The Math and Science Initiative; leaving English in the dust?

[Deleted]

There is no such problem in "OUR COUNTRY"
Not everyone is American.

[Kuniku]

I heard a while back that here in England they were starting to allow "text" writing in some exams, following loads of teenagers actually writing their exams out in text language O_o

I think the problem is, is that English as a subject is quite stagnant, it is what it is, a lot of other "major" subjects in theory push our understanding of the world around us, there is research to be done, things to discover, and they're a lot easier engage the younger folk's brains into.

I never enjoyed English at school, it wasn't really until I was at university i found the joy of reading, and its not until i started trying to learn another language that I realised how little I in fact knew about English.

I mean, obviously I can communicate well enough, spelling can be a bit hit or miss due to mild dyslexia, but generally I write correctly (even if I have become a bit reliant on spell check to capitalise my "i"'s lol)

But when trying to learn Japanese sentence structure, and being told that the verb goes here and the noun goes here, that is when I realised that I didn't know the difference between a noun, a verb or an advjective, let alone pronouns etc! (note I've since clued up a little more on it than before)

Anyway, unless you have younger folk who are already interested in reading, namely the "boring" books used within GCSE level (14-16 year olds for non Brits) then its going to prove very difficult to fully engage their brains.

As I said, I am a big fan of reading now, if given the free time I'll happily see a book away every week, but I think that is because I have found a genre I enjoy, I'd still struggle to go back to school and read and then write an essay on "Of Mice and Men" and "Silas Marner" which I did in my GCSE's

Get me comparing some David Gemmel and some Brent Weeks (for example) and I'd be well away!

[saberon]

I think the problem is when history is taught as a collection of facts when instead it can be taught in a way that makes students use critical thinking.

Who the fuck cares about the year when something happen when, instead, we can study its actual significance in the politics of today, for instance.

That was how my history classes were. They were brilliant and enjoyable and really got people thinking.

As for an "English" Initiative - Yes and No.
Yes if it's for basic grammar and spelling. That shit's important.

No if it's all the high-end English bullshit you do in your last few years of High School (Analytical Essays and all that bullshit). I probably spent more time "analysing" some of those books in Yr 12 than the authors did writing them. Worst of all, it was all bullshit. If I didn't say "It is probable" or "I find it likely" or "we can assume/detract/infer" or "the author no doubt..." a dozen times an essay, I wasn't trying hard enough apparently.

Yes English Spelling + Grammar, No English "English teaching is a real profession" Bullshit.

[Shammyspice]

There is no such problem in "OUR COUNTRY"
Not everyone is American.

OOooo, good catch there.
I'm also pretty sure anyone who is aware of the "Math and Science Initiative" knows it's a United States program and I didn't need to specify which country I was talking about.

[Lothaeryn]

There is no such problem in "OUR COUNTRY"
Not everyone is American.

Thank you for the more-than-obvious input that everyone in this thread already knew, your "contribution" has been noted...

This obviously doesn't only affect the united states though, because other nations do have similar issues to a degree, albeit alot less than the U.S.' archaic 19th century system.

[eriseis]

Bingo. We don't teach context and relevance, we teach fact and dates. The decline of history and literature, I think, is due to the way teachers are forced to teach - to an end of the year test where students will have to parrot back factoids they had been fed during the term. History and Lit are far too complex and intricate subjects to be able to effectively teach in such a manner. The sciences, however, can work within that system.

It's like a thread a month ago where someone asked the relevance of Shakespeare, a common response was a tautological "because it's Shakespeare!!". Alright, cool, um, the average high schooler could care less, particularly when you spend half the class explaining the syntax.

---------- Post added 2012-05-11 at 09:29 AM ----------

But when trying to learn Japanese sentence structure, and being told that the verb goes here and the noun goes here, that is when I realised that I didn't know the difference between a noun, a verb or an advjective, let alone pronouns etc! (note I've since clued up a little more on it than before)

We need less English and more Linguistics :P

[brickerz]

I think it's great our country is focused on the promotion of math/science/technology education and teachers, but what about English/History/Reading teachers? Are they not also just as important as science/math/tech is? How come there's no English Initiative? Especially when many young people have a hard time with correct spelling, punctuation, paragraph structure, penmanship, etc...due to texting/shorthand/computer spell checks. Even though most everything has converted to computers/the internet, I still say having a strong grasp on English skills is just as important as math/science skills.

