[MoP] Demo: Most complex spec -> least complex rotation?

[CDShaidar]

I'll make a point, I think that a big misconception I see is that "complexity" somehow equates to "lots of buttons" - the two are mutually exclusive.

I don't think you know what mutually exclusive means or made a typo there. There is obviously a positive correlation between the number of buttons required and the complexity of the thing being asked to do. More buttons allow for a more complex rotation but they don't guarantee it but in almost all real game situations less buttons does imply less complexity. Complex doesn't necessarily mean good, interesting nor fun which should be the goals. An ideal rotation has a fairly simple core that is 5-10% away in DPS from a DPS maximizing rotation that is far more complex and interesting.

Also, I'm really sick of Paraclef's "contribution" to these forums. I wonder if there is a way to make it so posts by someone just don't show up in threads for you.

[Inactivity]

It might've been safer to say 90% then, but my point was that Warlock's have lots of abilities, therefore you would assume that people who play Warlocks enjoy playing a class with lots of abilities.

You'd think with so many abilities that at least one of them would be good for a concept as fucking simple as beating on a tendon >.<

Good riddance, more useful abilities > more abilities.

---------- Post added 2012-05-07 at 02:20 PM ----------

For the complaining/whining I did an analysis of how "easy" this is in Beta. Here goes:

Patchwerk:

1 proc-based major cooldown: Metamorphosis + Impending Doom
1 major cooldown: Demon Soul
2 short cooldowns: Hand of Gul'dan, Shadowflame
2 snapshot abilities: Bane of Doom, Immolation Aura (metamorphosis)
2 DoTs with 1 auto-refreshed: Corruption, Immolate
2 fillers: Shadow Bolt, Incinerate (on proc)
1 execute: Soul Fire

Contrast to Beta:

1 resource-based major cooldown (harder): Metamorphosis + Demonic Fury
2 major cooldowns (up from 1): Dark Soul + Grimoire of Service
1 short cooldown (down from 2, but requires stance-swapping): Hand of Gul'dan
1 snapshot ability: Imp Swarm
1 DoT without auto-refresh: Corruption
2 fillers: Demonic Slash/Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire (on proc)
1 execute: Soul Fire (same ability, so 1 less button)

That, friends, is actually only three less buttons and arguably is harder than live (you have two major cooldowns and metamorphosis is more intense to keep track of than live). The only real loss is Immolation Aura (which was mostly fire/forget) - now seems to be AoE-only but might be a DPS gain with multiple targets. If Carrion Swarm is a DPS increase, that is added too which makes for only one less button. The actual rotation is almost the same complexity, note that we have 1 less filler, Soul Fire merely takes the place of Incinerate. Having two major cooldowns adds more to track than one.

AoE abilities:

Live: Felstorm (pet), Immolation Aura (fire/forget, meta only), Hellfire
Beta: Felstorm (pet), Immolation Aura (fire/forget, meta only), Rain of Fire (not in meta)

Same abilities, 1 less button and requires something to do for AoE other than channel Hellfire in Beta. So you actually use more abilities since you are required to DoT instead of Hellfire-win.

Pet management:

Live: Felstorm for AoE and one at the beginning. Pet Twist once for single-target then forget about it.
Beta: All pets are viable which may require more encounter-specific twisting. Felstorm for damage (on cooldown, timed with AoE), Interrupts/purges from Felhunter, Dispels from Imp, and Disarm from Voidwalker are all usable. Using "petless" (GoSac) for certain non-pet encounters will require maximizing the 15 second bonus by means of another pet twist (re-summon then sac).

Utility Abilities:

Mobility Abilities on Live: Demonic Circle: Summon/Teleport, Demon Leap (only in Meta)
Mobility Abilities on Beta: Demonic Circle: Summon/Teleport, Demonic Leap (requires stance swap), Burning Rush (requires health management), Demonic Gateway (raid usable, so requires more coordination).

