LFR Vote-to-kick Madness

[Sykol]

I don't get all the people complaining about him skipping stuff. Heroic dungeons are way harder than lfr and everybody knows it. Atm this is the order of difficulty in content: LFR > HoT Heroics > normal mode dungeons > old heroic dungeons > ZA/ZG > Normal mode ds > heroic ds
Something is not right here, there should be a learning curve not content getting easier every next step and then hitting a wall -.-

Get a raid full of the OP's stepson and then come back and tell me how hard LFR can be. It isn't about difficulty, it's a dps and stupid check. While just about everything is harder than LFR, if you get a group full of morons or trolls, or a bunch of people pulling incredibly bad dps, you will wipe harder than you ever have in your life. I once spent over an hour on Madness because we couldn't kick bad dps fast enough before one of them would ninja pull to avoid the VTK. And yes, it was the dps that was solely the problem. We got rid of most of them, cleared Deathwing like it was nothing, and got our loot. But we couldn't have done it with the players we had, and trust me when I say there were a lot of them.

[Deleted]

And while I understand wanting to be the white knight and coddle everyone, as evidenced by the slew of responses in here cheering on the OP and his stepson, that doesn't do any good for the new players doing poor dps in PVP blues and quest rewards that don't exactly suit their class but boost their iLVL, or the groups that get saddled with them.

All you do by encouraging this type of behavior is teach players that it's perfectly acceptable to just not put in the effort because someone else will do it for them. What happens when everyone else gets sick of this and does the same thing? 25 players pulling 8-12k and then calling for LFR nerfs because the content is too hard is not a future I look forward to. And it isn't an elitist attitude I carry, but simply common goddamn courtesy for the 4 or 9 or 24 other people I run with.

/agreed.
Also I can't really grasp how some people first of all feel so bad for these 2-15k dps'ers in because "how are they supposed to do more in their pvp blues, you can't expect them to be perfect in their ilvlboostpvplolgear", come on, really? They shouldn't be in there in AH'ed pvp gear in the first place. This is why PVP gear really shouldn't have itemlevel, since ilvl was introduced mostly to gate the dungeons and raids, which are PVE.

So we get these "noobs" that skip all the 5mans and just jump into LFR with 320ilvl, greens and pvp crap, and some boes in their bags, and we are supposed to feel bad for them getting kicked? Oh yes.

[CarbonCrash]

Isn't it kind of normal for the person who is not switching targets to be doing more dps than the people who are?

I've been 3rd in dps on the Madness LFR fight, and got kicked after a wipe because I wasn't paying attention, and I was about 6 seconds slower than everyone else to run back and kill a tentacle. Of course, once the train wreck started, it wouldn't stop until there's nothing left to move. I had insults tossed my way, pissy whispers calling me "fail" and "a bad" [both terms of which I abhor, due to the blatant and obvious misuse]. Some healer was paying attention a bit better than me, and called me out.

Obviously though, despite the fact I was pulling above 20k, my inability to focus for those brief 6 seconds was completely the downfall of the raid where multiple wipes had occurred. In no way am I saying I was in the right mind you; the point that I'm getting at is people in LFR will latch on to the first excuse they can, and blame the full share of the wipe on 1 or 2 people.

I don't go in and just auto attack. I'm spamming my combat rogue rotation as fast and as accurately as I can muster.. I suppose in my focus on trying to do it right, I did it wrong.

So OP, from one jilted rogue to another...Eff em'. If they are out for blood, the groups gonna spill someone's, no matter what. Whether the targeted person's actions truly were the downfall of the raid or not.

[Deleted]

Shrug it off. Getting upset about Video Games is just as sad as those that attempt to cause the drama.

Looking for Raid is riddled with terrible players, but there are also the good players. People find it much more attractive to exaggerate or even just state the obvious about bad players, but not make a sound about really positive events. I've raided the LFR system pretty much every week, just to help others in the system, and rarely have these issues.

