulburn: Unstable Affliction. A boy can dream.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yaxley View Post
    I really hope they add some complexity to it.

    A lot of people who play Warlock probably do so because they enjoy having lots of abilities :S they should at least keep the same style of play when they revamp a class, otherwise people who enjoy the class might not enjoy it anymore
    Who enjoys it, 6% of wow population? we're the least played class atm.

  6. #6
    A complex spec does not necessarily have to have a complex rotation... right now it seems rather simple, granted, but consider live:



    If you notice that soul fire and incinerate are fillers (one is execute), then an equal amount of time in live as beta is spent doing filler. That doesn't mean that the spec is easy to play at all, since a huge amount of variables can affect how effective your "1" move is.

  7. #7
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    Who enjoys it, 6% of wow population? we're the least played class atm.
    100% of Warlocks?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yaxley View Post
    100% of Warlocks?
    I'll make a point, I think that a big misconception I see is that "complexity" somehow equates to "lots of buttons" - the two are mutually exclusive. Complexity is a good thing - you can have complexity in a two-button rotation (even arcane mages have a limited degree of it - managing mana with arcane blast). There is a big difference between good frost death knights (who can use runic power, runes, and KM procs effectively) and bad death knights who just go through the motions.

    Buttons are not - the more buttons, the more reliant a person is on having a gaming mouse and keyboard. Right now, buttons take up over half of my entire keyboard space and I'm feeling like I need gaming hardware to be competitive, something I don't think should be required at all.

    Hopefully MOP decides to reduce the amount of buttons used by every spec and class (especially in PvP, where not only are abilities used, but macros as well) and retain the complexity of a well-thought rotation.

  9. #9
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    I welcome this change, previously I couldn't play my Warlock because it was just an alt, and I didn't feel like I wanted to spend ages trying to perfect the rotation on an alt that I maybe play in LFR once a while.

  10. #10
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    I welcome this change, previously I couldn't play my Warlock because it was just an alt, and I didn't feel like I wanted to spend ages trying to perfect the rotation on an alt that I maybe play in LFR once a while.
    As nice as that may be, I would prefer that they catered to people who already play Warlocks than to those who would want to play Warlocks if they made them simpler.

  11. #11
    The graph Inactivity posted is from Incinerate filler demo, which is used only on Ultraxion for minimum gain, expected Demo live rotation splits Inc with Shadowbolt. Normal Demo rotation takes cares of proc (Molten Core), 2 cooldown nukes (Shadowflame + HoG), 1,5 of a dot (Corr and 1 min Doom) and 3 fillers.

    Beta seems like consist 85% of 2 fillers, with one cooldown nuke (HoG) that you can actually hold over. I don't mind trimming a bit Demo, since it was bloated, but this at the moment is castration.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraclef View Post
    Josh, please give up now, it's useless, hopeless. This is the end.
    I'm just hoping that they haven't finished implementing their design for Demo ;D

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    The graph Inactivity posted is from Incinerate filler demo, which is used only on Ultraxion for minimum gain, expected Demo live rotation splits Inc with Shadowbolt. Normal Demo rotation takes cares of proc (Molten Core), 2 cooldown nukes (Shadowflame + HoG), 1,5 of a dot (Corr and 1 min Doom) and 3 fillers.

    Beta seems like consist 85% of 2 fillers, with one cooldown nuke (HoG) that you can actually hold over. I don't mind trimming a bit Demo, since it was bloated, but this at the moment is castration.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that there is one more button to press for multi-target (which is what I play in live for all fights) - and that adds minimal complexity with molten core proc switching. 2 fillers (3 if you count 2 on one button, which are different due to cast times - and soul fire appears to still be an execute filler) still account for roughly the same percentage of DPS. Not to mention who knows if we find that other rotations/buttons (I'm looking at you, Carrion Swarm/Immolation Aura) become more efficient with more targets. Yes, my graph is for single-target rotation/spec. But so is Josh Yaxley's.

    Bane of Doom adds complexity due to the one-minute cooldown which has to be timed with procs to snapshot. The same will probably happen with Wild Imps which appears to be a DPS gain - but you don't see it in his graph, because his graph completely ignores minions. Same goes with Grimoire of Service, which does not exactly line up with a 1:20 Dark Soul giving yet additional complexity - but again, since his graph ignores minions that is totally unnoticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paraclef View Post
    Roses are red
    Violets are blue
    Two buttons are inactivity
    I'm not saying Demo is "too hard" in beta or even that it is "good" - the class feels like it is a one-button nuke. But that's not to say the one-button nuke is the "part that matters" - usually, timing the other stuff is - nor does it say that the class will be easy to optimize at all. You can take words out of my mouth and say that I just want a "two-button spec" (which don't exist in live) - but I still see the complexity in the rotation which evidently some are too ignorant to notice.


