In-depth Disjointed Heroic raid lockout question

[Shibboleths]

1) Say a heroic run kills Heroic Morchok, Yor'sahj, Zon'ozz, and then somebody leaves

then they kill normal Hagara due to being down a person, but switch back to Heroic for Ultraxion since that's just a DPS race which they can do.

The person who left be saved to Hagara completely if the main group downed Heroic Ultraxion, due to it still being the same Heroic ID, yes? Or does disjointed progression effect the ID some how? (Probably not?)


2) Even crazier question:

If the person who left got a group of his own and killed Heroic Hagara while the other team did normal Hagara, could you separate the lockouts from each other in that manner temporarily? (But there would probably be a conflict by the time they both got to Heroic Ultraxion anyway, right?)

Either way, do you think heroic Ultraxion would probably be the determining factor in both scenarios due to heroic raid IDs being static?

[Firebert]

The person who left be saved to Hagara completely if the main group downed Heroic Ultraxion, due to it still being the same Heroic ID, yes? Or does disjointed progression effect the ID some how?

The person that left can go back and kill Normal Hagara with another group.

If the person who left got a group of his own and killed Heroic Hagara while the other team did normal Hagara, could you separate the lockouts from each other in that manner temporarily? (But there would probably be a conflict by the time they both got to Heroic Ultraxion anyway, right?)

Either way, do you think heroic Ultraxion would probably be the determining factor in both scenarios due to heroic raid IDs being static?

If one player left and did Heroic Hagara, while the rest did normal, that group (when reformed) cannot proceed on and do Heroic Ultraxion, as at least one player (all but one, in fact) has missed out on a Heroic kill for the week.

Basically, as soon as you do Normal, you forgo the opportunity to do Heroic for the remainder of the bosses.

[Confirm Deny]

If the 2nd group downed Heroic Hagara before the 1st did normal, it would probably just lockout the 1st group from Hagara in general.

If the 1st group did Normal Hagara first (which is more likely, because it'd be faster), then Ultraxion would probably still be a problem. You're right.
(Firebert is definitely right about being able to do normal mode Hagara with the 2nd group, though)

vvv

You mean that the 1st group (normal Hagara) could not re-obtain their Heroic ID at all because it has been taken from them, yes?

That seems to be the gist of it.

[Shibboleths]

Thank you, Firebert.

To clarify:

that group (when reformed) cannot proceed on and do Heroic Ultraxion, as at least one player (all but one, in fact) has missed out on a Heroic kill for the week.

You mean that the 1st group (normal Hagara) could not re-obtain their Heroic ID at all because it has been taken from them, yes?
I suppose that isn't such a bad thing, if it means at least one group got to have a full heroic ID.

[Firebert]

Thank you, Firebert.

To clarify:

You mean that the 1st group (normal Hagara) could not re-obtain their Heroic ID at all because it has been taken from them, yes?
I suppose that isn't such a bad thing, if it means at least one group got to have a full heroic ID.

It's not exactly "taken" from them. They took it away from themselves by doing Normal Hagara.

[Porcell]

1) Say a heroic run kills Heroic Morchok, Yor'sahj, Zon'ozz, and then somebody leaves

then they kill normal Hagara due to being down a person, but switch back to Heroic for Ultraxion since that's just a DPS race which they can do.

The person who left be saved to Hagara completely if the main group downed Heroic Ultraxion, due to it still being the same Heroic ID, yes? Or does disjointed progression effect the ID some how? (Probably not?)

Once a person kills a heroic boss, that generates a unique raid ID for that instance and all members of the raid are then saved to that raid ID.
So in your example, Players A B C D E F G H I J all zone into a 10 man DS and kill heroic Morchok. Raid ID # 24689 is created and Players A-J are all saved to that raid ID. They go on and kill Heroic Yor'sahj and Heroic Zon'ozz, then player J leaves the instance. They kill normal Hagara, and kill Heroic Ultraxion, then say they quit for the night.

At this point in time, Player J has two options. He can rejoin the heroic raid ID#24689 which now has 5 bosses dead, OR he is elligible to join a normal difficulty raid that has the first three bosses (or more) dead. Note that if he zones into the heroic raid ID he will get saved to 5/8 dead (assuming he clicks Yes and doesn't zone back out immediately).

2) Even crazier question:

If the person who left got a group of his own and killed Heroic Hagara while the other team did normal Hagara, could you separate the lockouts from each other in that manner temporarily? (But there would probably be a conflict by the time they both got to Heroic Ultraxion anyway, right?)

Either way, do you think heroic Ultraxion would probably be the determining factor in both scenarios due to heroic raid IDs being static?

