Blizzard All Stars

[Kathranis]

Looking forward to it. Honestly, I think the thing I like best about it is the little touches in the art design that make it seem like the characters are all in the same world. Like the orc Blademaster wearing protoss armor, and the Witchdoctor carrying a shrunken troll head.

[Lysah]

This is what Blizzard are known for in design; streamline.

And what do people spend the majority of their time complaining about with WoW? The easier something is to get into, the easier it is to master, in general, and the sooner you'll get bored of it.

I realize this doesn't really take away from a game like blizzdota, but from what I'm hearing from them, and from what you're saying, I see a game that will likely be played once or twice for the "oh, that's nice" value and then completely dropped, like a bad date.

The fact remains that LoL and even HoN and now very likely blizzard allstars have less to offer, and so are simply not worth playing, as you're only getting part of the total MOBA experience. When you take out entire aspects of gameplay, you have a lighter game. Some people might find this acceptable, not everyone wants the whole experience. But to pretend that these games are remotely comparable to DotA in competitiveness is exactly why we get into these arguments. People try to say that LoL is both easy but also somehow masterful, that DotA is both hard but also shallow and stupid, and that as a result blizzard allstars must be the next big thing because blizzard is such a great company. I just can't agree.

[Fencers]

And what do people spend the majority of their time complaining about with WoW?

They may complain but that doesn't mean WOW is sloppily designed.

I realize this doesn't really take away from a game like blizzdota, but from what I'm hearing from them, and from what you're saying, I see a game that will likely be played once or twice for the "oh, that's nice" value and then completely dropped, like a bad date.

As above, I don't see why this could be an issue. Depending on the business model it might not matter at all to them to keep you invested for years.

The fact remains that LoL and even HoN and now very likely blizzard allstars have less to offer, and so are simply not worth playing, as you're only getting part of the total MOBA experience. When you take out entire aspects of gameplay, you have a lighter game. Some people might find this acceptable, not everyone wants the whole experience. But to pretend that these games are remotely comparable to DotA in competitiveness is exactly why we get into these arguments. People try to say that LoL is both easy but also somehow masterful, that DotA is both hard but also shallow and stupid, and that as a result blizzard allstars must be the next big thing because blizzard is such a great company. I just can't agree.

I am not sure why you keep framing this as a matter of superiority or enjoyment and bizarrely, competitiveness. Those are qualities irrelevant to the compactness [lack of] of game design.

DOTA2 is a good game. This is, I remind you again, not in question by me. However, DOTA2 is anything but compact in it's design. For example, simply buying items is series of menus & sub-menus and contingencies. Flatly, objectively. That is the opposite of tight design. A legacy artifact of what the genre sprung from- present in LOL and HON as much as in DOTA1/2. It happens to be the genre, and DOTA especially, are littered with artifacts of what birthed MOBAs and what was historically fan/mod forwarded amateur design.

Was Icefrog the equal of Brian Fargo tweaking a WC3 map? Come now.

[moguri]

The fact remains that LoL and even HoN and now very likely blizzard allstars have less to offer, and so are simply not worth playing, as you're only getting part of the total MOBA experience.

You can say this over and over again until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that just because you think it isn't worth playing that the majority agrees with you. Out of the three (HoN, LoL and DOTA1/2) LoL is the easiest, less skill based and most casual. Let's agree on that. However it is by and large the most popular (HoN is dead). So just because you think BAS will be less skill based, casual, boring, etc... doesn't mean it won't be a huge success. Tons of people play LoL for years now and it just keeps getting more and more players. So I definitely think there is a market for this if they do it right.

[Fencers]

Think time will bear out DOTA as a niche to the broad appeal of LOL [& possibly Blizz Allstars]. Honestly, I don't see the average LOL player, now a significant audience of the genre, taking easily or en masse to DOTA's complexity & depth of game.

Everquest 2 was in many ways the deeper & more challenging game than World of Warcraft at their respective launches. Only one of the two rose to dominate the market in an absolute sense. There is quite a lot to be said for ease of entry. Again, kind of Blizzard's thing.

Speculation: DOTA will remain the top shelf MOBA for discriminating players. LOL/Blizz Allstars more populist.

[Santti]

Sounds great! I really wish people won't be as angry as they were in the original Dota with these changes, which got very tiresome after a while. Even if people will still be bitching, I think it will still be better than Dota (which was also great).

[Misunderstood]

I just feel like ranged or siege heroes will dominate melee because of the emphasis on lanes. An aoe champ pushes your tower several times? No ammo, no protection, loss of tower and map control while other team gets money. Get harassed in lane too much because you are melee and can't walk to pick up cloaks? Same thing. And after towers are pushed down there are more objectives to passively push with the merc camps. In LoL for example sometimes it is very disadvantageous to push down towers early because the other team freezes a lane and farms up nicely but depending on the emphasis on jungling, you could just push towers early, farm jungle and push w/ merc camps while pressuring/ganking other lanes. So you snowball out of control and gg, first tower decides the game.

[Lysah]

Those are qualities irrelevant to the compactness [lack of] of game design.

Of course they aren't. The game has been created around the community, which is an opposite direction from games like LoL. The menus aren't bloated because of design flaws, they're the way they are because they want dota1 players to have an easy transition. I knew exactly where every item was thirty seconds into my first DotA2 game. You seem to be arguing that this is clunky, while I am arguing that it is intentional and even artistic - Valve is GREATLY improving on a game without fundamentally changing it at all.

Now if they'd just make it so rocket flare stops creep spawns again we can all be happy.

@Rest
LoL has a unique business model that compels people to continue to play regardless of how much fun they're having. They threw the MMORPG carrot on a stick into the MOBA genre and give you something to work toward at all times, no matter how much you play. Even if you spend a thousand USD on RP and buy everything they still release new champions regularly.

