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  1. #1

    Helping others in an MMORPG

    So I recently started Aion (Elyos-Kahrun) to while away the awkward time between pre-orders and, as typical of me, I rolled a tank archetype. Everything felt pretty standard and I was enjoying the graphics, blahblahblah... until I encountered a player engaged in battle.

    During the GW2 BWE, I didn't think twice before jumping in and help take down the enemy. We'd brofist across the internet and carry on our separate ways.

    In Aion, and my past MMORPGs, I would either a) request the encumbered player to join a party, b) jump in anyway and risk a kill-steal report (or similar) or c) walk on by. More often than not the battle would have been over by the time I make my decision or my party request goes through, or on occasions when I decide on option (b), the other player would voice his/her displeasure or just walk away and leave me to die instead.

    How in the world have we put up with this for so long? I just don't get why so many MMORPGs spent all that effort to prevent people from helping each other, even in settings without multiple opposing factions. In WoW, helping somebody take down a (grey) mob while not in the same party got you absolutely nothing; in Aion you'd get some EXP but no loot; in Ragnarok Online the person dealing the final blow got the EXP, but the loot goes to whoever got to it first. GW2 and Diablo 3 are my first experiences with instanced or personal loot, which naturally created a system where you're actually rewarded in-game for helping others.

    "It's a such a great sign of the community when people walk by while you're getting owned by two Tursin."
    That's a paraphrase of a random player on the Aion /LFG channel over the weekend. I smiled and muttered, "This isn't Guild Wars 2."

  2. #2
    I'll occasionally lend someone a helping hand. But if its a friend I'll just sit back and watch em die and get yelled at over mumble.

  3. #3
    It's really something that has been overlooked in one of the features for the game. Well maybe not overlooked but something in which I think more emphasis should have been put on it from the articles and impressions that have been on the forums since the BWE.

    On The Same Team

    a short little blog about this very subject

  4. #4
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    We've put up with it for so long simply because we're used to it. All these years, we've thought it to be normal and unavoidable. Now, though... we've seen the truth of it. We've seen that you can design a game with cooperation in mind, from the ground up.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  5. #5
    Nice article Doozerjun. As been said, we put up with it so long, we've gotten used to something bad. With GW2 though, I don't think I'd want to go back to the old ways ever again.
    To mention something that was in your blog:
    one player reported getting a gold medal for four simultaneous events by contributing minimally in each, while another spent more time rezzing than killing and was minimally rewarded.
    I hope they'll work on that. Beta is Beta, but we can never be sure if this is something they take seriously enough to change or not. We'll see when the game comes out.


    Guild Leader of Imperium in GW 2

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    For me personally, it doesn't change much. I've always helped people I've come across. From a simple Stamina buff while running around to healing the player who's getting pounded by seven Murlocks. It's cool that you get rewarded for not being a dick, though.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  7. #7
    Just to be clear, I'm not the author of that blog. I just liked the article and it is very relevant to this thread.

  8. #8
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surea View Post
    I hope they'll work on that. Beta is Beta, but we can never be sure if this is something they take seriously enough to change or not. We'll see when the game comes out.
    They have a lot of work to do on the participation requirements. I noted sometimes that I'd work my ass off and only get a silver, while other times all I would do is put on my Shortbow and spam Cluster Bomb and get a gold. There were times that I'd just shown up to an event, had time to do one thing, and gotten a gold medal, and I'd heard about people standing on a rooftop and managing to scale an event to be really hard without actually giving help.

    So while most people still seemed to be cooperative, there's still plenty of room for trolling to take place, and plenty of people aren't getting fairly rewarded for their hard work. ANet needs to improve on this or else the community lashback will be rather strong.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  9. #9
    I'm pretty sure that they are working on it. It can never be perfect but I'm confident they will have it in reasonable shape come release.

  10. #10
    I actually really enjoy helping people in game when they are fighting out in the world. Although, I don't usually say anything to them. Just wait for them to tag a mob, then I taunt/tank it. Or I might fire off an arrow or heal as I see fit.

    That said, I despise "PUGing" and really am kind of mean spirited. Don't ask about game mechanics because a month or so into a game's life. I do expect people to know how to raid, buff, heal, tank and DPS properly per strat w/o an explanation as well.

    Pretty snobby, tbh. But out in the world? I enjoy drive by tanking.