[Sansnom]

The kid didn't say anything to anybody. He wasn't AFK. He was trying his ass off. He wasn't even close to being the cause of the only wipe the group suffered, but people needed someone to blame. You should have seen the baffled look on his face.. and mine. I did NOT think he deserved the kick, and was quite upset about it. And I'm usually very good about letting videogame drama roll off my back.

Welcome to the LFR. What you experienced is an unfortunate occurrence that happens all too regularly. Some people needs someone to blame when things fail and it is never their fault. Always someone else. As an example, I was in one where one healer was complaining about how bad the others where. How he topped the HPS, HPS not total healing, with inferior gear. He basically pops his cooldowns. The charts showed the CDs was over 50% of his heal.

Ignore them and move on.

[CarbonCrash]

What this guy said. Wasn't there a point, even this expansion where pvp gear was near Bis for hunters, due to the increased ilvl with more agility than pvp gear. I believe there was, and it resulted in pvp set bonuses to primary stats being nerfed.

Bunch of crap. Ran LFR on my hunter for the first time with a few pieces of blue BOE pvp stuff, a couple epic pvp pieces and some epics from 5-mans/points (and I'm using the strength bow from the Hour Of Twilight dungeon quest line). Wasn't top of the charts but did a lot better than several full-epic pve gear. Sometimes the upgrade just doesn't drop, and you need to stick with a sub-par piece of gear. Believe me, even the blue PVP gear is better than a green 308 quest reward. Yeah, it's got resilience, but it will have a hell of a lot more of your primary stat which should more than make up for it. Knowing the fights and knowing your class can count for a lot more than having the right gear but being completely clueless on what buttons to hit.


As far as removing bad dps for a good one being an option, in some cases, yes. When you have a wipe due to starting short a few players, and still manage to get to the last platform, there are other options to take first. Yeah, he might not have been performing all that well, but if the raid was full, those players would've made enough of a difference to get the kill, and then no one would really have cared. Simply waiting for the raid to fill would have been the smart thing to do. However, I think that someone pulled it early so they wouldn't risk getting kicked (since you can't kick in combat). That's happened to me several times.

[Deleted]

Thing is, you need to have bare minimum of dps to kill boss in every fight. No matter how hard or easy it is. We don't know how much he was pulling but doing 3k (let's take that as example) isn't enough.

[ShuttleXpC]

So my step-son dinged 85 on his rogue a few days ago. We were both pretty stoked because he's been watching me play and raid and all that fun stuff. We spent a few days gearing him up... finally got him to ilvl required to Q for LFR. Some pieces of PvP gear, but fully enchanted and gemmed. The kid is still learning how to play his toon, but he's cerebral as hell and really getting into the fine points (much faster than I did).

So we Q'd up for the first 4. We cleared it. No problems. Was he at the top of the DPS charts? No... but he was learning the fights and trying for some upgrades.

We Q'd for the last 4, finished through Spine with no issues...
Then a couple healers and dps leave the group. The tank pulls DW anyway. 2 healers and 2 dps short, we wipe on the final platform.

Certain people in the group see that my step-son's rogue is at the bottom of the recount meter... they call him "useless" in raid chat, and of course he is VTK'd shortly after.

The kid didn't say anything to anybody. He wasn't AFK. He was trying his ass off. He wasn't even close to being the cause of the only wipe the group suffered, but people needed someone to blame. You should have seen the baffled look on his face.. and mine. I did NOT think he deserved the kick, and was quite upset about it. And I'm usually very good about letting videogame drama roll off my back.

Isn't LFR made for noobs to get a look at some easymodes of Dragon Soul? Maybe get some gear upgrades to improve your dps? I would love to hear interested minds weigh in.

I'll tell you now, random LFR's are the last place you want to look for respectable and polite people (although there are many in there that are). They blame mistakes on low DPS, certain people not doing their jobs, etc. This is all based around the fact the loot is a mitigating point for people to get annoyed about. Someone loses a roll to an item they wanted? They will sometimes try and wipe the entire raid. I have seen this many times and it never ceases to amaze me how childish these people are. I'd say a good average on the age of people playing WoW is in the 18-24 range, yet we have people acting like they are 10 with a vendetta against someone that told them they had cooties and ran from them on the playground.

