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  1. #21
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    You'd think with so many abilities that at least one of them would be good for a concept as fucking simple as beating on a tendon >.<
    Demo is easily fine for Spine HC.



    I don't see how you can count defensive/movement abilities as beneficial towards a fun dps rotation. Also, I think you're underestimating how much a loss of just a few moves can make. For instance, the removal of Shadowflame means that instead of using a different spell every 12 seconds, we can continue spamming Shadow Bolt, yay.

    Also, in Metamorphosis our rotation is reduced to like, 1 or 2 moves or something stupid.

  2. #22
    Hmm. You were beating on about number of abilities. That's gone up, not down, as I pointed out.

    You obviously missed that I separated utility abilities (which still may be required to be used every minute or less, and still take up keyboard space) and standard dps rotation abilities. Keep in mind many utility abilities, on many fights, will be required for top DPS. For instance, burning rush on Yor'sahj/Zon'ozz if you do adds. Obviously Ultraxion requires fewer buttons and a simpler rotation, but on live Ultraxion requires fewer buttons and a simpler rotation as well.

    You've gone from "gutted wholly into 2-button spec" to "OMGWELOSE1BUTTON! ENDOFTHEWORLD!" which in my opinion is a rather pathetic stance to take at this point and shows how big of an exaggeration the complaints were at the beginning.

    Your graph has the same % of DPS taken from two abilities as on live and now this short-sighted "we're arcane mages!" group has to come up with lame excuses as to why things are "bad." Who knows? Perhaps for the celebrated multi-target rotation (which you've backed up to, since single-target is just as easy in live) Carrion Swarm will be required, as will Immolation Aura.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Now to where I actually agree with you guys:
    (i.e. where I think things could be improved)

    Metamorphosis Rotation has corruption on auto-refresh. So we use Demonic Slash and Soul Fire. We are unable to use HoG, so we don't.

    What really makes me feel the spec is too "simple" is not the amount of abilities, it's the lack of cast times in Metamorphosis. Adding a short cast time to Demonic Slash and allowing HoG to be used in Metamorphosis form will make us feel a lot less like a "1-1-1-1-1-1-1" caster.

    - Ideally with full-geared haste, I'd aim for Demonic Slash to be around a 1.2 sec cast, with Soul Fire around 1.1 sec. Shadow Bolt would be around 1.6 sec.

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    P.P.S (i.e. on another positive note)

    While actually adding some more abilities and changing some, I think that in MOP our abilities will be much more useful. Like I said a big weakness was that our abilities were bad for burst no matter how many we had - no matter how much people bleat about "demo was fine," it really wasn't especially from a Pure DPS standpoint.

    What's more important than having abilities for the sake of having abilities is having useful abilities that do things - and this is where I think Blizzard did much better than in Cataclysm. We have one spec that promises stronger on-demand burst, while maintaining our ability to do sustained and medium-burst damage.
    Last edited by Inactivity; 2012-05-07 at 03:51 PM.

  3. #23
    The Patient
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    Whoever said warlocks dont react well to burst situations ten u r wrong
    Demo has great situational burst and destro has sick consistent burst
    Also id wish they kept destro the same as it is on live im o e of te few destro locks on my server in raidingguilds and i love it
    i get on the beta and its still fun but just feels gutted
    And im sorry but fire mages dont take that much skill esp with a debuff tracker watch to make sure u have a strong pyro crit, living bomb dot, and bam u hit combustion only thing in the spec u have to put a lil effort in try playing destro competitively and tell me wuts differe

  4. #24
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    Meh my main point throughout the whole thing is that I've played Demo live, I've played it on Beta: Beta Demo seems so dull. Sad panda.

  5. #25
    1) I agree with you there Josh, but I don't think that adding abilities is the solution. Rather, as I mentioned, make the abilities work better - give Demonic Slash a relatively short cast-time, and increase what you can do in Metamorphosis. Soul Fire casts, by contrast, should be shorter IMO with Molten Core up. We can allow DoTs in metamorphosis but the problem with that is the Doom glyph, so in my opinion it should just be removed along with Touch of Chaos - then Corruption refreshing would be required in Meta.

    2) "Consistent Burst" is an oxymoron. "Situational Burst" is non-existent for warlocks, take a look at Hagara. The ramp-up time is too big for all specs to talk of "burst," let alone "situational burst."