While I completely support any and all education, I'm a little disappointed that any teacher who is not a math/science teacher is pretty much getting the shaft as far as media promotion goes. =/

Short answer: They're not as important in society. There are more of you than there are of STEM, and you don't produce in a meaningful way primarily to the market which governs our existence. Enjoy your degree but don't complain about lack of employment or underemployment.

[eriseis]

That was how my history classes were. They were brilliant and enjoyable and really got people thinking.

As for an "English" Initiative - Yes and No.
Yes if it's for basic grammar and spelling. That shit's important.

No if it's all the high-end English bullshit you do in your last few years of High School (Analytical Essays and all that bullshit). I probably spent more time "analysing" some of those books in Yr 12 than the authors did writing them. Worst of all, it was all bullshit. If I didn't say "It is probable" or "I find it likely" or "we can assume/detract/infer" or "the author no doubt..." a dozen times an essay, I wasn't trying hard enough apparently.

Yes English Spelling + Grammar, No English "English teaching is a real profession" Bullshit.

English can be taught like that, but the problem is that English teachers are very conservative and like to keep their status quo.

But I'm hugely biased due to my background in Linguistics and I like to poke fun at prescriptive grammarians >.>

[Deleted]

English isn't going to drive us forward like Mathematics and Science. I don't think English and History are unimportant but beyond high school level very few progressive occupations require more, the majority of that aim to be journalists and historians, authors and museum staff. Mathematics and Science however go into a lot more inventive fields. It's fairly easy to write comprehensively without having a higher degree in English and History doesn't require you be taught when it's entirely based on research.

[Shammyspice]

Short answer: They're not as important in society. There are more of you than there are of STEM, and you don't produce in a meaningful way primarily to the market which governs our existence. Enjoy your degree but don't complain about lack of employment or underemployment.

Why do you assume I'm a teacher? o.O

[eriseis]

Short answer: They're not as important in society. There are more of you than there are of STEM, and you don't produce in a meaningful way primarily to the market which governs our existence. Enjoy your degree but don't complain about lack of employment or underemployment.

Importance in terms of profitability is different from importance in terms of impact. Humanities can be used to develop critical thinking that can complement the STEM disciplines. The understanding of people and how they act and think is what makes the difference between a smart monkey and the engineer that can create an innovative and lucrative technology.

[brickerz]

Why do you assume I'm a teacher? o.O

I never assumed that or made an allusion to that anywhere in my response. I assumed that you were likely a liberal arts major given the way your question was phrased.

[Deleted]

Bingo. We don't teach context and relevance, we teach fact and dates. The decline of history and literature, I think, is due to the way teachers are forced to teach - to an end of the year test where students will have to parrot back factoids they had been fed during the term. History and Lit are far too complex and intricate subjects to be able to effectively teach in such a manner. The sciences, however, can work within that system.

Mayhaps that's how history works where you live. Here it's used to develop analytical skills. The exam at the end of the year consists of 2 Twenty Mark Essays and 3, 8-12 mark Questions involving the comparison of historical sources, picking out the relevant points and backing them up with your own background knowledge.

It's an incredibly useful subject if taught well.

[Klutzington]

I think the problem is when history is taught as a collection of facts when instead it can be taught in a way that makes students use critical thinking.

Who the fuck cares about the year when something happen when, instead, we can study its actual significance in the politics of today, for instance.

THANK YOU. This is what history classes should be like. Sadly. . . almost none are. None of the ones I have been in, anyway. =/

[brickerz]

Importance in terms of profitability is different from importance in terms of impact. Humanities can be used to develop critical thinking that can complement the STEM disciplines. The understanding of people and how they act and think is what makes the difference between a smart monkey and the engineer that can create an innovative and lucrative technology.

The difference being, a smart monkey will still produce. An English major of the same caliber is still just an English major and will produce less than the intelligent monkey. Additionally, people aren't important in STEM as much as you'd like to believe. There is evidence enough in this through the past 100 years to support that with individuals like Paul Dirac, Bohr, Feynman, and Bethe. Perhaps if your sole goal is to market a product, some menial understanding of that is necessary. However, science produces for the sake of science, the fact it benefits people occasionally is merely a welcomed factor.