LFR is the absolute worst place to get any real gauge of the good people that do play this game. Stick with it and you'll figure that out soon enough. Either way, it sucks to hear about things like this when they happen.

[Deleted]

It isn't my fault you're not aware of the buffs provided by the Aspects. And yes, 25k on Madness is shit. But not for a newly dinged level 85 which is the point I was making.

Without taking tank DPS into account, Ultraxion requires approx 17k DPS from the DPS on raid finder. Add in tank DPS and normal DPS spread across the classes (some will do more, some less) and 15k DPS for a non DOT class is about right. Having said that Blizzard tuned these fights knowing damn well that every LFR run will have over-geared toons joining in. It stands to reason. Around 15k DPS for LFR is fine, assuming that on some fights you'd do more and on some fights perhaps slightly less.

To expect newly-dinged level 85s, probably with a sprinkling of PVP gear in order to make the ilvl requirements to queue, to be throwing out competitive DPS with someone who has ran LFR and normal modes multiple times (and probably some heroic kills also) is a bit silly, even you have to admit that.

Oh the irony, when people fail to understand really simple sarcasm. Cause clearly I'm farming 8/8 HM without knowing the basics of the encounter - does it sound plausible?

About newly dinged lvl 85's not being able to push 25k+. Obviously they're not, unless they buy all crafted items and BoE's available. But LFR isn't meant for newly dinged lvl 85's in Heirlooms quest greens/blues. It's meant for people with an equipped ilvl of 372. If you cheat with your ilvl and then comes crying to the forums about how the mean elitist bullies kicked you out, you should consider not cheating lol.

Oh and btw. It's not that I don't understand your point, I'm just saying it's a load of BS and a piss poor excuse to get carried.

[RandomGamer]

Whenever you wipe on LFR people start looking for scapegoats on their meters rather than looking objectively at the reason for the failure (AKA blaming low overall DPS instead of tunnel vision meter padding high overall DPS - low meter undergeared healers that are using their cooldowns vs heal snipers that don't give a crap about mechanics)

Most wipes on LFR madness are because people fail to switch targets or because some grief-er or overconfident ass starts the fight with 20 people.

My advice, ask him to grow a thicker skin. His next queue will most likely send him directly to madness, even if it doesn't he will more practice opportunities killing the other bosses again. Yeah getting kicked suck, there's always the consolation prize of knowing you are trying your best (but this is not one of those progressive elementary schools and you won't a participant's ribbon)

[Deleted]

Reading this thread has made me lose faith in humanity just a little. Do you people actually have a problem with people queuing to get into LFR using the PvP blues? It's Looking for Raid! It's incredibly easy! I always join on my fresh dinged 85s in PvP blues and a Valor item that I sell back to the vendor as soon as I've entered the queue. People die there due to messing up and not knowing the encounters properly, generally not from low DPS. And, being the elite, seasoned players that you are, why don't you all try giving people a helpful nudge in the right direction when they fuck up 'cause it's their first time, rather than just pointing blame at people. If you're so good, how about helping people out rather than just being a dick.

[Deleted]

Reading this thread has made me lose faith in humanity just a little. Do you people actually have a problem with people queuing to get into LFR using the PvP blues? It's Looking for Raid! It's incredibly easy! I always join on my fresh dinged 85s in PvP blues and a Valor item that I sell back to the vendor as soon as I've entered the queue. People die there due to messing up and not knowing the encounters properly, generally not from low DPS. And, being the elite, seasoned players that you are, why don't you all try giving people a helpful nudge in the right direction when they fuck up 'cause it's their first time, rather than just pointing blame at people. If you're so good, how about helping people out rather than just being a dick.

First of all, a LFR full of people like yourself, who cheated your way in with shit gear - well good luck with that. Today when getting the last VP on a healer alt, we almost hit the enrage timer on Hagara. It wasn't really because people were dead, although there were some baddies who died during the ice phase. No, it was due to shit dps overall. 5 people at around 25k and the rest were between 13-17k. Then add the dead people and you kinda see my point.