    Edit: I play a Tank in Aion currently. I drive by tank. ;p
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-05-14 at 07:07 AM.

  11. #11
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    That said, I despise "PUGing" and really am kind of mean spirited. Don't ask about game mechanics because a month or so into a game's life. I do expect people to know how to raid, buff, heal, tank and DPS properly per strat w/o an explanation as well.
    When I bothered to pug, I usually just kept my mouth shut and did my job. People are too stubborn/stupid on the internet for opening my mouth (figuratively speaking) to be worth my time when my goal is simply to down the content. If a group was unable to do the content, then I'd just leave. *shrugs*
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-05-14 at 08:00 AM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  12. #12
    Dreadlord Iryne's Avatar
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    I also have noticed this really clearly after GW2 BWE.

    I have been playing Tera, and that game really does not support helping:
    - You need to do 51% of dmg to get credit -> you can fail other peoples quests and force them to wait respawn
    - If you jump in to help mob can reset its health -> really annoying bug. If I need some mob for quest it is safer to go on low population channel and hope that no-one else plays there (tera has channel system similar to GW1)

    Yesterday I saw my first world boss (or BAM= big ass monster, as tera calls them). There was tank and healer killing it. I, as pure dps, joined into fight when it had still 70% HP left. I was not invited to group and when it died I didn't get any reward. I literally stood there a moment, looking at the loot on the ground and waiting chest or something to come up... but there was nothing for me. At that point I wished it would have been dynamic event style or even multitag. Epic fight, no reward.

    Also questing feels so awkward after dynamic events... run between two npc's that stand 10y away each other. Or run between camps to "deliver messages"… really fun. >_>

  13. #13
    In other MMO's I'd usualy observe for a moment and see if the person needed help. If they looked like they were fine I'd leave them to their fight. If it looked either close or that they were going to loose I'd jump in and help tank/heal/dps depending on what I was playing at the time. got a mix of reactions for my trouble, normaly gratitude but occasionally someone pissed at the interference and a few times I waited too long and the guy died anyway. I did enjoy being able to help out without haveing to ponder the concequences in the BWE. Well at least not ponder it anymore than how to do this without geting myself killed too.

    Still its a sign of what MMO's have become that GW2 is such a shock to us. I too have felt the anoyance of another player showing up and killing "My" quest mobs or stealing my gather node while I'm stuck in combat. Its sad but we've just learned to put up with it because thats just how things were. It really breathed some life into my enjoyment of this genre when I found myself happy to see other people and happy to help out without a second thought. The only times I didnt like seeing more people was when there were enough to tank my framerate but meh, beta is beta and some of the known bugs were worst case scenario to my current rig.

    On the subject of folks not geting awarded enough participation in events. There was a post on their forums about revives not always giveing credit as they should, it was being looked into with the intent to fix it. Lots of other scaleing and participation bugs were reported as well. Thats the point of the beta, have thousands of folks give every mechanic a good shake and see what falls out. Lots of the bugs I reported very well could be artifacts of far too many people in the area at once. Thats something thats hard to test in house no mater how big your QA department is. Several hundred devs and testers just cant stress a system like several thousand folks with no preconcieved notions of how something is soposed to work.

    Who is John Galt?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    When I bothered to pug, I usually just kept my mouth shut and did my job. People are too stubborn/stupid on the internet for opening my mouth (figuratively speaking) to be worth my time when my goal is simply to down the content. If a group was unable to do the content, then I'd just leave. *shrugs*
    Hehe. The last time I PUG'd anything was months ago to kill 1 boss on my alt, in an old raid for a mount. :3

    I would never PUG in any other circumstance. I don't even like LFG/D. Playing with randoms in a group/teamwork environment = no thanks. Don't even solo queue on my real LOL account. Screw that.

    While I do enjoy helping others, I don't enjoy helping in any situation where I expect them to not be awful.

    Guild or single player.

  15. #15
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Hehe. The last time I PUG'd anything was months ago to kill 1 boss on my alt, in an old raid for a mount. :3

    I would never PUG in any other circumstance. I don't even like LFG/D. Playing with randoms in a group/teamwork environment = no thanks. Don't even solo queue on my real LOL account. Screw that.

    While I do enjoy helping others, I don't enjoy helping in any situation where I expect them to not be awful.

    Guild or single player.
    Pugging is pretty much the only raiding I ever bothered to do on my druid and priest alts (tank and healer respectively). I never did get around to pugging with my Ret Pally, but my rule is pretty much that my main only runs with the guild, while I leave my alts to pug on their own.

