1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Anium's Avatar
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    Sub - Dagger + sword combo

    I asking on behalf of a friend, who is running his sub spec a dagger in his main hand (so he's still getting the increased damage when ambushing) and a sword in is off. I want to know what's the downside of doing this because I wasn't too sure, besides the obvious attack speed being slower thus poisons not applying as quickly, but with a sword he's telling me it's more damage. Would like clarification as to why this isn't used, sure theres a simple answer
    Thank you in advance

  2. #2
    The main reason is because once you get to five stacks with your offhand poison, every time you strike with your offhand, it procs your mainhand poison. This strongly favors a fast OH weapon.
    Last edited by underdogba; 2012-05-26 at 09:53 AM.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Anium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underdogba View Post
    Hemo hits decently hard with non-dagger weapons, but it does not make up for losing Backstab.
    Thanks for the reply, but he's not losing backstab, he still has a dagger in his main and a sword in his off.

  4. #4
    With same dps weapons in Offhand (sword or dagger), unless you doing mutilation or shiv, will do the same dps no matter their speed (disregarding poison and stats).
    Things that matter most is deadly poison which favours fast offhand.
    Another thing that matters is what stats the weapons have. Diffrent stats is favored more than others.

  5. #5
    The Patient
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    As previously commented. It's strongly to do with poisons.

    If he's using a sword he's having a longer ramp up time. Being Sub he has no where near (and shouldn't) the spell hit cap. So not only are his stacks taking longer to build, but when they miss it's hurting his dps badly. I can probably guarantee he's losing his DP stacks 5+ times a fight.

    Even though Spell hit is a low priority for Sub, It dosn't expel the use of poisons and the fact that they are a very marginal DPS increase depending on RNG.
    Your friend however has opted to stick the middle finger to RNG and go and make his own bad luck with the choice of a Sword in the off hand.

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Anium's Avatar
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    But he's not assassination he's sub spec, and i'm talking purely for pvp purposes not for pve boss fights.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anium View Post
    But he's not assassination he's sub spec, and i'm talking purely for pvp purposes not for pve boss fights.
    In that case, he's losing out on what matters and not really gaining anything.

    In PvP the white melee attacks do not really matter. Your damage comes from your special attacks, Backstab and Hemo. These, to my knowledge, only hit with the main hand, not the off-hand. So his off-hand, in his case, is nothing but a useless "stat-stick". In PvP, you'll often want your main "annoyance" poison on your main-hand and your main utility poison on your off-hand. Often that'd be Wound Poison on the main hand and Crippling Poison on the off-hand. That way, you can safely keep up the Wound-debuff and still keep the enemy slowed as much as possible. Now, here's what happens to your friend:

    1. He has a slower off hand which doesn't benefit him anything
    2. Since the weapon is slower, the white attacks of his off-hand do more damage but they're still generally useless.
    3. Because the off-hand is slower, he'll lose out on a lot of poison applications.
    4. This will result in a lot of utility loss for the "benefit" or no real additional damage.

    So in short; He gains nothing, he loses poison applications.

  8. #8
    I never thought about it like that

  9. #9
    go sword main hand for hemo

  10. #10
    If he has Dagger in mainhand, and Sword in offhand (both of them are the slowest of their types i presume?), why can't he just simply use Deadly Poison on the mh dagger and instant on the offhand sword? He won't lose that much then, right? What's the problem here?

    Having a slow dagger in the mainhand with DP, sure the number of procs for the DP is a bit lower than if he had a fast dagger with DP in the offhand instead, BUT that is only in regards to autoattacks, no? Isn't that loss offset by all the instant attacks made by his abilities (Evis, BS, Hemo etc) to proc DP from the main hand?