    [add]

    The buttons increase by 1 for the multi-target rotation, but the complexity increases by much more (since you now have to time shadow trance procs and molten core procs mostly). This means buttons isn't always linearly scaled with complexity.
    Last edited by Inactivity; 2012-05-07 at 12:47 PM.

  14. #14
    Since when demonology is the most complex spec?

  15. #15
    Do you really think the hard part of playing demo on live is the amount of skills we use? oh god...

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yaxley View Post
    100% of Warlocks?
    I don´t. So maybe the 100% isn´t true at all
    Last edited by Valyna; 2012-05-07 at 01:03 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    Do you really think the hard part of playing demo on live is the amount of skills we use? oh god...
    I love how I am accused of "raping" the word "complexity" by some ignorant ones who think that it equates to "complexity" in hardware requirement.

    Number of skills adds mechanical difficulty - being forced to allocate more keybinds and possibly purchasing new hardware. In my opinion, this is bad design.

    One of the hardest specs, in my opinion, to actually do well in is actually a fire mage. You have a 2-4 second window to decide whether to use Combustion, and this has to line up with as many procs and as favorable of a phase as possible (due to double-dipping). While the buttons necessarily aren't numerous, you really need a split-second reaction time, which might not in-and-of-itself be good design. Yes, you can do well with poorly timed combusts. But you won't be top of your class. Arcane on the other hand, is actually extremely difficult even up to being nearly impossible to play 100% perfectly, but the cost of making small mistakes is very small, so you can get very close very easily, thus despite being hard to be literally 100%, it's not a terribly hard spec to play.

    Warlocks on the other hand have simpler but much more numerous ways of losing DPS making it a more unforgiving spec. It's not terribly hard to do everything right, but there are a million ways you can do things wrong for patchwerk (clipping one of many DoTs, not snapshotting one of many long-CD abilities, not lining up several big cooldowns that make a large % of DPS, not using multiple short-CD abilities on cooldown, and not using the correct filler out of 3 of them).

    At the end of the day warlocks are poorly designed as a class, not because of Ultraxion DPS (which is actually quite good, and easy to do well), but because we don't react well to Burst Phases (look at Spine and Hagara). While Spine is the poster-child example of warlocks being badly designed, people don't notice how poor we are of a class on Hagara, simply due to the fact that the fight was never tuned to be terribly difficult in the first place.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    Do you really think the hard part of playing demo on live is the amount of skills we use? oh god...
    Having to pay attention to more abilities (Hand of Gul'dan, Shadowflame, DoTs, Incinerate procs, all our cooldowns (Soul Burn, Demon Soul, Meta, Doomguard)) in addition to the trinket procs etc that every other class has to pay attention to, is undoubtedly going to make the spec harder to play, as it requires more focus. In addition to Pet-Twisting and Gear-swapping (both of which won't be used in MoP) this gives us more to think about than every other spec (every other dps spec I've played anyway).

    People can argue all they want that it isn't the amount of abilities needed to be used that makes the spec complex, but the actual timing of abilities etc, but it is clearly both that affect it. A class that has to pay attention to procs etc is easier than a class to has to pay attention to procs in addition to using a load of extra abilities.

    I don´t. So maybe the 100% isn´t true at all
    It might've been safer to say 90% then, but my point was that Warlock's have lots of abilities, therefore you would assume that people who play Warlocks enjoy playing a class with lots of abilities.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    I'll make a point, I think that a big misconception I see is that "complexity" somehow equates to "lots of buttons" - the two are mutually exclusive.
    I don't think you know what mutually exclusive means or made a typo there. There is obviously a positive correlation between the number of buttons required and the complexity of the thing being asked to do. More buttons allow for a more complex rotation but they don't guarantee it but in almost all real game situations less buttons does imply less complexity. Complex doesn't necessarily mean good, interesting nor fun which should be the goals. An ideal rotation has a fairly simple core that is 5-10% away in DPS from a DPS maximizing rotation that is far more complex and interesting.

    Also, I'm really sick of Paraclef's "contribution" to these forums. I wonder if there is a way to make it so posts by someone just don't show up in threads for you.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yaxley View Post
    It might've been safer to say 90% then, but my point was that Warlock's have lots of abilities, therefore you would assume that people who play Warlocks enjoy playing a class with lots of abilities.
    You'd think with so many abilities that at least one of them would be good for a concept as fucking simple as beating on a tendon >.<

    Good riddance, more useful abilities > more abilities.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-07 at 02:20 PM ----------

    For the complaining/whining I did an analysis of how "easy" this is in Beta. Here goes:

    Patchwerk:

    1 proc-based major cooldown: Metamorphosis + Impending Doom
    1 major cooldown: Demon Soul
    2 short cooldowns: Hand of Gul'dan, Shadowflame
    2 snapshot abilities: Bane of Doom, Immolation Aura (metamorphosis)
    2 DoTs with 1 auto-refreshed: Corruption, Immolate
    2 fillers: Shadow Bolt, Incinerate (on proc)
    1 execute: Soul Fire

