The reality about Greece and Europe.

[Kruncholyo]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here. None of what you said absolves greece of any responsibility, especially considering the relatively massive concessions they've had already.

This will make it all better: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/i...-2012051527146

[Grizzly Willy]

And you could talk about the quoted nationalist bigotry instead of taking his side.

I wasn't taking sides, just asking for a proper retort. Considering that you made some rather bold claims yourself as to the "enemies of the EU," I figured you would be able to come up with something a bit more substantial. Also, there are several other posts that ask why you think your post absolves Greece of any responsibility.

[Stir]

Actually, the corruption in (most) nations did exacerbate things quite dramatically.
Yes, we were all aware that Spain, Ireland and especially Greece were not in a very good position. However, the lies their politicians gave us (false accounting and promises) put our minds somewhat at ease, and, let's face it, we (the North-West) were doing pretty brilliantly... Good enough to stave off recession even if the accounting turned out false, and the promises were broken (which happened).
However, then we got this lovely new strategy in mortgages. You know; buy a place, pay only the mortgage interest rates. This was an import from the US, and it was a bad one. The reason was that this allowed more homes to be sold to more people; to widen the demographic of home-owners. The good part was: Building corporations could build lots and lots of houses. They would sell. They'd also build lots and lots of office buildings, which would NOT sell, increasing the price of their land, and, with that, the price of the houses. The bad part: Most of the new home-owners simply couldn't afford their new home. They had a loan under some sort of pretence of affordibility, but it was all just a construction.
The good bit for the banks who gave those loans is: People would pay interest for a while, finally go bankrupt, and the bank could sell that same loan to a new poor sod who wouldn't be able to afford it in the longer run.
However, the banks were giving out more loans than it should be able to handle. As people went bankrupt because of those loans, the entire economy collapsed. People would no longer pay for luxury, people would require psychological help, people were, simply put, no longer giving to the economy. Banks started shimmying money under the pretence of 'bonusses.' A bonus, in this light, could reach well over thrice the CEO's yearly salary (because of the salary-ceiling endorsed by the government). Banks were bleeding themselves dry, making a few people very, very wealthy in the process... But making a LOT of people a LOT poorer.
In this state, the North-West was no longer able to support the South.

And all this was made possible by lobbying and corruption.

[Bolson13]

Actually, the corruption in (most) nations did exacerbate things quite dramatically.
Yes, we were all aware that Spain, Ireland and especially Greece were not in a very good position. However, the lies their politicians gave us (false accounting and promises) put our minds somewhat at ease, and, let's face it, we (the North-West) were doing pretty brilliantly... Good enough to stave off recession even if the accounting turned out false, and the promises were broken (which happened).
However, then we got this lovely new strategy in mortgages. You know; buy a place, pay only the mortgage interest rates. This was an import from the US, and it was a bad one. The reason was that this allowed more homes to be sold to more people; to widen the demographic of home-owners. The good part was: Building corporations could build lots and lots of houses. They would sell. They'd also build lots and lots of office buildings, which would NOT sell, increasing the price of their land, and, with that, the price of the houses. The bad part: Most of the new home-owners simply couldn't afford their new home. They had a loan under some sort of pretence of affordibility, but it was all just a construction.
The good bit for the banks who gave those loans is: People would pay interest for a while, finally go bankrupt, and the bank could sell that same loan to a new poor sod who wouldn't be able to afford it in the longer run.
However, the banks were giving out more loans than it should be able to handle. As people went bankrupt because of those loans, the entire economy collapsed. People would no longer pay for luxury, people would require psychological help, people were, simply put, no longer giving to the economy. Banks started shimmying money under the pretence of 'bonusses.' A bonus, in this light, could reach well over thrice the CEO's yearly salary (because of the salary-ceiling endorsed by the government). Banks were bleeding themselves dry, making a few people very, very wealthy in the process... But making a LOT of people a LOT poorer.
In this state, the North-West was no longer able to support the South.

And all this was made possible by lobbying and corruption.

lol, please don't tell me your from the Netherlands because that sounds like a story that a Dutchman who watches the news half assed would get as a conclusion.

[Deleted]

These threads are always yawnworthy because it's either:
A greek trying to say none of it is their fault.
An angry european who hates Greece for everything and doesn't accept that their country had a part to play in it.

Get a grip and face reality. You all had a part to play. It's just like the housing crisis, the only question is how much blame do you assign to each group.

Greece is still partly to blame for their bad position because they quite simply had out of control public spending and had a tax evasion culture. Why should/would the north be expected to support Greece forever? That's a ridiculous idea. Anyone who thought that would last forever was deluding themselves.

