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  1. #21
    ---------- Post added 2012-05-18 at 11:17 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogieknight View Post
    "Low level" is a key phrase there. Inquisition isn't low level and is only available at near end-game. Every other class has their entire gameplay to incorporate and learn their mechanic, we had 4 levels. Slice and Dice can be applied with as little as 1 combo point and give a decent duration with the glyph until the next refresh and is usually up in the first few seconds of the fight, same goes with Savage roar. They also don't require a full 5 combo points to refresh. Inquisition just flat out sucks at less than 3 holy power and is not worth applying or refreshing with less than that. Diseases can be applied with Outbreak, which you can use running into the fight and therefore not really waste a global, or rotational abilities such as howling blast or plague strike. Diseases can also be refreshed during your rotation with abilities that do damage upfront. Inquisition can only be applied in one way and it takes a long ramp-up for the resources to get it applied. Doubling the duration to 1 minute with what appears to be a 50% cut to the holy damage is in all honesty to me a complete nerf. Inquisition is really just an applied mechanic to prevent Ret from dealing more damage than they think we should. They already said after the Gurthalak ret nerf that ret damage was back where it was intended to be, middle to upper-bottom of the DPS list. Inquisition is just the equivalent of tying weights to Michael Phelps so he can't win a match in the special olympics. It's a throttle they can choke if we get out of control to them. They just have to adjust holy/censure damage on abilities and down we go.
    This x10000000000000

    I Vehemently despise Inquisition.

    I would be the first one to admit that we were mindless and OP in WOTLK, but yeah, Inquisition, and to an extend Holy Power, are both bad ideas. As long as Holy Power is in the game, we will probably never see any new attacks implemented for Ret Pallies. The mechanic is designed to build only 3 combo points before we can hit our finisher. This leaves very little room for a creative playstyle when compared to rogues and ferals who also use a combo point system. Rogues and Ferals have 5 combo points to reach and they have a bigger arsenal of spells and abilities to unleash on us in a short period of time. And that is why the system works for them and not for Pallies. Pallies can't do anything compared to Rogues or Ferals in that short period of time. We are given only 3 basic attacks, a finisher, and Inquisition that we need to keep hitting (on beta). Inquisition should be up at the start of a fight just as how it can be easily put up by Rogues and Ferals. Dk's can get their Diseases up in 2 Globals, and they refresh their diseases while also dealing damage with their attacks. This is fantastic compared to what Paladins are dealing with.

    One of the other reasons why Inquisition is bad is because we have no choice on how we want to spend our combo points when we want to deal damage. Dk's have other attacks they can use while their diseases are up. Rogues and Ferals have a crapload of utility+damage dealing spells all in one attack. Us Paladins have Inquisition > Templar's Verdict, and that's it. The fact that we can use WOG is irrelevant when it comes to damage and ramp up time. IMO Holy Power limits the Paladin class. And I understand every class has mechanics limiting what they can do, but Holy Power is the worst secondary resource I have ever had to use in the game, and I play a DK, a Feral, a Rogue, and a Warrior.

    Holy Power will never be removed as a mechanic because it would take too much work to find a replacement. But it definitly feels like it needs work, and it needs to be iterated on to allow more variety of spells and attacks that can Paladins can use instead of balancing it around the 3 attack spells that we've had for 90 levels. Give us some new attacks already!
    Last edited by cletis1234; 2012-05-18 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Grammar

  2. #22
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    @Boogie

    I was doing some fooling around with the glyph on beta, before the change and INQ gave me a +20% to holy damage with the glyph. Have not been back on to see if the tool tip now states 15% holy damage with the change. So its looking like it reduces the bonus of INQ by 50% and increases the duration by 100%......I think I see what they are trying to achieve.....doesn't change the fact I think the glyph sucks but the number crunchers will figure out by how much it sucks.

  3. #23
    I don't think people understand the intention behind this glyph.

    Having to refresh Inquisition less means you have more holy power to spend on Templar's Verdict. What it's meant to do is give you the option of making a tradeoff of less passive damage for more burst.

    Of course it's not perfect and obviously will go through further tweaks.

    12 second ramp up in Pvp to even think about going offensive, no other class has to do that. /end Rant, sorry.
    You can use Inquisition with 1 or 2 HP, just so you know..
    Last edited by Netherspark; 2012-05-18 at 04:17 PM.

  4. #24
    remember that the extra holy power you spend on keeping it up. you could spend it on other skills. so atleast it will play alot better with the 1m version.

  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire
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    @nether

    I don't think you understand the intention. We're voicing our opinion on why it shouldn't be in the game and how the glyph would be useless for only being able to use it for 9 levels.