    3) Demonic Fury, as mentioned, needs to be more than an overglorified ragebar. Right now it seems really confusing (as to what it actually does) and clunky to manage. Make it more clear what generates (or doesn't generate) Demonic Fury, and add a scaling benefit to encourage active Metamorphosis management.

  6. #26
    I think that a lot of you are forgetting that meta has an auto attack that you should be taking advantage of because it allows you to stay in meta longer and overall does more damage than shadow bolt spam so combining slashes and auto attack tell you drop out of form to reapply dots and HoG will be crucial to maximum dps as demonology.

  7. #27
    Warchief Szemere's Avatar
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    Everybody knows that the actual complexity of Demonology lies in the long-term cooldown and Meta management, and is boring as hell when there is no Meta up. Hell, on live, if you don't stand in melee range, and you use the incinerate spec, the only buttons you use when after engaging combat, and while waiting for Meta, are:
    -Incinerate
    -Hand of Guldan
    -Doom (1min), altho preferably refreshed during meta and not out of it.
    -Elements (5min)
    -Corruption
    -Soulburn because of 4set

    And to be honest, if you look at ALL other specs, it's just the same.

    UHDK: scourge strike 33% of time, death coil 25% of time
    FDK: 25% oblit, 25% HB, 33% froststrike
    boomkin: 3/8 wrath, 1/3 starfire
    feral: 3/8 waiting, 30% shred
    BM: 40% arcaneshot, 1/3 cobra
    MM: 50% steady, 35% aimed
    SV: 50% cobra 25% explosive
    arcane: 85% AB
    fire: 80% fireball
    frost: 2/3 frostbolt
    ret: 1/3 CS 1/3 TV
    shadow: 70% mindflay
    asas: 20% envenom, 20% backstab, 20% mut, but 30% waiting. (least repetitive)
    combat: 50% sinister.
    sub: 25% waiting, 30% backstab (not too repetitive)
    ele: 70% LB
    enhance: 30% LB, 15% storm, 10% lava (least repetitive)
    arms: 25% MS, 25% OP (not so repetitive)
    fury: 40% bloodthirst 25% raging blow
    demo pre-mop: 50% incin
    demo in mop: 40% SB 30% slash

    destro: 40% incin
    affliction: 50% SB 20% DS

    TLDR: numbers how much you're spamming a single skill doesn't say much at all, in how complex it's rotation is.

  8. #28
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    EDIT: I'm an idiot <3
    Last edited by Yax; 2012-05-07 at 07:39 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Paraclef View Post
    Actually Soulfire should be nerfed to 20 demonic fury. If its cast should be shorter ( your pov ) then its df generation should be 15.
    Obviously a shorter cast time (as I think Soul Fire with MC should have) would be balanced by lower damage and fury generation. But a faster cast time has 1) less movement penalty (marginally, the real way to help movement penalty is to get rid of casts altogether), but more importantly 2) feels more fun to play and keeps the game more fast-paced.

    (as an aside, Dark Apotheosis in my opinion should have no cast time on MC Soul Fire, but obviously that's not the topic of discussion here since we wouldn't use it in a raid-DPS rotation.)

    And I get what he is trying to say about Auto-Attack Josh, this was what I brought up earlier (Touch of Chaos) when I said I thought it should just be removed completely.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by n0n3 View Post
    Who enjoys it, 6% of wow population? we're the least played class atm.
    i dont want the class to be appealing to ppl who play mages or paladins or w/e
    the warlock is my class and prefer it to be diff.
    it isnt meant to be liked by EVERYONE.....6% is enough and i love the exclusivity
    Peace, the number 1 reason for War.
    Fight on my minions
    /petattack

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    I love how I am accused of "raping" the word "complexity" by some ignorant ones who think that it equates to "complexity" in hardware requirement.

    Number of skills adds mechanical difficulty - being forced to allocate more keybinds and possibly purchasing new hardware. In my opinion, this is bad design.
    Well, i don´t know why you are quoting me, but:
    Sure, more skills/keybindings makes the specc more difficult...more, like 1,0001 is more than 1. I dont think that the live rotation is the hard thing on demo. Sure, there are more dots, but one of them gets auto-refreshed, the other one lasts one minute, and the last is still on beta. Molten Core is still there, even if its the same spell like execute. So the only thing we really lost from our rota is shadowflame, and thats a melee-range spell.
    The real difficult thing on dämo on live is to handle the specc on heavy movementfights because of the quite long casts and to use the damn long lasting and important meta CD right. While the rota is always the same, the CD reset of meta changes from fight to fight. I know, meta isn´t working like that anymore, but that doesn´t do anything to the "complexity" of the specc, only to the difficulty.
    My post was anyway meant for the spent-time graph at the first post. I agree that demo is getting easier, but not because of the lost spells.