So person J leaves the raid and gets 9 brand new people. J and the 9 brand new people zone into his heroic raid #24689 and kill heroic Hagara. Meanwhile the 9 people from the original raid change it to normal mode and kill normal Hagara. Could A-I and J then drop groups and re-team up and zone into #24689 that now as a 4/8 Heroic lockout.

Um... I don't really know how to answer that... it seems like it should work.

[Omertocracy]

Heroic does not affect lockouts. If you have killed Morchok, Zon'ozz, anad Yor'sahj then leave group, you are still locked to those three even if the group continues without you. If the group kills Hagara and Ultraxion, you are still locked to the first three while the rest are to the first five. If you then rejoin them and down the boat, you are then locked to the first six.

If you down Hagara simultaneously while they are downing Hagara, you are saved to first four, while they are also saved to first four.

[Porcell]

If one player left and did Heroic Hagara, while the rest did normal, that group (when reformed) cannot proceed on and do Heroic Ultraxion, as at least one player (all but one, in fact) has missed out on a Heroic kill for the week.

Basically, as soon as you do Normal, you forgo the opportunity to do Heroic for the remainder of the bosses.

I'm puzzled by your last statement. On its own (in a normal situation), the statement isn't true, since you can obviously turn it to normal, kill Yorsahj and Zonozz, and then flip it back to heroic to kill Hagara.

It's further weird because "not" killing a boss doesn't exclude you from future bosses, as evidenced by people sitting on a bench and swapping in and out.

So the situation is weird because it would be like "your bench" going off and killing Normal Hagara while your main raid kills it on heroic. To me, it would seem like all persons involved would still be saved to specific raid ID #24689, and that raid ID would have heroic hagara dead in it.

I don't really know.

[Shibboleths]

Once a person kills a heroic boss, that generates a unique raid ID for that instance and all members of the raid are then saved to that raid ID.
Note that if he [(Player J)] zones into the heroic raid ID he will get saved to 5/8 dead (assuming he clicks Yes and doesn't zone back out immediately).

Yes. I should have mentioned this was all supposed to be in relation to the static Heroic ID. For the second part:

Could A-I and J then drop groups and re-team up and zone into #24689 that now as a 4/8 Heroic lockout[?]

I didn't need to know if they could ever re-team up, but this is interesting. I think Firebert's answer still applies about players A-I being unable to join the Heroic, because you can not join a Heroic raid that is further progressed than yourself if you are saved to a lesser Heroic raid.

Edit:

Basically, as soon as you do Normal, you forgo the opportunity to do Heroic for the remainder of the bosses.

It's further weird because "not" killing a boss doesn't exclude you from future bosses, as evidenced by people sitting on a bench and swapping in and out.

Other than Heroic Spine, of course. You have to kill at least 6/8H to do H Spine.
I was also wondering if Firebert meant it was Group A-I's fault in relation to Player J. I think he meant that, like I meant in relation to H Spine.

Either way, I believe the normal Hagara group would be unable to do Heroic Ultraxion. At least the Heroic group could continue the whole way through to Madness, I believe?

---------- Post added 2012-05-09 at 06:16 PM ----------

Heroic does not affect lockouts. If the group kills Hagara and Ultraxion, you are still locked to the first three while the rest are to the first five.

Yes, but the question was more about what happens if the person who left tries to resume the Heroic raid.

So, did you mean normal Hagara and Heroic Ultraxion, or do you think it doesn't matter?

I know for a fact you can not join a Heroic ID that is more progressed than your Heroic ID during the same week or lockout, at least.

[Drugshock]

I know for a fact you can not join a Heroic ID that is more progressed than your Heroic ID during the same week or lockout, at least.

So... I got on my DK to help a Group from my Guild and got saved 6/8h. They'll still do some tries on H-Spine this week and prolly extend the lockout..

With another group, could I just kill normal Spine, extend the lockout, and use it later, in another week, to start progressing right on H-Madness? (Saw some ppl on another thread sayin' that it would be possible since Spine + Madness act like only 1 boss, something like that..)

Would this (normal kill + extend) affect their lockout (maybe extended too) in any way?

[Shibboleths]

1) I have not tried to skip H Spine in that manner, Drugshock, but I'd be surprised if it was possible to do H Madness without H Spine. (Unless somebody has proven to you it can be done.)

2)Also, I am unsure of what happens with extended lockouts in this manner, as well.

Normally, I'd hope if you took another group to their Heroic lockout for normal Spine, but the other group did not do Spine from the week prior, that the Heroic extension ID could become two separate IDs due to one ending on Spine (which could still do heriocs) and one on Madness (which I doubt you could do on heroic, but that's just an aside).

