1. #1
    Stood in the Fire Tybudd33's Avatar
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    Confusion about Diablo 3 Weapons stats 2H vs 1h

    I'm from wow, so I guess that is where my logic is, but for some reason I'm noticing that, 1 hander weapons of equal level have the same dps as equivelant level 2 handers, but 2 handers are faster, doesn't seem logical to me.


    So what are teh pros and cons of each?

  2. #2
    I think your mistaken on the weapons speed. The weapons don't have a specific weapon speed like on wow, instead they are written as 'hits per second' so a two hander with 0.9 hit per second has an actual speed of 1.1 seconds while a 1h wep with 1.5 hit per second has an actual speed of 0.6 seconds. So the 1h weps are faster which means they hit more often but not as hard and also special abilities dont hit as hard with 1h as they scale from the wep dmg.

  3. #3
    Also notice that the actual displayed dps is what is calculated using the dmg and the weapon speed plus any other modifiers. For example, adding a gem will increase the dps number on the weapon.

  4. #4
    Deleted
    Basically, using 1handers increases your attack speed by 15%(?) and gives you the secondary stats, you don't actually get the full weapon damage from it, whereas with 2handers you get the full effect as a 1hander.

    In almost every term I can think of, running with a 1hander and a shield/quiver/mojo/wizardthing is better than running with a 2hander or another 1hander unless the stats on the 2hander are superb compared to your other items.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    A very important fact to also keep in mind is that item levels are not set the same way as in other games. In WoW, if you get two weapons of the same item level you can be sure that both have equal amount of stats (at least in volume) and both weapons serve a purpose. Not so in Diablo 3. Each weapon is randomly generated and items of same item level have different amount of stats, and with so many stats to choose from, it means that most items will be entirely garbled.

    You will see a lot of items, both weapon, armor and accessories and you just wonder who the heck in their right minds would want this piece of junk? The discrepancy can be substantial and the confusion continues with different item types. Blues, in many cases, are better than legendaries, sets or rares, due to the high randomization.

    When it comes to choosing between 1Hs and 2Hs, the big difference is that 1Hs (at least supposedly) are meant to hit for less, in which case you either want to get a shield for added protection, or dual wield. When you dual wield, you get a 15% increased attack speed, which usually levels the playing field, compared to 2Hs which (again supposedly) hit harder. The only trick with dual wielding is that you should always have the better of the two in your main hand and both should be fairly equal in dps. If they are not and your off-hand is severely weaker than your main hand, than you can actually lose dps by dual wielding.

    I believe the exact figure is 74% IIRC (that if your off-hands dps is only 74% of your main hand), at which point the difference cancels out the 15% increased attack speed bonus. Below that figure and you start losing dps.

    Edit: the reason you want to use your better weapon in your main hand is simply because the damage of your abilities (where it says X% weapon damage on your tooltips) is based on your main hand.

  6. #6
    When DWing in WoW, you strike with each weapon independently. So, if you have a 2.6 MH and 1.8 OH, every 2.6 seconds you strike with MH, and every 1.8 seconds you strike with OH. The timing of one does not affect the other. The effective damage is the combination of the main and off hand damage, though the offhand damage has a 50% penalty.

    In D3, you alternate between the two weapons. You get a 15% attack speed bonus, but each weapon hits the same as they would regardless of hand. The effective damage is the weighted average of the two weapon damages, weighted by their speed.

    For example, suppose you have a 200 damage, 1.1 attacks per second (APS) weapon and a 250 damage, 1 APS weapon. Equipping the two results in an effective 245 DPS. Of particular note that if you equipped just the 250/1 APS weapon, you'd have 250 DPS.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Khargillian View Post
    Basically, using 1handers increases your attack speed by 15%(?) and gives you the secondary stats, you don't actually get the full weapon damage from it, whereas with 2handers you get the full effect as a 1hander.

    In almost every term I can think of, running with a 1hander and a shield/quiver/mojo/wizardthing is better than running with a 2hander or another 1hander unless the stats on the 2hander are superb compared to your other items.
    Possible exception is monks who get a Passive that gives 15% Dodge for DW Fists, almost as good as a shield.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Tybudd33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippostar View Post
    Also notice that the actual displayed dps is what is calculated using the dmg and the weapon speed plus any other modifiers. For example, adding a gem will increase the dps number on the weapon.
    I def need to test this theory out, so when you say "using the damage of the weapon" are you talking about the damage range
    Example: 400-510 damage or the max of it, and then multiplying it by the APS is what is making the dps?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLive
    For example, suppose you have a 200 damage, 1.1 attacks per second (APS) weapon and a 250 damage, 1 APS weapon. Equipping the two results in an effective 245 DPS. Of particular note that if you equipped just the 250/1 APS weapon, you'd have 250 DPS.
    Hey Mike, how did you figure this info out, I coudln't get your math together here, were you just using the 245 as an example that in that situation your overall damage would drop, or the numbers you had there actually equaled that 245?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khargillian
    In almost every term I can think of, running with a 1hander and a shield/quiver/mojo/wizardthing is better than running with a 2hander or another 1hander unless the stats on the 2hander are superb compared to your other items.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathais View Post
    Possible exception is monks who get a Passive that gives 15% Dodge for DW Fists, almost as good as a shield.
    Well I'd think a DH running a 2hander with a Quiver is better than 1Hander and a quiver no?

