Bastion of Glory....

[Talen]

What if it affected Divine Light instead of WoG?

EJL

[Deleted]

Is this a serious post?

[Chickat]

Is this a serious post?

^ prot doesn't have divine light.

[Gallahadd]

What if instead of a 10/20/30/40/50% increased WoG, buffed by Mastery, Bastion of Glory gave us a shield for 10/20/30/40/50% of the total healing from WoG, increased by Mastery?

[Milocow]

What's EJL btw?

[Deleted]

I, personally, don't understand why they need to make the protection paladin the second self-sufficient-healing tank, after the blood deathknight, messing with Shield of the Righteous and the mastery. And no, I don't buy their current explanations on "active mitigation bla-bla"..

[Talen]

Prot won't have divine light in mists and even if it was given to prot, you can't dodge/block/parry while casting.

OK -

What if Bastion affected a mana based healing spell akin to:

Reduces the cast time and mana cost of Spell X, and improves its effectiveness by Y%?

Prot doesn't have DL, no...but it could be given it. Or it could use HL, FoL or another spell othert than WoG which would share resources with SotR.

Happy?

What if instead of a 10/20/30/40/50% increased WoG, buffed by Mastery, Bastion of Glory gave us a shield for 10/20/30/40/50% of the total healing from WoG, increased by Mastery?

I'm leaning towards that effect for Seal of Righteousness myself; simply translate DPS into Shielding like the current set piece.

More seriously, Mastery giving a shield of some sort instead of overhealing would likely be beneficial to the class when it isn't soloing. The trouble I see is that I'm wondering how often WoG will be used given the resources need to be shared with SotR.

EJL

[Elovan]

What's EJL btw?

EJL is just how Talen ends his posts, afaik it doesn't actually mean anything, pretty sure I remember reading him say that somewhere ages ago...

[Milocow]

EJL is just how Talen ends his posts, afaik it doesn't actually mean anything, pretty sure I remember reading him say that somewhere ages ago...

but i see other people using it too o_o

[jisbilby]

OK -

What if Bastion affected a mana based healing spell akin to:

Reduces the cast time and mana cost of Spell X, and improves its effectiveness by Y%?

Prot doesn't have DL, no...but it could be given it. Or it could use HL, FoL or another spell othert than WoG which would share resources with SotR.

WoG does share resources with SotR - Holy Power.

[Boogieknight]

WoG does share resources with SotR - Holy Power.

What Talen said was:

What if Bastion affected a mana based healing spell akin to:

Or it could use HL, FoL or another spell othert than WoG which would share resources with SotR.

I believe what he's saying is that the effect should apply to a healing spell that uses Mana instead of the Holy Power required for Shield of the Righteous.

[Malthanis]

OK -

What if Bastion affected a mana based healing spell akin to:

Reduces the cast time and mana cost of Spell X, and improves its effectiveness by Y%?

Prot doesn't have DL, no...but it could be given it. Or it could use HL, FoL or another spell othert than WoG which would share resources with SotR.

Happy?

First and foremost, why? Both SotR and WoG are mitigation (the former being proactive, the latter reactive). The point of the new tanking design is to choose the best form of mitigation when using an ability, so I don't think there's any issue with the two abilities working off of Holy Power.

Not to mention the fact that mana is more like energy for us, so putting one of our primary mitigation methods (healing) as part of a resource that effectively doesn't matter to us makes for bad design.

I'm leaning towards that effect for Seal of Righteousness myself; simply translate DPS into Shielding like the current set piece.

More seriously, Mastery giving a shield of some sort instead of overhealing would likely be beneficial to the class when it isn't soloing. The trouble I see is that I'm wondering how often WoG will be used given the resources need to be shared with SotR.

SotR and WoG will be used, because they're different kinds of mitigation. If you're relatively good on HP, you'll use SotR. If your health is dipping, you'll use WoG. Proper planning and attention to mechanics will ensure that you have the Bastion stacks and Holy Power to use WoG to it's full effectivness. There's nothing involved saying that you have to use a Bastion WoG when you're at 5 stacks.

I honestly think the mastery is fine as is, although I'd like to see the overheal of WoG turned in to an absorb shield again. It wouldn't even have to be at a full return, a 50% overhealing to shielding conversion would be fine.

[Deleted]

but i see other people using it too o_o

elitist jerks ..... (league or something)

[ZeroEdgeir]

OP: If you wanna be able to use a mana-based heal, it's called "Selfless Healer", a talent in the 3rd row, that after 3 Judgements, makes your next Flash of Light free, instant, and if used on someone else, 100% more effective.

Why would you want there to be only ONE Holy Power ability for Prot, or at least with your idea, to greatly de-value the second one, that for Prot, is not even on the GCD (Like all other non-damaging tanking abilities are). Unless you think that Eternal Flame is worth using as Prot (which it likely won't be).

Protadins will either take Sacred Shield or Selfless Healer (and not for healing others, but so once every 24 sec, can pop a free extra heal for a GCD on themself).

SotR is there to be the general go-to Holy Power burn of Prot.
WoG is there for when you get hit with that massive attack, and since you've been using SotR so often prior, it is gonna heal for 50% (+Mastery, which will be up there) more. It's like how Death Knights time WHEN to use Death Strike, to maximize their heal and shield. Our heal is likely gonna be for more (cause no shield), and if we REALLY need to, we can forgo the use of SotR in favour of WoG, during high raid-damage times, to help healers out more.