It depends on whether an extended lockout becomes its own entity or not between two weeks. I am actually skeptical, but it would be very interesting.
Within the same week, certainly not. I will post my results for my question regarding Ultraxion, and look forward to yours if you try =P

[Firebert]

Would this (normal kill + extend) affect their lockout (maybe extended too) in any way?

What you do doesn't affect anyone else's lockout any more. If you kill Normal Spine, you forgo the chance to attempt Heroic Madness, and can only do Normal Madness until you reset your lockout.

[Deleted]

Basically, as soon as you do Normal, you forgo the opportunity to do Heroic for the remainder of the bosses.

Not true at all...
You can do morchok hc, yorsahj normal, warlord hc, normal hagara, ultra hc etc, or do first 3 normal and up to warmaster hc...

What cant be done is clear one hc boss, someone leaves, they keep clearing up to warmaster hc. The person who leaves can now only do normal up to warmaster..

---------- Post added 2012-05-10 at 08:13 AM ----------

What you do doesn't affect anyone else's lockout any more. If you kill Normal Spine, you forgo the chance to attempt Heroic Madness, and can only do Normal Madness until you reset your lockout.

Also not true, if you are just guessing please stop posting...
I've done normal spine but heroic madness, we've also extended todo clear some hc, some normal (mostly our rogue needed clusters during an exteneded week) todo kill madness hc...

---------- Post added 2012-05-10 at 08:33 AM ----------

So... I got on my DK to help a Group from my Guild and got saved 6/8h. They'll still do some tries on H-Spine this week and prolly extend the lockout..

With another group, could I just kill normal Spine, extend the lockout, and use it later, in another week, to start progressing right on H-Madness? (Saw some ppl on another thread sayin' that it would be possible since Spine + Madness act like only 1 boss, something like that..)

Not possible, you would have killed normal spine = madness wont spawn.
You could however leave at warmaster, 10 other people kill spine heroic and you join in for madness hc.

[Simca]

This thread is very relevant to my interests - I have a similar situation. I have a 6/7 Heroic Ragnaros lockout on 2 characters. Both characters were part of the same lock (which is expired on both toons).

Can I "duplicate" my Heroic Ragnaros lockout (6/7 H) killing him on one toon (extending the lock for just that toon) and then killing him on the other toon the week afterwards?

[Firebert]

This thread is very relevant to my interests - I have a similar situation. I have a 6/7 Heroic Ragnaros lockout on 2 characters. Both characters were part of the same lock (which is expired on both toons).

Can I "duplicate" my Heroic Ragnaros lockout (6/7 H) killing him on one toon (extending the lock for just that toon) and then killing him on the other toon the week afterwards?

Yup. Locks are now player based, not raid based. This is to stop people taking your 6/7H lock and killing Heroic Rag, preventing you from killing Heroic Rag (which is exactly what happened to players in guilds during WotLK Naxx 2.0: players would leave KT up for the next raid night, while someone in the raid would go off and sell the lock and screw the other players out of a KT kill).

[maky13]

Long reply to cover as much as I can.

2) Even crazier question:

If the person who left got a group of his own and killed Heroic Hagara while the other team did normal Hagara, could you separate the lockouts from each other in that manner temporarily? (But there would probably be a conflict by the time they both got to Heroic Ultraxion anyway, right?)

Either way, do you think heroic Ultraxion would probably be the determining factor in both scenarios due to heroic raid IDs being static?

So basically, you have a 3/8H lockout, and two "teams" A and B. Team A is the original group except the player who left, and Team B is lead by the player who left. Team A wants to do Hagara normal and Ultraxion heroic, and Team B wants to do Hagara heroic. Both teams have the same heroic ID. Which team will get the ID? Answer is somewhat confusing: the one who will zone in the heroic instance first. So there are two possiblities:
- Team A kills Hagara normal before Team B formed up, and sets the instance to heroic and proceeds to do Ultraxion. In this case, when Team B attempts to zone in the heroic instance, they would get a "You are not in this instance group" message and be booted out.
- Team B starts on Hagara heroic mode while Team A starts on Hagara normal mode. After Team A kills Hagara normal, they try to put the instance on heroic. This time they will get the "You are not in this instance group" message and be booted out.

If one player left and did Heroic Hagara, while the rest did normal, that group (when reformed) cannot proceed on and do Heroic Ultraxion, as at least one player (all but one, in fact) has missed out on a Heroic kill for the week.

Basically, as soon as you do Normal, you forgo the opportunity to do Heroic for the remainder of the bosses.

Not true. The group will miss Hagara normal, but they will be able to do Ultraxion heroic (and onwards) assuming that the player who left didn`t kill anything more than Hagara.

So person J leaves the raid and gets 9 brand new people. J and the 9 brand new people zone into his heroic raid #24689 and kill heroic Hagara. Meanwhile the 9 people from the original raid change it to normal mode and kill normal Hagara. Could A-I and J then drop groups and re-team up and zone into #24689 that now as a 4/8 Heroic lockout.