  12. #32
    I said in an earlier post that I think Demo is getting easier not because of losing spells (which we are hardly losing any) but rather because of Demonic Slash being instant cast. Adding a cast time, even a relatively short (1.2 sec) one would make it feel a lot more like the live rotation.

  13. #33
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    I don't know tbh, giving Demonic Slash a cast time will just make it feel like Arcane Blast. At least if it's instant cast we can move about :P

  14. #34
    I have played warlock for almost 3 years ....I love Demo as it is right now

    Rolled a firemage just in case blizz ruins Demo....I have empty slots in my action bar......? wtf ....empty slots in my action bar, how weird is that ?

  15. #35
    High Overlord Yax's Avatar
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    I agree with you, Demo is my favourite dps spec


    Oh, and I'd forgotten about Touch of Chaos tbh, which makes Corruption almost "fire and forget", now we have like, 3 attacks xD (yes I know we have lots of cooldowns, still would like more DoTs or another Hand of Gul'dan-like ability to keep me from feeling bored).

  16. #36
    Auto attack people what caster that you know of has a ranged auto attack that does good damage.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Yaxley View Post
    Oh, and I'd forgotten about Touch of Chaos tbh, which makes Corruption almost "fire and forget", now we have like, 3 attacks xD (yes I know we have lots of cooldowns, still would like more DoTs or another Hand of Gul'dan-like ability to keep me from feeling bored).
    Yeah, IMO they should just remove Touch of Chaos completely (such poor design), while making Corruption refreshable in Meta.

    Another issue with instant-cast Demonic Slash is that there is even more of a premium on being in melee, which is that you can auto-attack. Of course, Touch of Chaos does extra damage and requires melee if you have a melee weapon (staff), but even removing it will still make auto-attacking give extra DPS, even if it is tiny, and requires standing behind bosses (yuck).

    With a cast-time, you won't be able to melee except in Dark Apotheosis (where I think Touch of Chaos could be preserved). As for DoTs, I again don't think more is the solution (we're going from 1 refreshed + 1 non-refreshed to just 1 non-refreshed) especially since more DoTs just means more ramp-up and less burst potential.

  18. #38
    Like i already said in an other thread: they should add a casttime to demonic slash and let us cast it while moving like lightningbolt for shamans, maybe also with kick protection. Its the same thing like the instant cast and also removes the autohit "problem".
    HoG during meta would also be nice. I don´t really get it why they don´t want us to use HoG in meta anyway

  19. #39
    I love it on Beta (as well as Demon Hunting glyph) and hope it will go live.
    Less keys, more dps, more pvp survivability (even feeding on mages tears in Dark Apotheosis)? Yes please!

    Ib4 wrath baby, I am lock since 2006 xd and MoP beta is the most fun i had since SL/SL spec in BC

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    Yeah, IMO they should just remove Touch of Chaos completely (such poor design), while making Corruption refreshable in Meta.

    Another issue with instant-cast Demonic Slash is that there is even more of a premium on being in melee, which is that you can auto-attack. Of course, Touch of Chaos does extra damage and requires melee if you have a melee weapon (staff), but even removing it will still make auto-attacking give extra DPS, even if it is tiny, and requires standing behind bosses (yuck).

    With a cast-time, you won't be able to melee except in Dark Apotheosis (where I think Touch of Chaos could be preserved). As for DoTs, I again don't think more is the solution (we're going from 1 refreshed + 1 non-refreshed to just 1 non-refreshed) especially since more DoTs just means more ramp-up and less burst potential.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyna View Post
    Like i already said in an other thread: they should add a casttime to demonic slash and let us cast it while moving like lightningbolt for shamans, maybe also with kick protection. Its the same thing like the instant cast and also removes the autohit "problem".
    HoG during meta would also be nice. I don´t really get it why they don´t want us to use HoG in meta anyway
    Keep in mind they don't want us using DoTs or HoG (applies shadowflame DoT) in meta, because then it becomes a necessity to refresh DoTs while in meta for maximum DPS. Essentially, then DoT refreshing becomes a stance dance.

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