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-25 at 06:41 PM ----------

    OK, look at this weapon, tell me if I'm reading this right:





    Requires level
    57

    Arreat Axe

    1-Hand Axe 160.5–166.4 Damage Per Second
    (87-90)–(160-166) Damage
    1.30 Attacks per Second

    • OK, so my assumption from what you guys are saying relates to the 2 sets of numbers in parenthesis right, for example if you just used the 1 hander with your basic off hand item shield etc, you'd get the full effect of damage as (160-166)
    • But if you dual wield this weapon with another weapon, you'd get the damage effect of the (87-90)?
    • Therefore with 2 1h-weapons of (87-90) gives you a total damage equivelant of (174-180) dual wielding, and if that is true the one comment of a 1 hander and quiver/shield makes sense because it isn't but a small damage lost.


    But I still have one more question only if my assumption is true, how off balance do the weapons have to be if you are dual wielding to be losing damage?

    Example:
    MH weapon (87-90)
    OH weapon (75-78)
    would be overall of (162-168)?

    Even though there is a difference it would still be higher it seems, unless there is a hidden scaler that scales the weapons closer in range due to the differences?


    Sorry guys if this is confusion, but stats only make sense to me
    Last edited by Tybudd33; 2012-05-26 at 01:19 AM.

  9. #9
    Tybudd

    A weighted average is the sum of each item multiplied by the weight, all divided by the sum of the weights. If each weight is 1, then you get a normal average (as the sum of the weights would be the count).

    In the D3 DW case, say the two weapons have damages (I'll use the individual weapon's average damage, which is what the UI stat display uses) A and B, with APS u and v, respectively. Then the average damage (note damage not DPS) for DW would be (Au+Bv)/(u+v). In the example given, I actually made a calculation error, it should read 224 damage, not 245.

  10. #10
    @tybudd, you're looking at it wrong, it's not 87-90 dps, that's just the low end, not total damage. It's Gonna be like 88-165 dmg on the weapon, and then the shown dps is the product you get from the average of the damage and the attack speed.

    2h's will generally always hit harder but slower than 1hs, and a 1hs dmg is gonna remain the same range, it's just that it averages your main hand and offhand together to get your damage, meaning you could potentially lose damage if your offhand is marginally worse than your mainhand. But duel-wielding does give 15% attack speed, which is a great stat.

    Another thing is at low levels flat dmg increases are worth a lot more than getting your primary stat, because of the way it scales. 1 int is 1% dmg for my witch doctor, and when you have a 50 dps weapon that's only .5 dmg, but when you have a 1000 dps weapon 1 int is 10 dps. That's also why a two hander is generally better overall damage late game, just because of the way it scales.
    <Decidedly Uncouth> Horde Mal'Ganis

  11. #11
    Also, keep in mind that when you Dual-Wield, the +Damage bonuses value higher, cause you naturally attack faster, which devalues Attack Speed to a point.
    When using the slower two-hander weapons, Attack Speed can make significantly bigger improvements to damage output that +Damage bonuses will.

    Basically, make the faster weapons hit harder, make the heavy-hitting weapons hit faster.

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire Tybudd33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeLive View Post
    Tybudd

    A weighted average is the sum of each item multiplied by the weight, all divided by the sum of the weights. If each weight is 1, then you get a normal average (as the sum of the weights would be the count).

    In the D3 DW case, say the two weapons have damages (I'll use the individual weapon's average damage, which is what the UI stat display uses) A and B, with APS u and v, respectively. Then the average damage (note damage not DPS) for DW would be (Au+Bv)/(u+v). In the example given, I actually made a calculation error, it should read 224 damage, not 245.
    That equation was a beautiful breakdown, but when I seen :

    Quote Originally Posted by Blada


    2h's will generally always hit harder but slower than 1hs, and a 1hs dmg is gonna remain the same range, it's just that it averages your main hand and offhand together to get your damage, meaning you could potentially lose damage if your offhand is marginally worse than your mainhand. But duel-wielding does give 15% attack speed, which is a great stat.
    I"m wandering does that have to be added in there like (u+v)*1.15 so instead of it being 2.1 total APS its would be 2.42 APS.

    making it 195 damage instead of 224. Now thats Damage per hit. Not dps.

    So in theory that seems that the 15% speed helps moreso with resourse builders and per hit procs moreso than it does with overall damage, because overall damage balances out with this theory

    UNLESS!!!!

    the 15% is calculated AFTER and not with.

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-25 at 08:54 PM ----------

    But thats where I get lost, I don't see how you would calculate that
    Last edited by Tybudd33; 2012-05-26 at 03:41 AM.

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