Build 15689

[Gorehowl]

They don't have to balance it. Just leave it as it is instead of removing it completely because of narrow-minded elitists like you considering it to be useless.
Did that make sense? Good. Stop bashing me and start thinking about the fact that you're playing a game.

i guess wanting the gameplay mechanics to not be balanced around if it looks good while rping in goldshire makes me an elitist.

[Deleted]

What about the benefits to meta that are no longer scaling from mastery ?

Are you playing a different game? Meta is still scaling from mastery. maybe you should read the mastery tooltip

[Xelnath]

That's just not true. DA isn't designed in a vacuum, things are excluded and work differently in and out of it in order to provide that balance.

All things for DA are done *after* the balance and flow for Meta is developed. I assure you.

[Jtree]

You guys are just making shit up. Nothing about demonology has been balanced based on Apotheosis.

All things for DA are done *after* the balance and flow for Meta is developed. I assure you.

I'm thinking the same.

At worst, DA will add a few more rounds of iteration on the spec. This is what beta is for. They've got a few more months to get all this sorted out, and haven't even turned players loose in a raid yet to see how it works in a properly challenging situation. We'll see where Demo is at that time.

If MoP goes live with a poor Demo design, or an OP/useless DA, hell-raising would be expected. It would be par for the course, as something always makes it live while still broken, but the outrage would be well justified. Until then, it's all about testing and feedback.

[Count Zero]

DA is an afterthought in the balance process. Does anyone seriously think Frost/Unholy dps is balanced around being able to go into blood presence ??

[Deleted]

DA is an afterthought in the balance process. Does anyone seriously think Frost/Unholy dps is balanced around being able to go into blood presence ??

I guess with "balancing DA" is mainly meant that it won´t get too much/less survivability. The dps of DA is already nerfed because of demonic slash "charges" and fury reset when leaving DA, so it loses demos main CD. I wouldn´t mind if they nerf the DA damage even more (like a generall -10% dmg while in DA) for buffing the dmg reduction a bit

[Deleted]

Things are looking better than before

[Jessicka]

DA is an afterthought in the balance process. Does anyone seriously think Frost/Unholy dps is balanced around being able to go into blood presence ??

Sure. Blood presence too powerful for DPS specs, nerf it, buff Improve Blood Presence. That's why those talents exists.

All things for DA are done *after* the balance and flow for Meta is developed. I assure you.

I don't doubt that for a second, and I expect that DA would be first for the nerfbat if it was causing problems - and that is why it can't make a true tank spec.

[Count Zero]

Sure. Blood presence too powerful for DPS specs, nerf it, buff Improve Blood Presence. That's why those talents exists.

Well, we're talking about two different things here. I was responding to the implication that Demo dps is itself being altered to suit DA. What you're saying is true, but it doesn't involve changes to Frost/UH dps -- it involves how effective they are when switching into blood presence. I wouldn't say the DK dps specs are balanced around blood presence, and I'd say if anything DA is balanced around Demo, not the other way around.

[Jessicka]

Well, we're talking about two different things here. I was responding to the implication that Demo dps is itself being altered to suit DA. What you're saying is true, but it doesn't involve changes to Frost/UH dps -- it involves how effective they are when switching into blood presence. I wouldn't say the DK dps specs are balanced around blood presence, and I'd say if anything DA is balanced around Demo, not the other way around.

I would presume so too, which is why it would be so difficult for DA to finish up as a viable tank. It would be wrong though to assume DPS isn't balanced around the 'full package' of a spec though, Frost Mages' DPS is notably lower than that of other specs precisely because of the control and utility the spec offers.

[Count Zero]

I would presume so too, which is why it would be so difficult for DA to finish up as a viable tank. It would be wrong though to assume DPS isn't balanced around the 'full package' of a spec though, Frost Mages' DPS is notably lower than that of other specs precisely because of the control and utility the spec offers.

Even on live right now tho, Frost does more (single target) than Balance or SMF Warriors, and only slightly worse than Frost DKs. And in t12 Frost was crushing Fire (and Frost was competitive in early t11 and surpassed Fire towards the end). I dunno really how much control Balance/SMF offer in pvp, but I can't imagine it's more than Frost mages.

I get that the "full package" is taken into consideration, but I'd say that's a far cry from being "balanced around". If that was the case, I'd expect Frost to be doing the least dps and, well, I dunno who has the least utility, but I doubt it's Arcane/Fire mages, who are doing the most dps.

[Jessicka]

Even on live right now tho, Frost does more (single target) than Balance or SMF Warriors, and only slightly worse than Frost DKs. And in t12 Frost was crushing Fire (and Frost was competitive in early t11 and surpassed Fire towards the end). I dunno really how much control Balance/SMF offer in pvp, but I can't imagine it's more than Frost mages.

I get that the "full package" is taken into consideration, but I'd say that's a far cry from being "balanced around". If that was the case, I'd expect Frost to be doing the least dps and, well, I dunno who has the least utility, but I doubt it's Arcane/Fire mages, who are doing the most dps.

While it may not apply when looking across all specs on the board, it certainly does apply to specs within a class. GC even stated this was intended, as otherwise there would be no reason to use any spec other than the likes of Frost or Beast Mastery.

[Count Zero]

But is that really the case, as a whole ? Does Destro really have more utility than Afflic and Demo, Fire more than Arcane, Enhance more than Elemental, Survival more than Marksman, Assassination more than Combat and Subtlety, Balance more than Feral, Fury more than Arms ? Earnest question, I am not really familiar with how these specs stack up against one another with regard to utility.

And it looks like their direction for Mists will be to cut down on some of the spec variation in utility, what with streamlining CC availability and making some previously spec-exclusive abilities into talents.

