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  1. #1
    The Patient galimim's Avatar
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    Alternatives to capitalism?

    First off sorry for any spelling errors. For some of us English is a second language.

    To the main point. If we look around us it is becoming ever so obvious that capitalism of nowadays is severely flawed. A normal person strives towards some distant dream of wealth and privilege. We live, breath and sweat for the company that we work for. We do it for increasingly lower wages, for less and less social benefits (which shouldn't be named benefits because we pay for at least some part). We live, in what Slavoj Žižek described as dictatorship of capitalism.
    I think in the context of these experiments, how the crisis in Greece is now practiced by one experimental model, direct dictatorship of the international financial system, the radical decomposition of the country of prosperity and so on. Greece is one of the possible fates of us all. Not that racist nonsense "lazy people, who spent too much"
    Google translate from HERE
    Through the years that we have been living in somewhat modern civilisation we had many alternatives to capitalism.
    • Communism - A wonderful idea of equality for all with one big problem. It forgot to account for flaws of humans. The way we are greedy, the way we want something for ourselves and not just to have property of everyone, the way that we are lazy and will many times follow the path of least effort. Also the dictatorship and the police state are not very inviting.
    • Socialism - Less severe than communism in regards to personal property, it is based on worker's self-management(I am taking former Yugoslavian model as bases.) but this leads to the fact that companies are run by people who do not have education for it. The problem as well was that in search of 0% unemployment, people were given jobs that were not needed so they were just draining the company.
    To list just the ones that we have seen in recent past. Or they still exist in some parts of the world.

    So what is the alternative that focuses away from corporations and heartless system of "everything is allowed in search for that illusive few % more profit" and back to happiness of a person as individual and a system that wont' produce crises every 10 years in which our very essence of the way we live is threatened?
    Delu čast in oblast!
    Praise the work and give it power!

  2. #2
    I've said this multiple times before.

    If left alone, if not fucked with by the government, Capitalism is the most fair and honest system in existence.
    Last edited by Riidii; 2012-05-28 at 09:28 PM.

  3. #3
    I think you need a hybrid system that recognizes there are some things private enterprise does better, and other that government does better, and takes the good from each system while trying to limit the flaws. Capitalism can be very effective if well regulated, but in the past 30 years or so a new generation who had forgotten the abuses of the past are allowing regulations to slip away. Working harder for less too could be remedied by attaching minimum wage to GDP. We see in America a lot of wage stagnation in the last 30 years, meanwhile large corporations are growing in value and profits much faster then wages.

    As global population continues to surge, and production and service both continue to become more automated there might very well be a looming job gap, where we have much greater population globally then the need for workers to complete work. I'm not sure what the solution to that is, but under normal capitalistic principals, that will create a glut of labor and server to keep wages low, making it harder for the problem to solve itself by way of more single income couples or part time workers.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    I've said this multiple time before.

    If left alone, if not fucked with by the government, Capitalism is the most fair and honest system in existence.
    Pretty much this, capitalism is awesome because it allows large groups of people to interact with one another on a world wide scale.

    Other systems do work but usually on only very small scales where behaviors can be enforced on individuals.

  5. #5
    This discussion isn't going to go very far when you present everything as just "3 categories", there is such a dramatic difference between Communist, Socialist and even Capitalist ideologies within themselves that to lump them together is futile. Since Socialism can exist in all 4 spectrums at the same time depending on it's political ideals combined with it's economic ideals. A nation can be both Socialist and have Capitalistic freedoms as well; such as private ownership of companies as well as centralized public control of other entities.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    This discussion isn't going to go very far when you present everything as just "3 categories", there is such a dramatic difference between Communist, Socialist and even Capitalist ideologies within themselves that to lump them together is futile. Since Socialism can exist in all 4 spectrums at the same time depending on it's political ideals combined with it's economic ideals. A nation can be both Socialist and have Capitalistic freedoms as well; such as private ownership of companies as well as centralized public control of other entities.
    You are right socializm isn't really an alternative to capitalism when they can co-exist.

  7. #7
    Capitalism is the natural structure emerging from human interactions. It's the most efficient. You can try to "fight" it but you won't win against nature.

  8. #8
    The Patient galimim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    This discussion isn't going to go very far when you present everything as just "3 categories", there is such a dramatic difference between Communist, Socialist and even Capitalist ideologies within themselves that to lump them together is futile. Since Socialism can exist in all 4 spectrums at the same time depending on it's political ideals combined with it's economic ideals. A nation can be both Socialist and have Capitalistic freedoms as well; such as private ownership of companies as well as centralized public control of other entities.
    The point is not to chose from those 3. We tried all 3 and they all had good and bad parts. I think that the time is right for us as people to come up with something new. Like MaximusRex said that we need hybrids. We sort of have a hybrid, but is there a way to make it more efficient, less prone to trouble?
    Delu čast in oblast!
    Praise the work and give it power!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    I've said this multiple time before.