[Deleted]

The banking mafia was loaning loads of money to Greece even when they had bad credit rating, bad credit rating = higher interest on bonds---> more profit. So they kept loaning them more and more money, collecting fat interest from the loans. Now the Greece went default and banking mafia demans the money back. Greece has none since its deep in debt. So they created this ESM and now whole Europe pays the debt of Greece to banks which knew that Greece wont be able to pay it off.
Also to mention, majority of Greek debt is caused by military spending, buying german tanks, submarines and french jets. But european tax payers are generous so they will pay the greek debt with happy face and banking mafia can lend to risky countries again. Banks profit, taxpayers lose.

[Deleted]

Official european statistics of several years before 2008, show counties like Sweden and Germany consistently stronger in economics.

Swedens GDP is around 500 billion which is about 15% that of Germany's. I assume you are Swedish.

Germany, France and the UK are the powerhouse economies of the EU, these 3 nations combined contributed to half the GDP of the entire EU and contribute the largest share to IMF and other monetary funds which are attempting to stabilize europe.

Greece's debt is the result of a corrupt government, poor planning and the massive development and spending around the time of the 2004 Olympics.
Greece's condition is the result of the forging of documents, the deliberate miscommunication between banks and governments and the overall goal of hiding the countries debt figures from EU inspectors and officials.

The individual people of Greece have done nothing wrong, it's past governments however... well... I'm suprised they haven't been executed.

[Brewski]

I wonder what will happen to Greece... there is basically no government, everyone is withdrawing all their money from the banks (its been like 800 billion euro's withdrawn)... For people to survive they have to barter. Will Greece pull through? Me having Greek blood, naturally I'd hope the country prevails ... and history proves it always does.

[Deleted]

I'd hope the country prevails ... and history proves it always does.

"This is SPARTAA!!!" Part of history. Only solution for Greeks is to leave the EU and stop using Euro currency which is plague, Im not happy that my country accepted it, it was treason.
And Greek people are not responsible for that debt so I see no reason why should they pay it.

[Deleted]

Actually Greece IS evil. They are in trouble and live off other countries, some of which having much lower standards of living than them. Yet it's the people rioting on the streets and being against reforms, not the politicians. Sure the reforms are bad for them but they protest against removing the 14th salary and other such things and are expecting others to pay for it.

If they had any decency, they would leave EU on their own till they can stabilize the situation or at least immediately remove all the unneeded expenses and vacations.

[Maharishi]

"This is SPARTAA!!!" Part of history. Only solution for Greeks is to leave the EU and stop using Euro currency which is plague, Im not happy that my country accepted it, it was treason.
And Greek people are not responsible for that debt so I see no reason why should they pay it.

I hope you realize that if that's done, no one would ever extend greece credit again, effectively isolating Greece economically. No food imports, no electronics. Considering the fact that Greece doesn't appear to actually be making anything, I'm not exactly sure how you think the country would deal with that.

[Deleted]

Germany is supporting the rest of Europe? If you think this you're either 16, deeply ignorant, brainwashed or all of the options.

Germany has been the driving force behind the policies that ruined the peripheral countries' economies. Want an example? Portugal lost a SHITTON of it's fishing and agriculture income due to heavy EU regulations that just ran lots of fishermen and farmers out of business plus tons upon tons of FOOD that had and has to be thrown out because they are too heavy or too big to meet the standards, and yes, you read that right, we throw out fruits and vegetables that are too BIG according to regulation. Now if you can't realize how important fishing is for ocean-bathed countries...

Now should we also discuss the Euro fiasco and how the EU's economic policies have been laid out to benefit Germany and France (mostly) while screwing over the smaller countries?

[Deleted]

I hope you realize that if that's done, no one would ever extend greece credit again, effectively isolating Greece economically. No food imports, no electronics. Considering the fact that Greece doesn't appear to actually be making anything, I'm not exactly sure how you think the country would deal with that.

Well they could just ignore all the debt and never pay it, setting them on "fresh start" with economy with 0 debt, start using their own currency and re-make the economy.

[Maharishi]

Well they could just ignore all the debt and never pay it, setting them on "fresh start" with economy with 0 debt, start using their own currency and re-make the economy.

If you were any other country/business, would you risk your own products on a country who just said their okay not paying their debts? It's like declaring bankruptcy, no one would ever do business with them again.

How would greece pull off this fresh start without being able to get goods from the world. They've had a pretty significant trade deficit for a long time, so they, apparently, can't produce everything they need. They might not even be able to feed themselves.

[zorkuus]

Actually Greece IS evil. They are in trouble and live off other countries, some of which having much lower standards of living than them. Yet it's the people rioting on the streets and being against reforms, not the politicians. Sure the reforms are bad for them but they protest against removing the 14th salary and other such things and are expecting others to pay for it.

If they had any decency, they would leave EU on their own till they can stabilize the situation or at least immediately remove all the unneeded expenses and vacations.