[Jessicka]

But is that really the case, as a whole ? Does Destro really have more utility than Afflic and Demo, Fire more than Arcane, Enhance more than Elemental, Survival more than Marksman, Assassination more than Combat and Subtlety, Balance more than Feral, Fury more than Arms ? Earnest question, I am not really familiar with how these specs stack up against one another with regard to utility.

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure for other classes, but in most of those cases there isn't a huge disparity in output between specs unless there's a marked disparity in utility; particularly where roles are the same (melee or ranged). Destruction though, does have Shadowfury and Nether Ward going for it in terms of active utility as a raiding spec, whereas Demo and Affliction offer passive buffs in the form of Jinx/Demonic Pact so I can see why Destro might be slightly behind.

And it looks like their direction for Mists will be to cut down on some of the spec variation in utility, what with streamlining CC availability and making some previously spec-exclusive abilities into talents.

This is one of the big reasons for the new trees of course, and the cut back in active utility (mostly CC) across classes in order to remove this problem and allow closer DPS between similar specs of one class.

[Inactivity]

Honestly, I'm not 100% sure for other classes, but in most of those cases there isn't a huge disparity in output between specs unless there's a marked disparity in utility; particularly where roles are the same (melee or ranged). Destruction though, does have Shadowfury and Nether Ward going for it in terms of active utility as a raiding spec, whereas Demo and Affliction offer passive buffs in the form of Jinx/Demonic Pact so I can see why Destro might be slightly behind.


This is one of the big reasons for the new trees of course, and the cut back in active utility (mostly CC) across classes in order to remove this problem and allow closer DPS between similar specs of one class.

1) The new trees and the way things are balanced (completely different abilities in each tree) make balancing DA viable despite your "concerns." Since DA is only usable in one tree and modifies the talents in said tree, you don't have to worry about DA's Demonic Slash "doing too much damage" when used as Affliction, Destruction, or non-DA Demonology, since (DOH!) it's not usable in said specs. Same goes with mastery - notice that mastery increases damage done in caster form and meta form - not in DA form. This allows for demonology-unique (demonology mastery does NOT affect affliction/destruction) balance in that regard as well.

2) There's no "utility/damage" balance at all, the reason specs did more damage is either knee-jerk reaction to previous imbalance, or a pathetic attempt to balance PvP and PvE.

Arms, for instance, has much more control/utility and is pretty much the "warrior PvP spec" now - guess which one is used in PvE too?

Hunters were just bad across the board in T13 until survival got buffed. MM was the most common PvP spec (second is BM), and was top DPS in T12 also.

Discipline is mostly "the" PvP healing spec for priests, yet Holy and Disc are still balanced and Disc is still competitive in PvE. The reason Holy is uncompetitive, as GC even mentioned, was not "balance with PvE" but rather bungled design (DOH!)

Enhancement and Elemental are just bungled across the board, and I can't even tell how they are supposed to be balanced for PvP and PvE (elemental is now better in PvP, but both are not great in PvE - DOH!)

So really, trying to quote design intent for Live for any sort of "reasoning" whatsoever is just pathetic.

3) Demonology is the most desired raiding spec in T13. It's 10% spellpower, shared only by elemental shamans, is far more desirable than Nether Prot (only VERY niche and mostly unnecessary uses) or Shadowfury (not usable on any fight except Blackhorn/Spine).

[Jessicka]

You're arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me. It's right here:

Ghostcrawler: Part of why we are changing talents in 5.0 is to let every spec have a shot at getting good utility. This means we can abandon the current (and tired) model where some specs (Frost, Subtlety especially) have to trade off dps because they have good control / survivability / escape. The biggest difference between Frost, Fire and Arcane in 5.0 will be which spells (including procs and other mechanics) you use to do damage.

It's intended design philosophy. But, like the intended design philosophy of the old Hybrid Tax, it doesn't always play out as intended; that doesn't mean it the notion towards it isn't, or wasn't there.

[Inactivity]

They have to trade off DPS to balance against PvP, mainly.

But obviously, some specs just get the short end of the stick (Fury), which is OK because after all, classes only really need one PvP-viable dps (or healing, for priests) spec.

[Gohzerlock]

Things are looking better than before

No..... no they are not.

[Jessicka]

They have to trade off DPS to balance against PvP, mainly.

But obviously, some specs just get the short end of the stick (Fury), which is OK because after all, classes only really need one PvP-viable dps (or healing, for priests) spec.

Do you really think having a stance that offers improved survivability wont have an impact on PvP?
If they're moving away from a model that trades off DPS for utility/survivability, do you think that added survivability can be as strong as a true tank's?

It's not designed in a vacuum, and it's abundantly clear that DPS is not going to have to give in order to allow for this.

[Inactivity]

Do you really think having a stance that offers improved survivability wont have an impact on PvP?

All classes seem to have some sort of "improved survivability stance" except the warlock in live. Case in point: Cloak/Combat Readiness, Shield Wall, Frost Armor/Mage Armor (which can be swapped). Seems like as a class, until we even get a stance we're already at the shit end of things... oh wait, duh, 1v1 we're pretty much cannon food.

But I guess that's where you like to be... oh wait, your toon doesn't PvP... I wonder why.

If they're moving away from a model that trades off DPS for utility/survivability, do you think that added survivability can be as strong as a true tank's?

You can talk about vacuums so much that you can clean all 11 specs, but at the end of the day, even for PvP, there's nothing wrong with swapping out damage for suvivability on-demand. If anything, it makes PvP better, albeit harder. Obviously, even a frost DK in blood presence isn't going to have as much survivability as a blood DK in blood presence, and that's accounted for via blood-only talents.

Similarly, mastery will lower damage down in DA form, out of caster/meta form. But I guess that part's escaped a "vacuum" in your brain...