    If left alone, if not fucked with by the government, Capitalism is the most fair and honest system in existence.
    Pure capitalism is hardly "fair" or "honest." By design it promotes social inequality, economic/cultural/environmental exploitation, unemployment, uncontrolled wages, and the promotion of oligarchical ideals, plutocracy. Resting all the power with just a few people, in most cases "the rich."

    Truly, capitalism was "left alone,"from the late 90's until 2007...look how well that turned out.
    Last edited by Tradewind; 2012-05-14 at 03:59 PM.

  10. #10
    Capitalism in its current form is based on infinite growth. However, we have a system with finite resources. Something needs to give at some point.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Pure capitalism is hardly "fair" or "honest." By design it promotes social inequality, economic/cultural/environmental exploitation, unemployment, uncontrolled wages, and the promotion of oligarchical ideals. Resting all the power with just a few people.

    Truly, capitalism was "left alone,"from the late 90's until 2007...look how well that turned out.
    Actually, unemployment and uncontrolled wages are problems caused by each other. If you control wages you cause employment problems, and if you try to control employment it usually effects wages.

    Capitalism would work better if humans were actually rational too, thats why you say power would just be resting in just a few people's hands. Yes that does actually happen but shouldn't in theory, just like every economic theory doesn't work out as planed because people do not behave always like models would like to predict.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Authary View Post
    Capitalism is the natural structure emerging from human interactions. It's the most efficient. You can try to "fight" it but you won't win against nature.
    This. Even in communist economies, a black market with capitalist tendencies will emerge as a result of the short-comings of communism.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Keadin84 View Post
    Capitalism in its current form is based on infinite growth. However, we have a system with finite resources. Something needs to give at some point.
    Somebody hasn't looked at long term economic growth models. Increasing technologies can continue for infinite growth because the increases in technology change the curve and allow less resources to be used, even of nonrenewable resources.

  14. #14
    The Insane Catta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    I've said this multiple time before.

    If left alone, if not fucked with by the government, Capitalism is the most fair and honest system in existence.
    Yes, it must be the government that causes it to fuck up...


    Right...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Keadin84 View Post
    Capitalism in its current form is based on infinite growth. However, we have a system with finite resources. Something needs to give at some point.
    And where did you hear it? I often hear this same phrase from young kids who saw some environmentalist documentary.

    The truth, ofcourse, is the exact opposite. Capitalism is based on the allocation of finite resources between various people. Capitalism is a natural and good rationing mechanism for making sure that scarce resources are used in the most efficient possible way.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamdwelf View Post
    Actually, unemployment and uncontrolled wages are problems caused by each other. If you control wages you cause employment problems, and if you try to control employment it usually effects wages.
    Unemployment is unregulated in a Capitalist system because the Company's only goal is to be as profitable as possible. This profit comes at the expense of the working class. You compound the problem by hiring labor for peanuts...and they do it, because otherwise, nobody will hire them. It's a fundamental flaw with Capitalism in general. The corporate necessity to maximize profits by paying the bottom rung employees less, or hiring less of them, creates an issue where in that lower class is no longer able to purchase products to support the companies doing their hardest to fuck them over to begin with. It's only mitigated by selling that lower class high interest loans, remortgage their homes, jack up their rates beyond affordability, cut the labor market...then repossess all their shit and resell it to the wealthy.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Pure capitalism is hardly "fair" or "honest." By design it promotes social inequality, economic/cultural/environmental exploitation, unemployment, uncontrolled wages, and the promotion of oligarchical ideals, plutocracy. Resting all the power with just a few people, in most cases "the rich."

    Truly, capitalism was "left alone,"from the late 90's until 2007...look how well that turned out.
    The only limiting factor for personal wealth in a pure Capitalism economy is personal achievement.

    Because you can just ask the question, "What is stopping you?" and there is no answer.

    And how does Capitalism promote unemployment? That's hogwash.

  18. #18
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    The only limiting factor for personal wealth in a pure Capitalism economy is personal achievement.

    Because you can just ask the question, "What is stopping you?" and there is no answer.

    And how does Capitalism promote unemployment? That's hogwash.
    Ugh. So wrong on so many levels. Not everybody is a middle-class white man born in a safe neighborhood with a good school system and good parents.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Badpaladin View Post
    Ugh. So wrong on so many levels. Not everybody is a middle-class white man born in a safe neighborhood with a good school system and good parents.
    That's an insult to the people that have crawled out of poverty and into success.

  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Badpaladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    That's an insult to the people that have crawled out of poverty and into success.
    And you insulted everybody who couldn't due to reasons beyond their control.
    My Short Required Reading List: One. Two. || Last.fm

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