Um... I don't really know how to answer that... it seems like it should work.

Yes, this works. Nothing to add here because the explanation is perfectly spot-on.

So the situation is weird because it would be like "your bench" going off and killing Normal Hagara while your main raid kills it on heroic. To me, it would seem like all persons involved would still be saved to specific raid ID #24689, and that raid ID would have heroic hagara dead in it.

That is correct.

So... I got on my DK to help a Group from my Guild and got saved 6/8h. They'll still do some tries on H-Spine this week and prolly extend the lockout..

With another group, could I just kill normal Spine, extend the lockout, and use it later, in another week, to start progressing right on H-Madness? (Saw some ppl on another thread sayin' that it would be possible since Spine + Madness act like only 1 boss, something like that..)

Would this (normal kill + extend) affect their lockout (maybe extended too) in any way?

It would affect their lockout, yes. I would advise against doing this, because you`d (involuntarly) end up stealing their ID.

Normally, I'd hope if you took another group to their Heroic lockout for normal Spine, but the other group did not do Spine from the week prior, that the Heroic extension ID could become two separate IDs due to one ending on Spine (which could still do heriocs) and one on Madness (which I doubt you could do on heroic, but that's just an aside).

It depends on whether an extended lockout becomes its own entity or not between two weeks. I am actually skeptical, but it would be very interesting.
Within the same week, certainly not. I will post my results for my question regarding Ultraxion, and look forward to yours if you try =P

I will use again Team A and Team B. Say they team up (pun intended!) and clear 6/8H. Thus, both are locked to the same heroic 6/8 ID. Now, Team A wants to progress on heroic spine, while Team B kills normal mode spine and leaves the instance for now, planning to extend it later. The following can happen:
- If Team A kills spine, then the heroic lockout updates to 7/8H, thus enabling both teams to attempt Madness. Team A obviously has the 7/8H, and Team B will get saved to that one as soon as they put the instance to heroic. However, they can do it only one at a time and only one of them can kill Madness, because as soon as Madness is dead for one team, the lockout updates to 8/8H, and thus the other team is unable to pull it anymore.
- If Team A fails to kill spine, let`s say they take a few days break. In the meantime, Team B sets the instance to heroic after killing spine normal. First of all this is pointless to do (so it`s a mistake), because that would render both teams unable to pull Madness heroic, becase their lockout would update to 7/8H but without the "flag" that Spine was actually killed in heroic, so Madness won`t be available. It`s a bit difficult to find proper words to explain this, so feel free to ask for more details.

This thread is very relevant to my interests - I have a similar situation. I have a 6/7 Heroic Ragnaros lockout on 2 characters. Both characters were part of the same lock (which is expired on both toons).

Can I "duplicate" my Heroic Ragnaros lockout (6/7 H) killing him on one toon (extending the lock for just that toon) and then killing him on the other toon the week afterwards?

Nop. Once one of the toons kills it, when the other attempts to zone in the extended lockout, it will say 7/7H killed. I can confirm this 100% through personal first-hand experience.

[Shibboleths]

Yep.

As expected, the Heroic ID was definitely still stolen between normal and Heroic Hagara groups when Group B went all the way through to Madness. (Group A was a less progressed guild, so they just missed out on H Ultraxion without any real loss in progression). As for if they could have done Heroic Ultraxion if Group B subsequently left after H Hagara: Probably, like Maky says.

As for the extended lockouts: They definitely don't ever become different entities. I don't know why I tried to be so circumspect, but what Maky said is the cold hard truth of what I was pointing toward in a silly, indecisive manner =P

[Wilderness]

This thread is very relevant to my interests - I have a similar situation. I have a 6/7 Heroic Ragnaros lockout on 2 characters. Both characters were part of the same lock (which is expired on both toons).

Can I "duplicate" my Heroic Ragnaros lockout (6/7 H) killing him on one toon (extending the lock for just that toon) and then killing him on the other toon the week afterwards?

Unless they stealth changed something in 4.3 then no, that won't work. We tried to do something similar in 4.2 with an alt getting saved our 6/7H lockout and then leaving group. But when we killed H Rag the alt's lockout was 7/7H as well. So once you kill it on one of your toons the other one will also have a 7/7H lockout.

[Jinto]

snip

This is incorrect. There is nothing preventing group 1 (the group that didn't do H Hagara) from doing H Ultraxion assuming no further H bosses have been killed and the 2nd group is not in the H instance in that particular heroic lockout. Anyway H lockout is instance based, so yes you can steal someone's 6/7H FL lockout to do H Rag and whoever had that lockout before is SoL.

snip

This is correct.