    I love your condescending comment to me about using inquisition with 1 or 2 hp. Have you ever played the game before? In Pve refreshing with anything less than 3 or a Divine Purpose proc on a gcd locked class is a dps loss, albeit small it's still a loss. It's even dumber to refresh it with anything less than 3 in pvp even if you're using 2pc pve. I'll just assume you're another random without a clue who wanted to act smart and thats fine as theres always a bunch.

    Scenario 1 : Cool, I have 12 seconds of inquisition now I need to get another 3 to get to my cooldowns... Oh wait, I'm hexed/sheeped/cycloned and the guy that I can hit for holy power is half a map away.. Inq useless
    Scenairio 2 : I use inquisition on 1 holy power to get to inquisition and if I get no procs it still takes 2 CS's and 1 Judgement, or 3 cs's if you're in straight pvp gear to get somewhere to use that inquisition.
    ....Not to mention that ret's become more of an offhealer in pvp so I'm gonna throw a 20k heal on someone thats going to die seconds later, or use 3 holy power to heal him for 80k+
    Last edited by fears; 2012-05-18 at 04:45 PM.

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  6. #26
    Give us 'Vengeance' back.

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Liagala's Avatar
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    It's a great glyph for people who don't have the coordination to keep Inq up all the time. It will probably end up a dps increase for them, because right now they run with 50-70% uptime on Inq anyway. For those of us who have no problem keeping Inquisition up, it will be a no-brainer. Put a different glyph in and move on.

  8. #28
    Whoever made this change has no idea what the hell they're doing.

  9. #29
    Mechagnome Lufi's Avatar
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    Makes negative sense... In MoP the previous 10% Inq already had low value due to the fact that HP will come way more often then it is on Live, this nerf just...

  10. #30
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmilblick View Post
    Give us 'Vengeance' back.
    Let's stay on topic here, okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Whoever made this change has no idea what the hell they're doing.
    Yes, they do. It makes a great deal of sense, especially if you realize that all glyphs are not meant to be improvements to someone already playing at the upper echelons of Retribution game-play. This glyph is made for those who have trouble with Inquisition (regardless of what anybody thinks of a player having that issue).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lufi View Post
    Makes negative sense... In MoP the previous 10% Inq already had low value due to the fact that HP will come way more often then it is on Live, this nerf just...
    It's not a nerf, because it's a glyph. You're not required to have it active. As for it making sense, see my reply to Reith.

  11. #31
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    First and foremost: Savage Roar (Feral), Slice and Dice (Rogues), Diseases (Death Knights). These are just the abilities I can come up with off the top of my head, from relatively low level play from each class. Every DPS spec has mechanics that they need to keep up in order to maintain proper DPS. Just because it doesn't do any damage itself (like S&D for Rogues, SR for Ferals) doesn't mean it's "bad" in any way.



    Secondly, this. This glyph is the equivalent of training wheels for Retribution. It's not meant for top-end (or even mid-level, really) players.

    Our rotation would be horrendously boring with Inquisition removed. At that point, it would be "press TV if Holy Power is greater than or equal to 3" (or DS if there's enough targets). Also, since we don't have a bunch of Holy Power abilities, we don't even need a Cut to the Chase mechanic, or any other auto-refresh ability for Inquisition.
    I don't hate Inquisition I don't even mind it at all, My complaint is let's take a look at all the Abilities you listed and their glyphs.

    1. Glyph of Savage Roar - Your Savage Roar ability grants an additional 5% bonus damage done.

    2. Glyph of Slice and Dice - Increases the duration of Slice and Dice by 6 sec.

    3. Glyph of Icy Touch - Your Frost Fever disease deals 20% additional damage.

    Now we have Inquisition

    4. Glyph of Inquisition Reduces the damage bonus of Inquisition by 15% but increases its duration by 100%.

    So we pay a 15% damage penalty and all other classes get a glyph that does more damage or increases duration at no cost...

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-18 at 06:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Yes, they do. It makes a great deal of sense, especially if you realize that all glyphs are not meant to be improvements to someone already playing at the upper echelons of Retribution game-play. This glyph is made for those who have trouble with Inquisition (regardless of what anybody thinks of a player having that issue).



    It's not a nerf, because it's a glyph. You're not required to have it active. As for it making sense, see my reply to Reith.
    It makes no sense, I'm sorry but you are wrong. Glyphs are generally meant to be an improvement, I can't find one Glyph that is setup for another class to do less damage. By your logic Glyph of Mirror Images would look like this.

