I think Ghostcrawler is right about the mana regeneration being too low in low gear.

[fateswarm]

I think Ghostcrawler is right about the mana regeneration being too low in low gear. (here)

I have a priest alt with entry gear for 378 5mans and LFR, and it often feels like what I need is not pure spell power or other such "DPS"(output) stats but pure regeneration. I noticed the most "prudent" players that want to keep their mana very high for practice, keep the tanks in 5mans of 378 on purpose low so they can heal them when it's only absolutely necessary (when the healer is entry level). Well, one could of course claim that max utilization of regeneration spells might improve the picture more than what I describe but it comes a point that it feels like this max utilization and perfection is probably too much for the needs of some common non-Heroic (raiding) healing.

Then again I'm thinking, this is a bit dangerous to create a situation where DPS gear is more valuable so, yeah,

The right solution might be huge mana pools (with a bonus multiplier), with low regeration and big bonuses on healing spells when the spec is healing so that spirit is valuable, mana doesn't drop very rapidly and "DPS" stats do not easily beat it.

So yeah, they might have to return to spirit as primary.

What do you think?

[babylon]

i think that if you play discipline priest and have mana problems in 378+lfr gear, then you must be doing something very wrong.

if you play holy then either you do something wrong or you did something wrong when gearing up and didnt gather enough spirit.

[Cedrich]

Those posts are with regard to the Mists of Pandaria beta test.

[Piffnifty]

Are you speaking of live or MOP? Since that comment from GC was about leveling dungeons in MOP with the new mana system I assume. I can't speak of the live leveling as a priest personally as it's been a while but I do remember early Cata when Holy had pretty much non existent Holy Concentration and had to really manage mana back then while leveling + in raids, it can't be as bad as then.

[Darkener]

And yet Mindbender was nerfed from 6% to 4%.

[Cedrich]

The two blue posts the OP is referring too are part of a thread on the US Beta forum. They relate to Healer mana in questing gear in dungeons, which is currently too low and causing difficulties. The OP is CLEARLY misinterpreting them as being about live realms (as he references raid finder and 378 gear), where a healer with gear appropriate to the content will not have mana issues that prevent them from clearing said content, provided they or their group are not playing poorly.

[madrox]

On live my priest hasn't had issues with mana since early Cata and it's not as if I'm wearing gear from bleeding edge content. My alliance priest, who I haven't touched really since dinging 85, has woeful in comparison; but that's to be expected. If you are still having issues with mana you are either wearing gear not appropriate to the content or are doing something wrong. It could be that you are being grouped with woeful tanks, but that should be easily identifiable and shouldn't be confused with class inherent mana problems. I'm a bit concerned on how mana will play out in MoP, but that's a bridge to be crossed at a later date. For now, on live, priest's don't have mana issues.

[Ynna]

I think the problem is that mana regeneration is too high in high gear.

[fateswarm]

The two blue posts the OP is referring too are part of a thread on the US Beta forum. They relate to Healer mana in questing gear in dungeons, which is currently too low and causing difficulties. The OP is CLEARLY misinterpreting them as being about live realms (as he references raid finder and 378 gear), where a healer with gear appropriate to the content will not have mana issues that prevent them from clearing said content, provided they or their group are not playing poorly.

OK, the problem though is that you don't realize he's talking about mechanics that should be changed. Mechanics that existed up to beta, and that exist in live.

[Cedrich]

OK, the problem though is that you don't realize he's talking about mechanics that should be changed. Mechanics that existed up to beta, and that exist in live.

No, nobody is. The ENTIRE thread you link relates to the MOP BETA. What's so difficult about that to understand? The OP of the thread is upset because JotP is gone IN THE BETA and he tries to compare Apples and Oranges by listing other classes' mechanics in relation to his own. Ghostcrawler then chimes in to explain that they removed JotP because they felt Holy Paladins were considerably outmatching other healers on longevity already and no longer needed it. Later in the thread, he goes on to say that, with this change he feels healers (in the beta) are now fairly well balanced mana-wise in relation to one and other. He adds that they are happy with Healer mana regen in level 90 endgame gear, but not in gear-levels before that point and hence, will be buffing base mana regen (in the beta).

None of this bears any relevance to anything outside the beta. JotP is not gone outside the beta. Healer mana is fine in dungerons outside the beta.

I think Ghostcrawler is right about the mana regeneration being too low in low gear. (here)

I have a priest alt with entry gear for 378 5mans and LFR, and it often feels like what I need is not pure spell power or other such "DPS"(output) stats but pure regeneration.

Intellect provides Spellpower, regen and a larger mana pool. You are rarely, if ever, trading regen for Spellpower.

I noticed the most "prudent" players that want to keep their mana very high for practice, keep the tanks in 5mans of 378 on purpose low so they can heal them when it's only absolutely necessary (when the healer is entry level).

Nonsense. Care to provide a logical explanation of how it costs less mana to keep a tank at say, 20-30% HP than it costs to keep them at 80-90%. It doesn't, and it gives you less scope for error if you do so. Nobody 'prudent' would adopt any such strategy.

Well, one could of course claim that max utilization of regeneration spells might improve the picture more than what I describe but it comes a point that it feels like this max utilization and perfection is probably too much for the needs of some common non-Heroic (raiding) healing.

Pressing a single button 2-3 times per boss is not whet most people would call challenging.

Then again I'm thinking, this is a bit dangerous to create a situation where DPS gear is more valuable so, yeah,

'DPS' gear? I'm going to assume you mean gear with Haste/Crit/Mastery. These stats are valuable because of the need to provide more healing in the same amount of time as one progresses through content. If you do not want a world where healers need to heal MORE in more advanced content, and instead favor ever-increasing longevity, the only way to 'challenge' healers would be longer and longer boss fights, which nobody wants. Haste/Crit/Mastery and Spirit come at a trade-off. Most healers seek balance in that they obtain enough Spirit that they have a comfortable amount of regen, and then choose to go for other stats that increase healing output beyond that.

