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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    For leveling, just opening with garrote is enough
    If hemo wasn't terrible this could be ok...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Pikapika View Post
    Problem is it's NOT an active ability, it's like HfB but way worse.
    I don't think that "maintain a debuff" is "the same as hfb". Don't get me wrong, the SV change is bad, but calling it hfb is just not fair. For one thing, you don't have an almost resource free button to apply the debuff- doing so costs combo points or stealth. If your enemy is low, it may make sense to ignore the bleed and try for a kill, for instance.

    rogue - with or without legendarys - simply is way too strong atm
    I disagree. I would agree that our burst inside dance is likely too high, but that's a lot of things building up to that, including the 2pc pve bonus making ambush cost so little when those are lined up. But just because we can do damage to plate doesn't mean we are OP- it means we are working properly.

    i also would prefer to play all three speccs in PVE and PVP but which class can do so? warrior prefers Arms over Fury, Mages prefer fire over frost, guilds prefer a blood dk over a prot warrior
    Warriors can play two specs in pvp and pve. Mages can play three specs in pvp and two in pve. Blood DK is a bit OP in pve (feral tank/dps spec much more so, at least in 10s), but there ARE things prot warriors are better at, including a hard fight this tier (spine heroic). Rogue specs in pve are in a good place, but only sub is acceptable in pvp right now, with assassination pretty ok in RBGs and combat definitely hurting.

    but tbh i prefer this instead of keeping up a hot on myself
    I disagree. The hot has several advantages that I really liked about sub:
    1)- Healing.
    2)- Target swap made easier in two ways: you bring the buff with you, and, if you don't or it runs out, you can put it up with the combo points just as your target dies, bringing the hot back to the main target with you.
    3)- Long duration.

    I like the current design much better than the mop one.


    In pvp, as you point out, it's a pretty big deal. In pve, I think it will hurt target swap more than the current iteration, but on a single target it will be very similar.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I disagree. The hot has several advantages that I really liked about sub:
    1)- Healing.
    2)- Target swap made easier in two ways: you bring the buff with you, and, if you don't or it runs out, you can put it up with the combo points just as your target dies, bringing the hot back to the main target with you.
    3)- Long duration.
    1) sure, we lost the healing - but we get leeching poison to compensate. Not saying "it's better in any situation" but from a PvE pov it's a passive healing which works way better (i expect a very big nerf).
    2) it doesn't affect target swap at all. Energetic recovery is now baked into SnD and that lasts 40 second, so we bring it along us anyway and lasts longer. The damage buff is still tied to a bleed on target like it's in live - redirect+rupture takes 1gcd and we get the damage buff again (now it takes some other's gcd or an hemorrage).
    3) recuperate lasts 30 seconds - snd in MoP 40 seconds. Even longer duration.

    I agree that PvP side the new SV is pretty harsh and basically SV is not a good design at all. But it's not the "skyfalling scenario" that everyone is picturing out.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I agree that PvP side the new SV is pretty harsh and basically SV is not a good design at all. But it's not the "skyfalling scenario" that everyone is picturing out.
    Nobody (or at least I'm not) is saying the sky is falling, but the changes they are doing to the class (RvS not being consumed, SV, ruthlessness being removed, among a number of other things) are almost universally for the worse. The only positive things to come out of beta so far are Blindside, and poisons being free. That's not even considering how unfinished our talents and glyphs are, of course.

  5. #25
    bandits guile not resetting on a target switch is always nice...

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Squishychunk View Post
    bandits guile not resetting on a target switch is always nice...
    That is a good one, shame it slipped my mind.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    2) it doesn't affect target swap at all. Energetic recovery is now baked into SnD and that lasts 40 second, so we bring it along us anyway and lasts longer. The damage buff is still tied to a bleed on target like it's in live - redirect+rupture takes 1gcd and we get the damage buff again (now it takes some other's gcd or an hemorrage).
    Sure, we can take SLICE with us, but that's not the same.

    On live, we have two buffs, slice and recup, that we want full uptime on. If we swap to a new target, we won't rupture unless we are planning on being there I think longer than 30 seconds or something.