[Deleted]

Literature, History and Art is in fact useless and they shouldn't be forced on students. I had more literature lessons than math and physics together, yet I don't remember anything. It was totally against my taste and I tried to waste minimal energy on learning something I hate and will never be able to use. However I liked drawing lessons, which I had only 1 * 45 min every week.... I think istead of forcing these things on students, we should get smaller "tasting periods" first and later we should choose which one to participate in. If someone does not like literature, why took 5*45 min lessons every week. Its not something you will profit from. At least as it stands in my country. For example we have to learn biography of poets and writers and learn poems, read novels that most of the class are not interested in at all. Thats literature. What will you remember from a book you don't like? :^) Mostly nothing, so its waste of time when you could practice something you like.
Learing science and language is different. They are somehow necessary to understand the objects surrounding us and be able to read/write/speak. For example if you want to use machines you should at least know what electricity is. Knowing about gravitiy is basic as well. Also some logic that makes you able to understand new mechanisms.
I'm talking about the basics of course. Science is more importants than art at the basics, but later this may change. A musician should have knowledge about (+ - / *) and gravity, but at a point they will choose to learn more about an instrument, instead of becoming a physics prof or a technician. In this case, art is important too. The difference is art shouldn't be forced on students. Its something everyone should choose for themselves.

I'm not sure how is education is exactly in your country. Teaching methods and what exactly they teach may differ from teacher to teacher. My old class had bad students too, who were against learning in any form. They did not want to do anything. But this is not really the fault of education, more like their parents who raised them up.

[Klutzington]

The difference being, a smart monkey will still produce. An English major of the same caliber is still just an English major and will produce less than the intelligent monkey. Additionally, people aren't important in STEM as much as you'd like to believe. There is evidence enough in this through the past 100 years to support that with individuals like Paul Dirac, Bohr, Feynman, and Bethe. Perhaps if your sole goal is to market a product, some menial understanding of that is necessary. However, science produces for the sake of science, the fact it benefits people occasionally is merely a welcomed factor.

Not every profession in the STEM category are equal. Obviously some are very important and some are stupid. If people pick a ridiculous major and go into that as a career then, sure, they won't do shit.

It's like saying: "Yeah, I'm going to be a Mathematics major of the Descartes Rule of Signs."

[Dundebuns]

Having done science and math pretty much solidly since I was 16, I see the need to have English and history held in higher regard in schools. They may not be immediately apparent how valuable these subjects are, but they are the basis of pretty much all of our society.

Basic language skills such as reading and writing are declining at a horrendous rate. I myself am not amazing with language skills; I have some problems with grammar and spelling for example, but you see kids coming out of pre school who cannot read or write... shit man I could read and write to a good degree before I got to that stage. Hell, I was a reading assistant for some of my fellow class mates as well. And when these kids get out of secondary school and there vocabulary extensively uses numbers as letters and words... I feel really sorry for them. They will not get any job of high standing regardless of what they are good at, if there work is littered with 'N then we went 2 da store house 4 some sl8s' no one will want them.

History is important simply because those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it. The next generation should be taught about a everything before us so they don't have to do it all again.

[Daverid]

I'm doing a English/History major as a part of my teaching degree but I also have a great respect for Science/Mathematics.

I think the major difference is that English is already insanely universal. Basically at least every first world country enforces English upon their students for all their years at school, and so they should. However History/Science/Higher level mathematics generally is a Choice after Grade 8/9. With Science and Higher level Maths being a choice countries introduce 'Math and Science Initiatives' to encourage people to tackle those Topics.

Science, Technologies and Math are much more niche areas then Writing or Poetry for example. Anyone with Basic English can pick up a Pen and Paper and Write a Story. However it requires a much greater level of desire and focus to get into the Sciences. Personally I don't think the amount of Authors or Poets in the world is dwindling at any point now or for the foreseeable future, and I don't think English is really in any worse of a position now then it used to be. These Math and Science Initiatives are just out there to try and get more people involved in an extremely interesting, albeit difficult, field.

[Klutzington]

Having done science and math pretty much solidly since I was 16, I see the need to have English and history held in higher regard in schools. They may not be immediately apparent how valuable these subjects are, but they are the basis of pretty much all of our society.

Basic language skills such as reading and writing are declining at a horrendous rate. I myself am not amazing with language skills; I have some problems with grammar and spelling for example, but you see kids coming out of pre school who cannot read or write... shit man I could read and write to a good degree before I got to that stage. Hell, I was a reading assistant for some of my fellow class mates as well. And when these kids get out of secondary school and there vocabulary extensively uses numbers as letters and words... I feel really sorry for them. They will not get any job of high standing regardless of what they are good at, if there work is littered with 'N then we went 2 da store house 4 some sl8s' no one will want them.

History is important simply because those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it. The next generation should be taught about a everything before us so they don't have to do it all again.

I know this is the internet where you type. . . but if you are trying to bash on kids who constantly have grammatical problems in what they write. . . you have quite a few. :P