    Contrast to Beta:

    1 resource-based major cooldown (harder): Metamorphosis + Demonic Fury
    2 major cooldowns (up from 1): Dark Soul + Grimoire of Service
    1 short cooldown (down from 2, but requires stance-swapping): Hand of Gul'dan
    1 snapshot ability: Imp Swarm
    1 DoT without auto-refresh: Corruption
    2 fillers: Demonic Slash/Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire (on proc)
    1 execute: Soul Fire (same ability, so 1 less button)

    That, friends, is actually only three less buttons and arguably is harder than live (you have two major cooldowns and metamorphosis is more intense to keep track of than live). The only real loss is Immolation Aura (which was mostly fire/forget) - now seems to be AoE-only but might be a DPS gain with multiple targets. If Carrion Swarm is a DPS increase, that is added too which makes for only one less button. The actual rotation is almost the same complexity, note that we have 1 less filler, Soul Fire merely takes the place of Incinerate. Having two major cooldowns adds more to track than one.

    AoE abilities:

    Live: Felstorm (pet), Immolation Aura (fire/forget, meta only), Hellfire
    Beta: Felstorm (pet), Immolation Aura (fire/forget, meta only), Rain of Fire (not in meta)

    Same abilities, 1 less button and requires something to do for AoE other than channel Hellfire in Beta. So you actually use more abilities since you are required to DoT instead of Hellfire-win.

    Pet management:

    Live: Felstorm for AoE and one at the beginning. Pet Twist once for single-target then forget about it.
    Beta: All pets are viable which may require more encounter-specific twisting. Felstorm for damage (on cooldown, timed with AoE), Interrupts/purges from Felhunter, Dispels from Imp, and Disarm from Voidwalker are all usable. Using "petless" (GoSac) for certain non-pet encounters will require maximizing the 15 second bonus by means of another pet twist (re-summon then sac).

    Utility Abilities:

    Mobility Abilities on Live: Demonic Circle: Summon/Teleport, Demon Leap (only in Meta)
    Mobility Abilities on Beta: Demonic Circle: Summon/Teleport, Demonic Leap (requires stance swap), Burning Rush (requires health management), Demonic Gateway (raid usable, so requires more coordination).

    Defensive Abilities on Live: Shadow Ward, Soul Link (fire and forget), Demon Armor (almost never used)
    Defensive Abilities on Beta: Twilight Ward, Unending Resolve, and Soul Link (requires active management), Sacrificial Pact, or Dark Bargain

    Buffs on Live: Fel Armor (fire/forget), Dark Intent (fire/forget, but requires raid e-peen crossing)
    Buffs on Beta: Dark Intent (fire/forget)

    Raid Cooldowns on Live: Nothing
    Raid Cooldowns on Beta: Demonic Gateway (usable as both personal and raid, so requires more coordination)

    Yeah... for the most part other than some fire/forget abilities (which just raise downtime after resurrection but does not actually add difficulty) we actually have more buttons to press than on Live. Don't see what y'all are complaining about.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-07 at 02:58 PM ----------

    I stand corrected, we actually have more buttons in Beta than I figured at first due to the level 90 talents and the glyph. So in addition to the above, we have:

    1) Yet another (actually two) defensive ability: Dark Apotheosis (and Dark Regeneration, if we get it).
    2) Another defensive ability that is beefed up: Mortal Coil (versus Death Coil) is well worth it compared to its previous incarnation.
    3) Harvest Life may be yet another AoE ability that becomes worth taking with more enemies (need to wait and see).
    4) 1 mobility cooldown: Kiljaeden's Cunning (1 min) along with a passive, or:
    5) 1 encounter-based DPS cooldown: Archimonde's Vengeance. For instance, on Ultraxion (math needed) while the damage is light, it would be best used for the Hour of Twilight ability. As the passive damage ramps up, there may come a point where using just the passive is actually better.
    Last edited by Inactivity; 2012-05-07 at 03:00 PM.

  20. #20
    Oh, I'm not trying to argue that beta is/ isn't more complex than live, just the general principle of what makes a complex rotation and what makes a good/interesting rotation. I actually like demo quite a bit on beta right now, I've both tanked and DPSed all the current dungeons and it feels good. I think they need to do something to make fury more than just "rage that we spend in meta", I think the horns and purple fists we get at 500 fury are supposed to also grant a buff and that might make it close enough to an interesting mechanic.
    Gamer, Nerd, Physicist. What more could you want?! Well fine, I have a youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/shaidyadvice and a stream: www.twitch.tv/shaidyadvice I'm currently spending my free time with the fine fellows and ladies over at Death and Taxes.

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