    On beta, we have one buff and a debuff- the buff is slice, and the debuff is rupture. You calling out "redirect plus rupture takes 1 gcd" in addition to being incorrect, is also silly- the point is you have to burn 5 cp. On live, YOU DO NOT. On live it is tied to a bleed. That bleed is sometimes hemo, but much more likely to be anything our warrior puts up, or our druid if he's some kind of animal for that fight. Previously that damage would be an eviscerate and not cost a cooldown- now it's more complex and also less damage. What if you are on a target for 6 seconds, before going to the next? Previously that was no issue, now it is a big deal.

    Dusting that under the rug is not fair. The new model might be ok and all, but pretending it is more or less the same as the current model, instead of a big and deliberate nerf, is dishonest and wrong.


    3) recuperate lasts 30 seconds - snd in MoP 40 seconds. Even longer duration.
    That's kind of true, but rupture is shorter, though not by much. Remember, rupture is the slice and dice replacement. Even though it looks like the energy got put on to slice, you'll still need slice and rupture instead of slice and recup.

    I agree that PvP side the new SV is pretty harsh and basically SV is not a good design at all. But it's not the "skyfalling scenario" that everyone is picturing out.
    The only reason I don't think it's a sky is falling thing in pvp is because GC said he'll buff us until pvp is good, even knowing that SV is terrible for it. My issue is still that having the motivation to rupture targets on swap is just bad design anyway. In pvp this change is much worse. In pve it's bad, but probably able to be gotten around. This is a refreshing tier because I can make use of every spec, including my least favorite, Assassination- I'm just worried that sub's three things (survival, single target, and target swap) are being changed- single target damage is based on a LOT of things, and Blizzard can't even tell us what is meant to be top because of hybrid supremacists who destroyed the old wow forums, and the SV change absolutely does kill target short term target swap and punish medium term target swap, and Blizzard's confession that they can't balance talent trees because they somehow don't think it is possible so away they go has removed survivability from sub, along with the change that gives us a small amount of passive heal in exchange for our rotational moves.

    It really really really super feels like our spec choice was really hit hard with a new, no-holds-barred philosophy, and it really hit the pures the hardest.

    1- NO PURE SPEC SHALL HAVE SURVIVAL ADVANTAGES OVER ANOTHER PURE SPEC OF THE SAME CLASS
    2- NO PURE SPEC SHALL HAVE CONTROL ADVANTAGES OVER ANOTHER PURE SPEC OF THE SAME CLASS
    3- Uh, all pure specs within a class are supposed to deal equal damage roughly. Since we were serious about 1 and 2 and they hurt your specs, we'll really try to get to this one too guys, but no promises so if you all end up being, say, assassination for a whole expac, our bad, but don't expect us to offer any compensation to the other specs or any reason for them existing.

    Shadow priests still heal when they dps, because Blizzard can hand wave and say "dps priests just do that". But even a tiny recuperate being part of our rotation for sub is not acceptable, because then we'd all play sub, right?


    DO NOT LIKE


    And we can't even be too loud about trying to get something like bladeflurry for every spec so that everyone has a dps niche, because you know all they'll do is just like delete bladeflurry, or maybe give it to windwalker monks ("Ok, all dps monks have bladeflurry. Yay, design is so easy with only one deeps spec per class!")

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The only reason I don't think it's a sky is falling thing in pvp is because GC said he'll buff us until pvp is good, even knowing that SV is terrible for it.
    That sounds nice and all until you remember that was almost a month ago and not one thing has been done to fix this issue in fact the problem has been made worse by shifting more dmg to evis.