Is it possible Blizzard does this? Of course, but I doubt it, honestly. They've never been the company to usher out new content on a fast-paced basis, they've told us for two entire expansions of four years that they know they release WoW content too slowly, and what do they do? Continue to release it slowly. If this behavior continues into the extremely ADD community that creates the MOBA genre I expect blizzdota to fail. Will a ton of people still play it because it's a Blizzard game? Of course, most of them will also stop playing it after a few months.

Go look at SC2 as a great example of where Blizzdota is likely to go, in my opinion (as far as casual play goes).

[PizzaSHARK]

I should just tack this onto the Examples list for "Unwarranted Self-importance".

You should probably figure out how to attack someone's argument and not the person themselves. If you aren't able to do that, you probably shouldn't post, because you aren't contributing anything of value.

[Sistine]

IMO last hits and denies are what makes DOTA2 for me. I honestly think there should be xp penalties for any mobs killed by your tower, and that denies should result in MUCH LESS (if not 0) XP. Early game is so simplistic, last hits and denies (MOST IMPORTANTLY DENIES) are what makes the first 1/3rd of each game and set players apart based on skill (attack animations vary with heroes, as do attack times and ranged projectile speed)

[Atomisk]

They're basically taking everything out of DOTA that makes DOTA an interesting and fun game, without adding a new and fun gamemode (Dominion) like LoL did.

It's gonna be pretty crappy, but as long as it's free...

They're basically taking everything out of DOTA and LoL that make them shitty games, and doing what the most talented game developers in the world do.

[Sistine]

They're basically taking everything out of DOTA and LoL that make them shitty games, and doing what the most talented game developers in the world do.

Please, do continue. What is "shitty" from DOTA and LoL that they are taking out, and what are the "most talented game developers in the world" doing? Should be noted that ICEFROG is working on DOTA2 with Valve, kind of funny that Blizzard DOTA references his original mod in its title, why isnt he in Irvine?

Im honestly interested in your opinion about what they are doing to improve, and whats bad about the other 2. Also, I think youre pontificating

Just to add some gas to the fire... DOTA2 > HoN > LoL > Blizz DOTA

EDIT: Just realized 2 days ago they changed the name to Blizz All Stars... cant even secure a name for the product, yet they are going to rip off original material from original developers and rehash it with less heroes (only 12, thats a joke) and items. Still fail to see how this is better

[PizzaSHARK]

They're basically taking everything out of DOTA and LoL that make them shitty games, and doing what the most talented game developers in the world do.

I thought we were talking about Blizzard, not Valve. When'd we start talking about Valve?

[AFK-Champion]

When was the last time that Valve released any good game by just using their own ideas? Half-Life 1? Possibly, but that's so 90s to ever consider them as lead.
On other hand Blizzard looks pretty weak - unable to push WoW any further, their own games full of botters and private servers they can't just take down and on top of it they can't even secure their own name.

This games looks quite unappealing to be honest. There is no problem with sharing kills and stuff, it's kinda fair, but making those brainless lane-pushing minions even more important doesn't sound fun, unless you're the huntar type enjoying AI doing your job.

[athanasios]

Hey, to avoid making a new thread i'll just pose the question here: On the frontpage i noticed the article about the "DotA" name disagreement. I also noticed RIOT Games was mentioned in the article, at the end.

What do they have to do with the DotA-name disagreement?

[Gnowo]

It still looks promising

[N-7]

Hey, to avoid making a new thread i'll just pose the question here: On the frontpage i noticed the article about the "DotA" name disagreement. I also noticed RIOT Games was mentioned in the article, at the end.

What do they have to do with the DotA-name disagreement?

I am no expert but I believe that Valve wanted to copyright the name "Dota" (because they have icefrog) so Blizzard sued them (because the game was created my WCIII Map creator and thus is Blizzard property according to their EULA) and then RIOT (owner is the original Dota mod creator) wanted to make sure that the "Dota" is considered as genre so he sued Valve/Blizzard or something.

[athanasios]

I am no expert but I believe that Valve wanted to copyright the name "Dota" (because they have icefrog) so Blizzard sued them (because the game was created my WCIII Map creator and thus is Blizzard property according to their EULA) and then RIOT (owner is the original Dota mod creator) wanted to make sure that the "Dota" is considered as genre so he sued Valve/Blizzard or something.

Oh... yea, that would make sense. Thanks.

[Sistine]

When was the last time that Valve released any good game by just using their own ideas? .

Uh, you realize that the majority of what Valve does is grab indie developers who are making games and provide the utilities/tools to make a more refined polished product right? DOTA2 is in no way VALVE's original concept, and considering ICEFROG (creator of the original DOTA) is a developer for DOTA2, I think VALVE is more original that Blizz ALLSTARS, LOL, and HoN could possibly be.

On a side note, if you dont like the idea of pushing/lane phase in a game then MOBAs probably arent for you

[Ausr]

Please, do continue. What is "shitty" from DOTA and LoL that they are taking out, and what are the "most talented game developers in the world" doing? Should be noted that ICEFROG is working on DOTA2 with Valve, kind of funny that Blizzard DOTA references his original mod in its title, why isnt he in Irvine?

Im honestly interested in your opinion about what they are doing to improve, and whats bad about the other 2. Also, I think youre pontificating

Just to add some gas to the fire... DOTA2 > HoN > LoL > Blizz DOTA

EDIT: Just realized 2 days ago they changed the name to Blizz All Stars... cant even secure a name for the product, yet they are going to rip off original material from original developers and rehash it with less heroes (only 12, thats a joke) and items. Still fail to see how this is better

I'm curious as to what you would name Blizzard All Stars, considering the characters are all stars and of the Blizzard variety. Kinda makes sense.