Second of all, it's not my job to hand hold you through LFR, just cause you were too lazy to learn the basics of your class and the encounters you queue up for. What about you actually have the decency to do that and not being a dick, being part of the reason why people who do know how to play their class, who didn't cheat their way into LFR with shit gear (Not saying that a few pieces of PvP gear isn't okay) and who did research the encounters? Cause you're being just as much a dick, as the elitists you just pointed at.

It goes both ways tbh and that's not the players fault, that's entirely on Blizz. But don't expect to be carried, when you cheated your way in and generally act like a lazy kid.

[Ooldoong]

quite unfortunate. I've voted to remove people, but it was for consistently messing up mechanics, serious under performance for the gear they have (not gemmed/enchanted/reforged can sometimes fall into this category), or are simply annoying.

I'm wondering if people looked at his gear and dps and felt he was under performing.

[Excellent]

Hi. OP here. Thanks for all the responses!

A couple things to clear up from the comments..
First off, it wasn't my step-son who was upset... it was me.
He wasn't in full pvp blues, he still has a few of those but we spent the whole week doing H: HoTs, and he got valor boots and bracers (fully gemmed and enchanted appropriately for his spec).
Him and I are already in a friendly, family friendly guild. It's our family, and there are 3 generations of my family in the guild.. we run it. There are 8 family members in total (in a guild with almost 600 members). The primary goal here was to get him some 384 pieces so he could start running our regular 10-mans.
He is now working on the second stage of the legendary daggers quest chain.
And I was vague before when I said he was "at the bottom of the meters," he was actually 17th overall, doing about 18k (during the rest of the raid, he died very early in the wipe that resulted in his kick, this was his only death in that raid).

A couple of you guys that came on to agree with the people who kicked him ended up ignoring certain parts of the original post. Thats fine, just pointing it out.

Someone mentioned that because I had him in LFR, that I was "teaching him to game the system" or something. Let me just say, you are way off-base. LFR has certain restrictions that keep low-level and low-geared people from queuing. You must be level 85, you must have at least 372 average ilvl. My step-son met these requirements on his rogue. Neither of us expected him to be carried. I was giving him instruction during the fights (our computers are in the same room).

---------- Post added 2012-05-21 at 10:03 PM ----------

if i was there i would have voted to kick aswell..LFR is not the place to gear and learn ur class its fucking ENDGAME CONTENT!!! u run heroics until u know what ur doing.
also i hate people who buy ilvl 377 pvp blues to get into twilight heroics and then i gotta carry their ass...its sad honestly, if ur under 20k dps by the time ur doing twilight heroics i will most likely kick u from my group and do what i can to prevent u getting loot because its simple..u dont deserve it, ur not carrying ur own weight..ur so lazy and god knows what else that u just buy 377 boes without knowing a thing about ur class and then hope to get loot?nono thats not how things work >.< i might seem like a dick to you guys but its just my opinion . people who are sleazebags and dont know what they are doing dont deserve anything.

Yeah, my kid is a sleazebag. That's totally it.

Steal any bicycles today SunBakedDuck?

[Kharli]

Hi. OP here. Thanks for all the responses!

A couple things to clear up from the comments..
First off, it wasn't my step-son who was upset... it was me.
He wasn't in full pvp blues, he still has a few of those but we spent the whole week doing H: HoTs, and he got valor boots and bracers (fully gemmed and enchanted appropriately for his spec).
Him and I are already in a friendly, family friendly guild. It's our family, and there are 3 generations of my family in the guild.. we run it. There are 8 family members in total (in a guild with almost 600 members). The primary goal here was to get him some 384 pieces so he could start running our regular 10-mans.
He is now working on the second stage of the legendary daggers quest chain.
And I was vague before when I said he was "at the bottom of the meters," he was actually 17th overall, doing about 18k (during the rest of the raid, he died very early in the wipe that resulted in his kick, this was his only death in that raid).

A couple of you guys that came on to agree with the people who kicked him ended up ignoring certain parts of the original post. Thats fine, just pointing it out.