  9. #29
    Wait, I don't follow- everyone was complaining about passive damage, and our yellow sources except backstab got buffed, including a big buff to envenom and eviscerate. How does this make the SV problem any worse? It sounds to me like this is neutral on the SV problem, and addressed to a degree the "passive" complaint.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Wait, I don't follow- everyone was complaining about passive damage, and our yellow sources except backstab got buffed, including a big buff to envenom and eviscerate. How does this make the SV problem any worse? It sounds to me like this is neutral on the SV problem, and addressed to a degree the "passive" complaint.
    Think about it, More of our dmg will be from evis. What do we have use to put up rupture, snd, recup? And the more of these we have use on things other than evis the weaker our overall dmg will be. So this sv with our main dmg from evis means it hurts our overall dmg more because of how rare using evis is in pvp. If it was like live we'd still be doing good dmg while getting all these finishers going with backstab but this the more we have to do thats not evis the more gimp we will be. So like I said the sv nerf and our dmg being put into evis makes things much worse.

    Everything else still hits for crap evis was the only thing buffed for sub.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-05-31 at 08:52 PM.

  11. #31
    The problem with the talent system is they took away too much and returned very little flavor for each spec. It indeed hurts the pure specs the most. Right now the differences between the rogue specs boil down to:

    Rotation, CP generators, energy generation and DPS cool downs.

    That I think is where the massive design mistake comes in, but enough of that general view
    .
    Talent choices:

    Tier 1 - Subterfuge will be the no brainer for PVP. Shadow Focus loses its appeal since Ambush has become the worst opener (no damage or crit modifiers for having a positioning requirement while Garrote no longer has one).

    Tier 2 - Combat Readiness and Nerve Strike are interesting choices. But! Deadly Throw will become essentially mandatory given how mobile casters are on beta, and how now a lot of melee classes can nuke from range (Ret Paladin).

    Tier 3 - Elusiveness is hands down the favorite to be used in PVP. Leeching in a PVP environement doesn't work when you are kited around, and the heal is miniscule. Shiv has a 10 sec cool down now.

    Tier 4 - Toss up between Shadow Step or Burst of Speed. It will entirely depend upon how the new "ranged" specs are balanced, because Rogues are the most vulnerable to be kited as Crip was nerfed.

    Tier 5 - I have a feeling if Tier 4 is not improved upon (BoS or Shadow Step) Deadly Brew will become mandatory. Dirty Tricks may be appealing to a Sub Rogue, but what is the point if you are being kited around by a Ret nuking you at range?

    Tier 6 - Anticipation is really bad for a PVP environment as it doesn't last long enough and Shuriken Toss is Sinister Strike at range zzzzzzzzZZZZZZ. Versatility will be the go to choice.

    In summary, Rogues need some changes to their talent trees, what is base line to separate the specs, anything, because right now the net result is they lose more MoP then they had in Cata. That is not a good feeling at all.

    *Deadly Brew will allow the use of MN as a non lethal poison and it will become very important given how mobile casters are on the beta. Being able to Shiv a super version of MN will make a huge difference in survivability or also healing output when facing casters or healers. Especially against Rets and Unholy who tend to nuke at range. o.O

  12. #32
    Ok, since the discussion is heating up (i like it) i think my point is being missed by some - i'm not saying the changes are good. Actually, i agree with many saying that we are going to have a very hard time in PvP if things stay like this. The only thing i can see atm is that devs are intentionally making sub more a pain in PvP to "force" us to play other specs.

    If you look at the basic mechanics (like i've explained above and i'm not quoting entire posts for the sake of eyes ) things don't change much - that's why PvE side sub is going to look even better. We have the tools to make target switching less of a pain, and the buffs/debuffs needed are way easier to juggle than it is now.

    But this is for PvE. For PvP, it's going to be a mess. I can understand devs' point of view since now a random bleed means we do automatically more damage. It's all about they wanting us to use rupture while we couldn't care less about it since it does ridiculous damage.
    It just seems that devs want us to decide between damage (rupture) or control (CP used for whatever else). Atm, we got all the control and get damage buff from others.

    EDIT: it's just because i've seen that everyone is looking only at the PvP side.

  13. #33
    Rogue (Forums)

    * Sinister Strike damage was increased by 30%.