Our Mastery is alot closer to a Blood DK's now. For us, it is +SotR Damage, +BoG Healing, and +Block. What more could we want (since Block itself won't be cappable, with the new DR for Block, and CTC is gone too, since Block is on a separate combat table from Hit/Miss/Dodge/Parry)?

Would I like the over-heal shield back? Yes. Can we say that it would become a possibly broken mechanic, where Prot becomes too rotational, cause you don't care if you use WoG at full or low health? Good damn chance. Does the effect of Bastion of Glory need to be relocated to Flash of Light (our ONLY other heal, that has a cast time, and thereby you can get hit HARD during casting)? Hell NO.

WoG, as others have said, is a defensive ability for Prot. This is why the Cooldown on it was removed for MoP in general, and Prot gets to remove it from the GCD too.

Also, I am happy as hell with the trimming of abilities off of classes, where you can put everything you generally need, within 2 bars now in MoP.

[underdogba]

Both SotR and WoG are mitigation (the former being proactive, the latter reactive). The point of the new tanking design is to choose the best form of mitigation when using an ability, so I don't think there's any issue with the two abilities working off of Holy Power.

A direct heal is not "mitigation" by any stretch of the imagination.

[ZeroEdgeir]

A direct heal is not "mitigation" by any stretch of the imagination.

Then go talk to DKs, that their primary mitigation ability (Death Strike), isn't mitigation.

It is, when it is not an external source (ie: The healers). It is you mitigating damage you took, to prevent yourself from dying.

Definition of "mitigation" (as per Dictionary.com): the act of making a condition or consequence less severe

I'm pretty sure self-healing counts at mitigation. It's making the amount of damage you just took less severe, so that your healers are not being strained too much.

[Talen]

First and foremost, why? Both SotR and WoG are mitigation (the former being proactive, the latter reactive). The point of the new tanking design is to choose the best form of mitigation when using an ability, so I don't think there's any issue with the two abilities working off of Holy Power.

Blizzards described the situation as "Use SotR most of the time, and WoG when you can". To me, this essentially translates into "Never use WoG because you'll be using ALL your HP for WoG".

Slight exaggeration there, but if SotR is going to be needed as Blizzard suggest, probably not much of one.

Not to mention the fact that mana is more like energy for us, so putting one of our primary mitigation methods (healing) as part of a resource that effectively doesn't matter to us makes for bad design.

In this case, the resource may or may not be a limiting factor. The issue, IMO, is more how accessible do you want this ability to be.

IF HP is going to be spent mainly on SotR, then WoG use is going to be rare...which also impacts Mastery. Theres also the issue that WoG when sued has to compensate for the loss of SotR as well as provide sufficient mitigation by itself with the corresponding thought that a WoG that provides the heavy healing to accomplish this may end up more as a CD type spell or accomplish more via overhealing thanks to the presence of healers.

By having BoG affect a mana based spell, you alleviate those concerns and potentially allow for easier balancing...e.g SS can no affect WoG again. The cost is a more mindless approach to HP usage but right now I don't think the current design is all that good myself.

There's nothing involved saying that you have to use a Bastion WoG when you're at 5 stacks.

No...the big question is how often you'll be able to do so when Blizzard plan on you spending most of your HP on SotR (you probably won't get a 5 stack that often) and how strong WoG will have to be to compensate for not using it.

Why would you want there to be only ONE Holy Power ability for Prot

I don't. I'm just wondering if the current usage of WoG is likely to be that significant. Yes,a lot will depend on the fianl values abut at the same time, using DL or similar may allow for a freer hand in design.

You get a full 3 stack after 15s or so which allows you to swap WoG for a single SotR. Whether its worth it will depend on the final values...and WoG will probably have to heal for a lot more than SotR mitigates to make it worthwhile. And do so without overhealing. Its true the class is dreadfully lacking as far as HP consumers are concerned, and its an issue that affects all the specs. You could easily afford to triple the number of consumers per spec. But thats a different argument.

EJL

[Boogieknight]

Definition of "mitigation" (as per Dictionary.com): the act of making a condition or consequence less severe

I'm pretty sure self-healing counts at mitigation. It's making the amount of damage you just took less severe, so that your healers are not being strained too much.

Healing damage taken isn't mitigation. Death Strike is mitigating future damage, not current damage, with the absorb shield provided by their mastery while simultaneously self-healing. They time their Death Strikes for when using it will provide the optimal shield absorption based on incoming damage which is why their mitigation is active instead of having buttons to hit on a timer that always have constant effects like Ardent Defender, Divine Protection, Shield Wall, or Shield Block. Blocking, parrying, dodging, or shield absorbing damage taken is mitigation. If you were going to get hit for 100k, then any of those 4 methods will reduce, or mitigate, the damage partially or entirely. Death Knights would basically eat the 100k damage and burn Death Strike healing for 20k and receiving a minimum 10k absorb shield from their mastery for future mitigation.

[underdogba]

I'm pretty sure self-healing counts at mitigation. It's making the amount of damage you just took less severe, so that your healers are not being strained too much.

The reason that "mitigation" and "self-healing" have traditionally been considered different phenomena within the tanking communities in this game because, despite the fact that often in practical play they will create a similar end result (i.e. contribute toward "survivability"), it is not possible to heal yourself after taking a hit that makes your hp drop below zero.

That is a fundamental mechanical difference between mitigation and healing that is substantive and merits distinction.

[Deleted]

What if Bastion affected a mana based healing spell akin to

Problem with this comes with the mana based spell prot pallys will get. If FoL becomes affected by BoG it makes our Selfless Healer talent to become a cookie cutter talent for prot pallys. And Blizz has said that they don't want any talent to become one.