Someone mentioned that because I had him in LFR, that I was "teaching him to game the system" or something. Let me just say, you are way off-base. LFR has certain restrictions that keep low-level and low-geared people from queuing. You must be level 85, you must have at least 372 average ilvl. My step-son met these requirements on his rogue. Neither of us expected him to be carried. I was giving him instruction during the fights (our computers are in the same room).

---------- Post added 2012-05-21 at 10:03 PM ----------



Yeah, my kid is a sleazebag. That's totally it.

Steal any bicycles today SunBakedDuck?

Sadly enough that is how some people act, i was top dps as ret pala on Madness, i got vote kicked after the tanks died, sad but it's true.
I just hope your step-son don't take it to hard(and i might add you don't need 380+ to do NM dragon soul, hell 80% of my guild had barley 372 when we started DS.)your step-son will enjoy the game
i Just hope(again) that your step-son will enjoy the game despite the LFR experience.
and good luck with the daggers
~Lysandian of Darkmoonfaire EU - Isovia

[crystaline]

Using PVP blues to cheat system if you're pro and still pull 18k+ on Ultra? Ok.

There will be bads that are below you. Just don't be the last DPS in a low DPS group.

[Deleted]

Hi. OP here. Thanks for all the responses!

A couple things to clear up from the comments..
First off, it wasn't my step-son who was upset... it was me.
He wasn't in full pvp blues, he still has a few of those but we spent the whole week doing H: HoTs, and he got valor boots and bracers (fully gemmed and enchanted appropriately for his spec).
Him and I are already in a friendly, family friendly guild. It's our family, and there are 3 generations of my family in the guild.. we run it. There are 8 family members in total (in a guild with almost 600 members). The primary goal here was to get him some 384 pieces so he could start running our regular 10-mans.
He is now working on the second stage of the legendary daggers quest chain.
And I was vague before when I said he was "at the bottom of the meters," he was actually 17th overall, doing about 18k (during the rest of the raid, he died very early in the wipe that resulted in his kick, this was his only death in that raid).

A couple of you guys that came on to agree with the people who kicked him ended up ignoring certain parts of the original post. Thats fine, just pointing it out.

Someone mentioned that because I had him in LFR, that I was "teaching him to game the system" or something. Let me just say, you are way off-base. LFR has certain restrictions that keep low-level and low-geared people from queuing. You must be level 85, you must have at least 372 average ilvl. My step-son met these requirements on his rogue. Neither of us expected him to be carried. I was giving him instruction during the fights (our computers are in the same room).

---------- Post added 2012-05-21 at 10:03 PM ----------



Yeah, my kid is a sleazebag. That's totally it.

Steal any bicycles today SunBakedDuck?

Okay OP, you did clear up some things. Things that, had you mentioned them from the beginning, could have resulted in less confusion tbh. So, it's now clear, that your step-son didn't cheat his way in and that he was actually gemmed and enchanted - plus 1 to you guys.

Here's when it starts to be not so cool though. I mean, 18k dps is less than I do as a tank. Granted I'm better geared but still, there's tanks in LFR who will do close to that as well. And you say he was 17th on the meter. Uhmm out of 25 people where 2 are tanks and 5 are healers, that means that your step-son was last on the dps. I don't know, whether or not it was his own fault for dying. More often than not when people die very early, it does tend to be their own fault though. So add an early dead=adding to the issues you had as a group, to his low dps and yeah you'll get a kick.

As I said, if he hasn't learned how to play his class yet, LFR is unforgiving. You can't expect people to carry your step-son or anyone else they don't know. Cool that he's on the stage 2 Legendary but honestly, a guild group in normal DS with 20% nerf is probably just as easy as LFR with a bunch of baddies. Since a guild group can breeze through normal DS in less than 2 hours. I mean, even pug groups clear 6/8 HM now. And if your step-son can't do more than 18k dps, he is indeed being carried. And that is fine, as long as it is you and your guild who carries him. But don't expect to get anything handed to you in LFR tbh. It's already faceroll easy as it is, so if you can't carry your weight in LFR, you probably don't belong there in the first place.

[Deleted]

Here's when it starts to be not so cool though. I mean, 18k dps is less than I do as a tank.