    Combat

    *Revealing Strike damage was increased by 25%.
    Haha,

    seems exactly like in cata beta, rogues get nothing new or interesting, and they are done with the talent changes, now they are balancing damage. Have fun with another expansion where rogues are bullshit and get band aid fixed to the end of the content. I'm really happy i stopped playing WoW at the beginning of Cataclysm. Seems like blizzard hasn't learned anything and still thinks rogues are fine. I'm really excited to see the numbers of rogues when MoP hits and all the FotM PvP/Legendary rogues leave.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    If you look at the basic mechanics (like i've explained above and i'm not quoting entire posts for the sake of eyes ) things don't change much - that's why PvE side sub is going to look even better. We have the tools to make target switching less of a pain, and the buffs/debuffs needed are way easier to juggle than it is now.
    I don't see how making sub's target switching worse than live makes sub look better... To get Versatility we give up Anticipation which our dmg will be balanced around having.

    They've done things to help with ramp up overall but we're still the worst class in the game to ask to go burst down an add in every spec.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-01 at 01:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Findme View Post

    seems exactly like in cata beta, rogues get nothing new or interesting, and they are done with the talent changes,
    Talent changes? Nothing has changed at all on our talents all of beta lol. With fact of how hard they screwed pvp and how crappy they made the talents I'd say rogues will break records on how low of pop they will go.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    I don't see how making sub's target switching worse than live makes sub look better... To get Versatility we give up Anticipation which our dmg will be balanced around having.
    First - describe how it is worse in MoP. To me it seems we are bad as switching as now.

    Second - We aren't balanced around anticipation. It seems everyone assumes that we will get that talent nmw. It's really strong, but if a fight makes us switch every 20 seconds or so, Versatility will come out way better. it all depends on fights we haven't tested yet. Ofc Anticipation will be awesome on tank'n'spank fights, especially compared wth versatility since the latter has no use.

  16. #36
    Yes Blizzard is being inconsistent. They improved PVE target switching for Combat and Assassination, but then made it worse for Sub. Prep no longer is really appealing for Assassination for DPS, but still is for Sub.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    First - describe how it is worse in MoP. To me it seems we are bad as switching as now.

    Second - We aren't balanced around anticipation. It seems everyone assumes that we will get that talent nmw. It's really strong, but if a fight makes us switch every 20 seconds or so, Versatility will come out way better. it all depends on fights we haven't tested yet. Ofc Anticipation will be awesome on tank'n'spank fights, especially compared wth versatility since the latter has no use.
    Snd recup stay with you only need hemo to start doing dmg or someone elses bleed and if the mob dies under 30secs you don't even use rupture. Now you need to use cp's on rupture to do full dmg, cp's that would have been used on evis which is now our highest active dmg source making our dmg on fast dying mobs even worse.

    I believe we aren't balanced around Anticipation just like shadowblades 12sec duration isn't balanced around the t14 4 piece...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogaeu View Post
    i guess we have to accept that blizzard hates rogues
    Seriously? Yea, Blizzard totally hates the melee DPS class most wanted in raids for years now. I can totally see that for sure...

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Cakka View Post
    Seriously? Yea, Blizzard totally hates the melee DPS class most wanted in raids for years now. I can totally see that for sure...
    Most wanted for what, exactly? Our utility? Or our damage output that's just as competitive as many other classes and specs?
    We aren't far and away amazing at anything other than cleave for combat, which is a pretty niche advantage.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Cakka View Post
    Seriously? Yea, Blizzard totally hates the melee DPS class most wanted in raids for years now. I can totally see that for sure...
    I don't know which game you are playing about but if you meant WoW you are dead wrong. The was the most wanted melee dps maybe in burning crusade with the glaives. Since then rogues were the at least played class, even in Cata, until T13 content and the legendary daggers were introduced. The number of rogues is higher than normal at the moment, these are gamers who want a legendary and because rogues are FotM at the moment. With MoP the numbers will hit rock bottom again, rogues are getting nothin shiny for which will attract new players. The play style of all classes except rogues have evolved with every expansion, rogues' didn't they have still the same mechanics and the same boring talents. You can read a better description how rogue game play is at level 90 here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5638004892

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