    Cuz afaik, these are the main setups you can use for Subt (correct me if im wrong):

    Main hand = Slow weapon (always, regardless if Dagger, or if non-dagger Hemo spec)
    Offhand = Equally slow, or slower weapon
    Equals to = DP in main hand, Instant in off

    Main hand = Slow weapon (always, regardless if Dagger, or if non-dagger Hemo spec)
    Offhand = Faster weapon than main hand (preferably a really fast dagger)
    Equals to = DP in offhand, Instant in main

    Isn't that what one would do with the poisons? Anyone care to enlighten me about this?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by azamagon View Post
    If he has Dagger in mainhand, and Sword in offhand (both of them are the slowest of their types i presume?), why can't he just simply use Deadly Poison on the mh dagger and instant on the offhand sword? He won't lose that much then, right? What's the problem here?

    Having a slow dagger in the mainhand with DP, sure the number of procs for the DP is a bit lower than if he had a fast dagger with DP in the offhand instead, BUT that is only in regards to autoattacks, no? Isn't that loss offset by all the instant attacks made by his abilities (Evis, BS, Hemo etc) to proc DP from the main hand?

    Cuz afaik, these are the main setups you can use for Subt (correct me if im wrong):

    Main hand = Slow weapon (always, regardless if Dagger, or if non-dagger Hemo spec)
    Offhand = Equally slow, or slower weapon
    Equals to = DP in main hand, Instant in off

    Main hand = Slow weapon (always, regardless if Dagger, or if non-dagger Hemo spec)
    Offhand = Faster weapon than main hand (preferably a really fast dagger)
    Equals to = DP in offhand, Instant in main

    Isn't that what one would do with the poisons? Anyone care to enlighten me about this?
    We're talking about pvp.
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  12. #12
    Whats the name of the dagger and the name of the sword he's using? The sword wouldn't be doing much more damage than a fast offhand would be.

  13. #13
    Even tho the chance for procs are higher on slow weapons, you get alot more hits in with a 1.5 weapon and thus the chances to apply a poison is higher.
    In a PvP situation, only the MH need to be a dagger (slowest he can get) to get more damage from his hemo/backstabs.

    If he plays a hemo spec, get a slow sword/fist weapon/axe (2.6speed), for more damage.

  14. #14
    It seems a lot of people are confused with what poisons a Sub rogue uses, as far as i know it has always been crippling and either wound or mind numbing mostly even wound. Deadly and instant are only used for Assassination as the poison proc cripples them by default. that being said, I am the alleged friend :P and wanted to clarify that the only reason i am using sword is because ever since i have had it equipped which initially was purely out of style i found that my damage had increased by quite a bit. if the only downside is potentially applying crippling poison less then i am more than fine my main concern was losing dmg out of ambush and backstab as i was unclear whether the dmg increased for each dagger i had opposed to just wielding one.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tholted View Post
    It seems a lot of people are confused with what poisons a Sub rogue uses, as far as i know it has always been crippling and either wound or mind numbing mostly even wound. Deadly and instant are only used for Assassination as the poison proc cripples them by default. that being said, I am the alleged friend :P and wanted to clarify that the only reason i am using sword is because ever since i have had it equipped which initially was purely out of style i found that my damage had increased by quite a bit. if the only downside is potentially applying crippling poison less then i am more than fine my main concern was losing dmg out of ambush and backstab as i was unclear whether the dmg increased for each dagger i had opposed to just wielding one.
    Again, to my knowledge the damage of a sword in your off-hand shouldn't affect the damage of your Ambush or damage in general. You'll only have some harder hitting white-attacks for the cost of poison applications. Which generally isn't worth it, I'd say.

  16. #16
    Keep in mind, putting a slow offhand will also increase the cost of shiv to 46 energy, which is a pretty big ouch.

  17. #17
    If you're using a slow off-hand sword... then why is every other pvp sub rogue (without legendary) using daggers for both? Looking at the top Rogues on arena junkies, none of them are using a sword/axe/fist/mace offhand.

  18. #18
    Pandaren Monk Tenkachii's Avatar
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    Sword in offhand is nothing wrong with if it is high speed, But since it's a sword and this is cataclysm it's slow speed so meh, low poison proc rate so a lot less cripplings. It's not thát bad but it's a lot worse. Sword in Mainhand DOES work when you go hemo spec! (also dual swords but you'll need a fast offhand or you want to lose a bit of damage )

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