That attitude is part of what's wrong with LFR. The other part is the afkers and the people who go in full pvp blues.
So you are an awesomely geared tank and can dish out 18k dps. Great, congrats! Beware the lesser geared players!

In my LFR groups, 18k dps is often the average, or above the average... and make no mistake, we clear them without wipes (i don't remember the last time i had a wipe in lfr). And my first LFRs tanking were with me dealing 8k-9k dps. So, relax, really. In any case, i can see why you defend the people who decided that the fault was the OP's kid, and not lacking 4 members (2 healers! ffs). You would have done the same thing: the last person in the list of dps doesn't deserve to play LFR with me, he has to go.

Thankfully, LFR also has many nice people, like those who win rolls because they need on everything, and pass the item onto the second roller if they don't need the item, or people like the main tanks that explained me the mechanics of the bosses the first times i went. There's good among the bad.

[Deleted]

That attitude is part of what's wrong with LFR. The other part is the afkers and the people who go in full pvp blues.
So you are an awesomely geared tank and can dish out 18k dps. Great, congrats! Beware the lesser geared players!

In my LFR groups, 18k dps is often the average, or above the average... and make no mistake, we clear them without wipes (i don't remember the last time i had a wipe in lfr). And my first LFRs tanking were with me dealing 8k-9k dps. So, relax, really. In any case, i can see why you defend the people who decided that the fault was the OP's kid, and not lacking 4 members (2 healers! ffs). You would have done the same thing: the last person in the list of dps doesn't deserve to play LFR with me, he has to go.

Thankfully, LFR also has many nice people, like those who win rolls because they need on everything, and pass the item onto the second roller if they don't need the item, or people like the main tanks that explained me the mechanics of the bosses the first times i went. There's good among the bad.

Why don't you scroll back and read my previous posts, before you go all up in arms, trying to make valid points with things, I never said?

I used the tank comparison to make a point, not to "boost" my own e-peen. I mentioned, how even decent geared LFR tanks will do close to 18k on several fights and I pointed out, that regardless any reasonable explanation for his low dps, he was still bottom of the meter and 18k is still crap for an ilvl 372 with gems and enchants.

I never once said, that it was the OP's step-sons fault that they wiped. I just replied to his post about his step-son being kicked. Maybe you should go back and read all the posts, before you come in here and feel butthurt about something that I never said? Oh and please, you can't remember the last time you wiped in LFR? I call BS! I can't remember the last time I didn't wipe at least once on either Spine or DW due to shit dps, shit heals or shit tanks.

[Deadraline]

Thankfully I have never been kicked from LFR...But my husband has many times. First time my husband got kicked was on spine. He was tanking the bloods while the other tank tanked the big add. Sadly, the other tank didn't understand the concept of gathering bloods and we ended up wiping...so they kicked both tanks even though it was only one tanks fault. A second time he got kicked because the other tank didn't want any competition on gear, so he voted to kick my husband and got some others in the party to do so as well. Ironically, my husband didn't even want any of the gear because he was just there to help out a few of our guild members learn the fights...he even mentioned he didn't want any gear from there at the start to the other tank...lol. And the third time my husband was kicked was on gunship when he was trying to explain to the tanks how they were supposed to be taunting...and of course people don't appreciate help and for some reason kicked him from group.

So don't take it too personally when your kid got kicked...it seems to me 90% of the kicks I have seen were for no apparent reason at all. The only legit kicks I have seen are when people go offline, or you see someone afk during fights.

The best thing you can do is just keep going though. Sadly, more times than not you'll have to suffer because some people think LFR DS is soooo serious...it's funny people say how easy it is, yet those same people usually wipe because they don't kill the bolt, or they AoE when they should single target...or they just don't kill adds when they should and that's why they wipe. So many people go in there assuming it's a zerg fest and they don't need to worry about doing the very basic mechanics because they can just get healed through it or whatever. It's so annoying. Tell your son the people who kicked them are just bad players. I'd also recommend maybe trying to run LFR early in the week...seems weekends are just terrible times to run. If I run on a weekday I usually get better groups...weekends usually get bad groups. But that could just be me. :P