Defensive Abilities on Live: Shadow Ward, Soul Link (fire and forget), Demon Armor (almost never used)
Defensive Abilities on Beta: Twilight Ward, Unending Resolve, and Soul Link (requires active management), Sacrificial Pact, or Dark Bargain

Buffs on Live: Fel Armor (fire/forget), Dark Intent (fire/forget, but requires raid e-peen crossing)
Buffs on Beta: Dark Intent (fire/forget)

Raid Cooldowns on Live: Nothing
Raid Cooldowns on Beta: Demonic Gateway (usable as both personal and raid, so requires more coordination)

Yeah... for the most part other than some fire/forget abilities (which just raise downtime after resurrection but does not actually add difficulty) we actually have more buttons to press than on Live. Don't see what y'all are complaining about.

---------- Post added 2012-05-07 at 02:58 PM ----------

I stand corrected, we actually have more buttons in Beta than I figured at first due to the level 90 talents and the glyph. So in addition to the above, we have:

1) Yet another (actually two) defensive ability: Dark Apotheosis (and Dark Regeneration, if we get it).
2) Another defensive ability that is beefed up: Mortal Coil (versus Death Coil) is well worth it compared to its previous incarnation.
3) Harvest Life may be yet another AoE ability that becomes worth taking with more enemies (need to wait and see).
4) 1 mobility cooldown: Kiljaeden's Cunning (1 min) along with a passive, or:
5) 1 encounter-based DPS cooldown: Archimonde's Vengeance. For instance, on Ultraxion (math needed) while the damage is light, it would be best used for the Hour of Twilight ability. As the passive damage ramps up, there may come a point where using just the passive is actually better.

[CDShaidar]

Oh, I'm not trying to argue that beta is/ isn't more complex than live, just the general principle of what makes a complex rotation and what makes a good/interesting rotation. I actually like demo quite a bit on beta right now, I've both tanked and DPSed all the current dungeons and it feels good. I think they need to do something to make fury more than just "rage that we spend in meta", I think the horns and purple fists we get at 500 fury are supposed to also grant a buff and that might make it close enough to an interesting mechanic.

[Josh Yaxley]

You'd think with so many abilities that at least one of them would be good for a concept as fucking simple as beating on a tendon >.<

Demo is easily fine for Spine HC.



I don't see how you can count defensive/movement abilities as beneficial towards a fun dps rotation. Also, I think you're underestimating how much a loss of just a few moves can make. For instance, the removal of Shadowflame means that instead of using a different spell every 12 seconds, we can continue spamming Shadow Bolt, yay.

Also, in Metamorphosis our rotation is reduced to like, 1 or 2 moves or something stupid.

[Inactivity]

Hmm. You were beating on about number of abilities. That's gone up, not down, as I pointed out.

You obviously missed that I separated utility abilities (which still may be required to be used every minute or less, and still take up keyboard space) and standard dps rotation abilities. Keep in mind many utility abilities, on many fights, will be required for top DPS. For instance, burning rush on Yor'sahj/Zon'ozz if you do adds. Obviously Ultraxion requires fewer buttons and a simpler rotation, but on live Ultraxion requires fewer buttons and a simpler rotation as well.

You've gone from "gutted wholly into 2-button spec" to "OMGWELOSE1BUTTON! ENDOFTHEWORLD!" which in my opinion is a rather pathetic stance to take at this point and shows how big of an exaggeration the complaints were at the beginning.

Your graph has the same % of DPS taken from two abilities as on live and now this short-sighted "we're arcane mages!" group has to come up with lame excuses as to why things are "bad." Who knows? Perhaps for the celebrated multi-target rotation (which you've backed up to, since single-target is just as easy in live) Carrion Swarm will be required, as will Immolation Aura.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Now to where I actually agree with you guys:
(i.e. where I think things could be improved)

Metamorphosis Rotation has corruption on auto-refresh. So we use Demonic Slash and Soul Fire. We are unable to use HoG, so we don't.

What really makes me feel the spec is too "simple" is not the amount of abilities, it's the lack of cast times in Metamorphosis. Adding a short cast time to Demonic Slash and allowing HoG to be used in Metamorphosis form will make us feel a lot less like a "1-1-1-1-1-1-1" caster.