    Glyph of Mirror Image
    Your Mirror Images cast Arcane Blast or Fireball instead of Frostbolt depending on your primary talent tree. All damage done by Images is reduced by 50%.
    Last edited by Requital; 2012-05-18 at 06:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  12. #32
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    So we pay a 15% damage penalty and all other classes get a glyph that does more damage or increases duration at no cost...
    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    It makes no sense, I'm sorry but you are wrong. Glyphs are generally meant to be an improvement, I can't find one Glyph that is setup for another class to do less damage.
    First off, no offense meant by snipping the quotes apart, just wanted to pull relevant data to my points.

    There have already been posts stating that the driving force behind the Inquisition glyph was to help those that had issues keeping the buff up. To these people, it will increase their damage by the sheer fact that they'll have 100% uptime (ostensibly) on the 15% buff, rather than sporadic uptime on the 30% buff.
    (source)

    Likewise, they've already stated that they want glyphs to move in a direction where their benefits are less apparent and more situational.
    (source)

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Lufi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    It's not a nerf, because it's a glyph. You're not required to have it active. As for it making sense, see my reply to Reith.
    It's a beta nerf oin a glyph not in the class as a whole.
    Last edited by Lufi; 2012-05-18 at 07:42 PM.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    First off, no offense meant by snipping the quotes apart, just wanted to pull relevant data to my points.

    There have already been posts stating that the driving force behind the Inquisition glyph was to help those that had issues keeping the buff up. To these people, it will increase their damage by the sheer fact that they'll have 100% uptime (ostensibly) on the 15% buff, rather than sporadic uptime on the 30% buff.
    (source)

    Likewise, they've already stated that they want glyphs to move in a direction where their benefits are less apparent and more situational.
    (source)
    Like I said no other class suffers a damage loss for convenience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  15. #35
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Like I said no other class suffers a damage loss for convenience.
    And all of those glyphs you mentioned are Prime glyphs in the current design paradigm for glyphs. The Inquisition glyph we're talking about now has the Mists design paradigm applied to it. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here.

  16. #36
    Dreadlord ipoststuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liagala View Post
    It's a great glyph for people who don't have the coordination to keep Inq up all the time. It will probably end up a dps increase for them, because right now they run with 50-70% uptime on Inq anyway. For those of us who have no problem keeping Inquisition up, it will be a no-brainer. Put a different glyph in and move on.
    Wrong. This glyph will never be a dps increase the way it is now.

    Let me math it for you

    Say i suck at keeping inq up. My up time is

    A) 10-50%. This glpyh will increase my uptime to 20-100% (probably not 100%). The uptime will be doubled while damage increased halfed. I gain no damage increase.

    B) 50-90%. This glyph will increase my uptime to 90-100%. The uptime did not even doubled while damage increase halfed. I lost dps.

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer Requital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    And all of those glyphs you mentioned are Prime glyphs in the current design paradigm for glyphs. The Inquisition glyph we're talking about now has the Mists design paradigm applied to it. You're trying to compare apples to oranges here.
    So you actually believe if this glyph was in the game now it wouldn't be a prime glyph?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    Can you imagine if someone insulted you in a thread, you reported it, and I told you "sorry, wrong thread to be butthurt"?

  18. #38
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    Like I said no other class suffers a damage loss for convenience.
    Glyph of Flame Shock - no initial damage, but increased uptime, same type of tradeoff as the Inquisition glyph
    Glyph of Recklessness - Reduced damage boost, increased uptime.
    Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon - Reduced damage but increased threat generation


    There's probably more, I by no means did a thorough search, but your claim that no other class makes these kinds of tradeoffs in glyphs is simply not true.

  19. #39
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requital View Post
    So you actually believe if this glyph was in the game now it wouldn't be a prime glyph?
    Of course it wouldn't be. Prime glyphs were stated to be a free and clear, hands down boost to the ability it applied to. That was the point of adding the prime tier to the glyph system in the first place. Then majors would be used for benefits that had a less obvious effect, with minors being quality of life or cosmetic changes.

    As it was stated in a blue-post (in both of the links I provided), they're removing primes, and for good reason. They're increasing the "situational" flavor of the major glyphs, and it would appear that minors are nearly all cosmetic effects in Mists.

  20. #40
    tbh I think this glyph will be viable while leveling, like more of you I'm in the beta and most of the times when doing quests I'm not using Inq at all, mobs die too fast to waste the holy power on, but when a mob dies and I still have some holy power left and already at full hp (so no eternal flame / WoG needed) using Inq might make sense and it might still be up for the next mob... It's not ideal, but I tried to find any use for the glyph.

    And for the ppl that were thinking of it being useful for pvp because you dont have to wait to have a nice amount of Inq time, keep in mind that more abilities than just CS give holy power now: exorcism -> judge -> cs -> full holy power
    Last edited by Lustobject; 2012-05-18 at 08:27 PM.

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