    I'm probably just more tolerant/open-minded than you are. :P
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  16. #16
    And this is one of the big things in GW2. They are taking away almost all the needless competition between players, and only put it where its suppose to be (sPvP, WvW).
    The idea that helping someone else screws you or the person you attempt to help over is nonsense if you really think about it. Its an MMO, it is an inevitable event. It is a genre where the online community is at the very core, yet most things done to actually help a fellow community member is met with rage and disbelieve. Because somehow you managed to screw them over by just giving them a heal when they needed it.

    I could not play an MMO that works like that anymore. Im tired of it, im tired of looking upon my fellow gamer as someone worst then my enemy. Atleast my enemy i can slap around a bit till he stops being a dick. But not my "ally". Who will steal my mobs, ninja my resource nodes, snipe all the quest items while im clearing the pack around it and not show the common courtesy to wait 4sec before starting an escort quest. Let alone helping me when im in over my head, he gets nothing from it why would he bother?

    And in WoW, you can just feel the "community" in the Dungeonfinder. Ninjalooters skyrocketed the very day this system was implemented. And before i finally quit, i felt like doing that 5man dungeon was something id rather do alone, but sadly i had to take tweedle dee, tweedle doo, tweedle dum and noob with me. And im sure they felt the exact same way. Chat was minimal, was rare to see more then "you suck!" pop up in my chat box over the course of a run. But ofcourse we cannot just blame WoW, MMOs before WoW were just as bad if not worst. WoW just appealed to the masses enough that it brainwashed a generation of MMO gamers on large scale.

    How this will be reflected in GW2. Im curious, initial experience is not bad. Arenanet does have to tweak contribution from support more, i dont even think Rezzing someone counts at all.

  17. #17
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    To be honest, I think the problem harkens back to the public schools (as much as I hate to bring this topic up again). In at least the American public school system, students are discouraged from collaborating together on projects. There's even this concept of "cheating" as opposed to pooling together knowledge. So, in some ways, the whole problem of competing with your peers, rather than working with them, is likely deeply ingrained in our psyche. Not to mention the focus on the individual rather than the group.

    So I don't think it's fair to say that WoW "brainwashed" this into people.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Pugging is pretty much the only raiding I ever bothered to do on my druid and priest alts (tank and healer respectively). I never did get around to pugging with my Ret Pally, but my rule is pretty much that my main only runs with the guild, while I leave my alts to pug on their own.

    I'm probably just more tolerant/open-minded than you are. :P
    LOL probably. I can't do it. Once went into dungeon finder and after wiping on the first [faceroll] boss of a dungeon- I was like, "Yea, screw this. I chose to have nothing over this." Doing a real raid with PUGs would break my goddamn mind.

    I actually found it was better to level solo in GW2. Some of the DEs scaled way to chaotic to be sensible or efficient leveling. In Wayfarer Hills I created a circuit to run solo up to a group of 3 which we ran over & over repeating the same DEs. However, as soon as small group showed up it all went to hell. -_-

  19. #19
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    LOL probably. I can't do it. Once went into dungeon finder and after wiping on the first [faceroll] boss of a dungeon- I was like, "Yea, screw this. I chose to have nothing over this." Doing a real raid with PUGs would break my goddamn mind.

    I actually found it was better to level solo in GW2. Some of the DEs scaled way to chaotic to be sensible or efficient leveling. In Wayfarer Hills I created a circuit to run solo up to a group of 3 which we ran over & over repeating the same DEs. However, as soon as small group showed up it all went to hell. -_-
    as misanthropic as you are im surprised you hate pvp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  20. #20
    Did anyone of you noticed in the DEs where you need to gather stuff if the items are instanced or are we competing for the items? I got the impression that we were fighting each other, running for the same flower or ore (DE objective item not gathering node). It really needs to be changed.

    Except for that tiny little issue it felt wonderful to help and be helped by others (if only scaling would have worked properly - too much scaling and you just get jumped by overspawning mobs while there is a bunch of people somewhere or under scaling when skill challenges become trivial). This kind of sense of togetherness even after a single BWE makes it very hard for me to play any other MMO - " RUN! FASTER! there is somebody else doing this quest and we would have to wait X minutes for the mob to respawn" or "shoosh, go away,I am getting less xp because of you".

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