- Ideally with full-geared haste, I'd aim for Demonic Slash to be around a 1.2 sec cast, with Soul Fire around 1.1 sec. Shadow Bolt would be around 1.6 sec.

--------------------------------------------------------------

P.P.S (i.e. on another positive note)

While actually adding some more abilities and changing some, I think that in MOP our abilities will be much more useful. Like I said a big weakness was that our abilities were bad for burst no matter how many we had - no matter how much people bleat about "demo was fine," it really wasn't especially from a Pure DPS standpoint.

What's more important than having abilities for the sake of having abilities is having useful abilities that do things - and this is where I think Blizzard did much better than in Cataclysm. We have one spec that promises stronger on-demand burst, while maintaining our ability to do sustained and medium-burst damage.

[Evillocksp]

Whoever said warlocks dont react well to burst situations ten u r wrong
Demo has great situational burst and destro has sick consistent burst
Also id wish they kept destro the same as it is on live im o e of te few destro locks on my server in raidingguilds and i love it
i get on the beta and its still fun but just feels gutted
And im sorry but fire mages dont take that much skill esp with a debuff tracker watch to make sure u have a strong pyro crit, living bomb dot, and bam u hit combustion only thing in the spec u have to put a lil effort in try playing destro competitively and tell me wuts differe

[Josh Yaxley]

Meh my main point throughout the whole thing is that I've played Demo live, I've played it on Beta: Beta Demo seems so dull. Sad panda.

[Inactivity]

1) I agree with you there Josh, but I don't think that adding abilities is the solution. Rather, as I mentioned, make the abilities work better - give Demonic Slash a relatively short cast-time, and increase what you can do in Metamorphosis. Soul Fire casts, by contrast, should be shorter IMO with Molten Core up. We can allow DoTs in metamorphosis but the problem with that is the Doom glyph, so in my opinion it should just be removed along with Touch of Chaos - then Corruption refreshing would be required in Meta.

2) "Consistent Burst" is an oxymoron. "Situational Burst" is non-existent for warlocks, take a look at Hagara. The ramp-up time is too big for all specs to talk of "burst," let alone "situational burst."

3) Demonic Fury, as mentioned, needs to be more than an overglorified ragebar. Right now it seems really confusing (as to what it actually does) and clunky to manage. Make it more clear what generates (or doesn't generate) Demonic Fury, and add a scaling benefit to encourage active Metamorphosis management.

[Paraclef]

Soul Fire casts, by contrast, should be shorter IMO with Molten Core up

Actually Soulfire should be nerfed to 20 demonic fury. If its cast should be shorter ( your pov ) then its df generation should be 15.

[Dizzion]

I think that a lot of you are forgetting that meta has an auto attack that you should be taking advantage of because it allows you to stay in meta longer and overall does more damage than shadow bolt spam so combining slashes and auto attack tell you drop out of form to reapply dots and HoG will be crucial to maximum dps as demonology.

[Szemere]

Everybody knows that the actual complexity of Demonology lies in the long-term cooldown and Meta management, and is boring as hell when there is no Meta up. Hell, on live, if you don't stand in melee range, and you use the incinerate spec, the only buttons you use when after engaging combat, and while waiting for Meta, are:
-Incinerate
-Hand of Guldan
-Doom (1min), altho preferably refreshed during meta and not out of it.
-Elements (5min)
-Corruption
-Soulburn because of 4set

And to be honest, if you look at ALL other specs, it's just the same.