I have to agree with this. Everyone is blaming the politicians and bankers and whatnot but the general populace is to blame aswell. Many Greeks are used to much higher standards of living than the country's natural economy would supply. So now they're butthurt because they can't live of loans anymore. The politicians are atleast trying to rectify this blunder they have been involved in, but the people don't seem to want to give in a inch even if it's for their own good in the longrun.

[Maharishi]

There's a line between discussing the situation and just bashing. Be respectful when you post.

[Deleted]

If you were any other country/business, would you risk your own products on a country who just said their okay not paying their debts? It's like declaring bankruptcy, no one would ever do business with them again.

How would greece pull off this fresh start without being able to get goods from the world. They've had a pretty significant trade deficit for a long time, so they, apparently, can't produce everything they need. They might not even be able to feed themselves.

I guess they got some industry and agriculture, so they would produce what they can and trade with other countries. Trade can be done without transferring money. For ex. 1 flour for 1 oil. Also Greece is visited by milions of tourist each year who can bring money into the economy when they pay for stuff/services. However they would have to stop buying weapons/tanks/aircraft/ ships for their military or just disband the military as whole which would save them immense ammount of money.

Just for comparison: Greece: 11 milion ppl---- 100 000 army
Slovakia: 5.5 milion ppl --- 10 000 army
The Greek army is too big for their economy to sustain. Their debt is caused (mainly) by the army, army just consumes money and produces none. Anyway the Greece CANNOT repay their debt like ever with current economy and spending and why should ALL EU taxpayers repay it ???? Its fault of the banks that they loaned the money, they were doing risky bussiness and it was bad decision, so banks should carry the responsiblity for their decisions not the EU taxpayers....

If you were the bank would you loan me money when you know that I have no education, never worked and have very low income ??? Ofc you wouldnt, but the banks did, so let them carry the burden, its their fault not fault of EU taxpayers.

[Kendrel]

Basically, Germany is supporting most of Europe at the moment, while France thinks it's doing so but in reality isn't.
And everyone else is somewhere between breaking even and total dead weight. GG EU

Germanys actions may well be responsible for the state Europe is currently in. You can't enact MASSIVE cuts on countries without a solid basis for growth in place. The majority of Greeks are not guilty of the actions taken by their government or those that have been taking part in tax evasion, and yet they're the ones trying to scrape by on severely reduced wages if they haven't lost their jobs at all.

Cuts need to be made, economies need to be rebalanced, but Germany's medicinal action of endless amputations are not going to work in the long term, and are doing nothing but lasting damage to the Greek economy under the hope that Germany won't have to cough up any more. If I was living in Greece, damned right I'd protest - these aren't faceless masks, they're people trying to make a living.

It isn't just Greece either, the attitude to the Fiscal Pact is nothing but a way of enforcing German morality on the EU at large due to the issues they experienced, but only Germany seems to be getting anything out of it. The Euro is kept low by these issues and Germany is making a killing. Easy to dictate austerity when you're growing at a helluva rate.

The EU is broken, and they're (The EU at large) desperately trying to patch it together. But when it comes down to it it's a monetary policy without fiscal union, which means that all countries are automatically going to go into protectionist stances and doing what is best for them rather than what is best for the whole. Austerity without growth is a downward spiral that will just result in the EU imploding.

[Kendrel]

Actually Greece IS evil. They are in trouble and live off other countries, some of which having much lower standards of living than them. Yet it's the people rioting on the streets and being against reforms, not the politicians. Sure the reforms are bad for them but they protest against removing the 14th salary and other such things and are expecting others to pay for it.

If they had any decency, they would leave EU on their own till they can stabilize the situation or at least immediately remove all the unneeded expenses and vacations.

Wow, not sure where to start on this. 14 Years old?

If Greece leave the EU, I daresay it would be better for them than it would be for the rest of the EU (and it would be pretty catastrophic for both). Confidence in the sacrosanct rule that no country can leave the EU and renege on its debts would be lost and money will start being pulled out of the Eurozone and piled into safe havens. You think things are bad now? Wait for Greece to leave and watch the house of cards blow over.

[Maharishi]

If you were the bank would you loan me money when you know that I have no education, never worked and have very low income ??? Ofc you wouldnt, but the banks did, so let them carry the burden, its their fault not fault of EU taxpayers.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure why I should have any sympathy. Greece borrowed the money, they weren't forced to have a trade deficit for years. You list the reasons for the debt crisis fine, but, when it comes down to it, it was the Greek nation who was responsible for their own fortunes. Someone has to pay for the stuff they spent, and it should be them. The buck stops with them.

As for an international barter system? Do you realize how absurd that seems? Why would Dell ever let people buy computers for bushels of wheat. Tourism would die a fast death once they are cut off economically. Heck, I wouldn't really want to go there now on vacation.