The right solution might be huge mana pools (with a bonus multiplier), with low regeration and big bonuses on healing spells when the spec is healing so that spirit is valuable, mana doesn't drop very rapidly and "DPS" stats do not easily beat it.

Again, extreme longevity as a sanctioned model for healers is not something we want. Spirit IS valuable at the moment, but not to a point where you want to stack it to the exclusion of all else. The status quo is fine for now.

[houseonhill]

agree man!

[fateswarm]

You sound very upset and condescending, but anyway, to clear something up,

Again, extreme longevity as a sanctioned model for healers is not something we want.

I didn't mean an increased stamina (longevity) with that, I meant a technical solution to DPS gear being possibly preferred (I've noticed healers needing items without hit and spirit very regularly lately). The mana pool could be huge but the spells could be big spenders.

[Sayier]

I meant a technical solution to DPS gear being possibly preferred (I've noticed healers needing items without hit and spirit very regularly lately). The mana pool could be huge but the spells could be big spenders.

Just because it doesn't have spirit doesn't mean it's not healer gear.

[Zergin8r]

Yeah... I don't think regen is to low. Learn to manage mana and triage properly, I was pulled into Well Of Eternity for the 2nd boss, and had just switched specs, healed the whole fight with no one dying at - 2% mana the whole time. This was as a Smite Heal Disc Priest in a mix of 378 and 346 gear with an average group, no 20K DPS or 200K hp tank or anything.

[chosenkiwi]

I think Ghostcrawler is right about the mana regeneration being too low in low gear. (here)

He is refering to pandaria regen. Cata regen is fine. Also I beleive he is specifically tlaking about leveling dungeons, not LFR raids.

[fateswarm]

Just because it doesn't have spirit doesn't mean it's not healer gear.

Wellll It's a grey area. When a Tier has 1 ring with spirit, another with crit/hit and another with mastery/haste only, one could claim that the healer gets at least one of the non-spirit rings as healing gear (usually the one with mastery on it) (assuming Blizzard didn't do a mistake which could be claimed it is the case, e.g. Tier 13 has no 410 cloaks if I recall correctly). Now you get to some clearer cases that in that scenario the hit/crit ring is usually not considered healing gear. A healer could claim it is because what he has now has spirit but it's 333, but most people would agree that doesn't give him a priority.

Now, there is a more tricky situation: having 2 rings of spirit, and 2 different rings that have mastery/crit and hit/haste. Could there a healer claim priority on the non-spirit rings? Not easily. The others wouldn't accept them getting priority on 3 items out of 4 unless nobody else needs it.

[Dreyen]

playing your class right and knowing when youre overhealing too much is part of mana regen as well.. i know our resto druid reforges out of all the spirit he can, so do i on my shaman. Arguably, we have more int at higher itemlevels, but for exemple, what use is there to spam chainheal on heroic madness when everybody is unloading on the tentacle when healing rain covers 100% of my healing needs? I literally only chainheal when blistering tentacles come out on the 3rd and 4th platforms... and this is the heroic mode of the last fight in the game.

[Kelesti]

Wellll It's a grey area. When a Tier has 1 ring with spirit, another with crit/hit and another with mastery/haste only, one could claim that the healer gets at least one of the non-spirit rings as healing gear (usually the one with mastery on it) (assuming Blizzard didn't do a mistake which could be claimed it is the case, e.g. Tier 13 has no 410 cloaks if I recall correctly). Now you get to some clearer cases that in that scenario the hit/crit ring is usually not considered healing gear. A healer could claim it is because what he has now has spirit but it's 333, but most people would agree that doesn't give him a priority.

Now, there is a more tricky situation: having 2 rings of spirit, and 2 different rings that have mastery/crit and hit/haste. Could there a healer claim priority on the non-spirit rings? Not easily. The others wouldn't accept them getting priority on 3 items out of 4 unless nobody else needs it.

The needs of other classes does not stop a non-spirit set of Bracers from Hagara from being Best in Slot (for a mastery heavy Discipline at least).

The point of the matter is, unless it has hit on it, it's healer gear. Using the same amount of mana for higher output (crit/mastery) or an ability to make use of lower, more sustainable casts (haste bumping Heal's cast time down to managable levels) mean that they're all in one way or another "healer stats".

The idea isn't to outgear the need for Spirit like Discipline did by stepping into t12, but to be like a Holy Priest on any non-Spine fight, where you can have a few pieces of gear either forged away from Spirit, or just some that don't have it at all (some of us ran haste/mastery pieces wherever we could afford it).

[Arlee]

The point of the matter is, unless it has hit on it, it's healer gear. Using the same amount of mana for higher output (crit/mastery) or an ability to make use of lower, more sustainable casts (haste bumping Heal's cast time down to managable levels) mean that they're all in one way or another "healer stats".

Well... not to muddy up things but... just because a piece of gear has spirit on it doesn't stop it from being BiS gear for shadow as well. There aren't always gear with all the same stats on it but hit instead of spirit.

[Kelesti]

Well... not to muddy up things but... just because a piece of gear has spirit on it doesn't stop it from being BiS gear for shadow as well. There aren't always gear with all the same stats on it but hit instead of spirit.

oh, absolutely. But seeing a haste/mastery belt and a spirit/crit belt, it's amazing at how many will look at the spirit/crit as "the only healer belt" and complain to blizzard about not enough itemization.