UHDK: scourge strike 33% of time, death coil 25% of time
FDK: 25% oblit, 25% HB, 33% froststrike
boomkin: 3/8 wrath, 1/3 starfire
feral: 3/8 waiting, 30% shred
BM: 40% arcaneshot, 1/3 cobra
MM: 50% steady, 35% aimed
SV: 50% cobra 25% explosive
arcane: 85% AB
fire: 80% fireball
frost: 2/3 frostbolt
ret: 1/3 CS 1/3 TV
shadow: 70% mindflay
asas: 20% envenom, 20% backstab, 20% mut, but 30% waiting. (least repetitive)
combat: 50% sinister.
sub: 25% waiting, 30% backstab (not too repetitive)
ele: 70% LB
enhance: 30% LB, 15% storm, 10% lava (least repetitive)
arms: 25% MS, 25% OP (not so repetitive)
fury: 40% bloodthirst 25% raging blow
demo pre-mop: 50% incin
demo in mop: 40% SB 30% slash
destro: 40% incin
affliction: 50% SB 20% DS

TLDR: numbers how much you're spamming a single skill doesn't say much at all, in how complex it's rotation is.

[Josh Yaxley]

EDIT: I'm an idiot <3

[Inactivity]

Actually Soulfire should be nerfed to 20 demonic fury. If its cast should be shorter ( your pov ) then its df generation should be 15.

Obviously a shorter cast time (as I think Soul Fire with MC should have) would be balanced by lower damage and fury generation. But a faster cast time has 1) less movement penalty (marginally, the real way to help movement penalty is to get rid of casts altogether), but more importantly 2) feels more fun to play and keeps the game more fast-paced.

(as an aside, Dark Apotheosis in my opinion should have no cast time on MC Soul Fire, but obviously that's not the topic of discussion here since we wouldn't use it in a raid-DPS rotation.)

And I get what he is trying to say about Auto-Attack Josh, this was what I brought up earlier (Touch of Chaos) when I said I thought it should just be removed completely.

[salpsan]

Who enjoys it, 6% of wow population? we're the least played class atm.

i dont want the class to be appealing to ppl who play mages or paladins or w/e
the warlock is my class and prefer it to be diff.
it isnt meant to be liked by EVERYONE.....6% is enough and i love the exclusivity

[Valyna]

I love how I am accused of "raping" the word "complexity" by some ignorant ones who think that it equates to "complexity" in hardware requirement.

Number of skills adds mechanical difficulty - being forced to allocate more keybinds and possibly purchasing new hardware. In my opinion, this is bad design.

Well, i don´t know why you are quoting me, but:
Sure, more skills/keybindings makes the specc more difficult...more, like 1,0001 is more than 1. I dont think that the live rotation is the hard thing on demo. Sure, there are more dots, but one of them gets auto-refreshed, the other one lasts one minute, and the last is still on beta. Molten Core is still there, even if its the same spell like execute. So the only thing we really lost from our rota is shadowflame, and thats a melee-range spell.
The real difficult thing on dämo on live is to handle the specc on heavy movementfights because of the quite long casts and to use the damn long lasting and important meta CD right. While the rota is always the same, the CD reset of meta changes from fight to fight. I know, meta isn´t working like that anymore, but that doesn´t do anything to the "complexity" of the specc, only to the difficulty.
My post was anyway meant for the spent-time graph at the first post. I agree that demo is getting easier, but not because of the lost spells.

[Inactivity]

I said in an earlier post that I think Demo is getting easier not because of losing spells (which we are hardly losing any) but rather because of Demonic Slash being instant cast. Adding a cast time, even a relatively short (1.2 sec) one would make it feel a lot more like the live rotation.

[Josh Yaxley]

I don't know tbh, giving Demonic Slash a cast time will just make it feel like Arcane Blast. At least if it's instant cast we can move about :P

[Shiekyerbooty]

I have played warlock for almost 3 years ....I love Demo as it is right now

Rolled a firemage just in case blizz ruins Demo....I have empty slots in my action bar......? wtf ....empty slots in my action bar, how weird is that ?

[Josh Yaxley]

I agree with you, Demo is my favourite dps spec


Oh, and I'd forgotten about Touch of Chaos tbh, which makes Corruption almost "fire and forget", now we have like, 3 attacks xD (yes I know we have lots of cooldowns, still would like more DoTs or another Hand of Gul'dan-like ability to keep me from feeling bored).

[Dizzion]

Auto attack people what caster that you know of has a ranged auto attack that does good damage.