I disagree. I would agree that our burst inside dance is likely too high, but that's a lot of things building up to that, including the 2pc pve bonus making ambush cost so little when those are lined up. But just because we can do damage to plate doesn't mean we are OP- it means we are working properly.rogue - with or without legendarys - simply is way too strong atm
Warriors can play two specs in pvp and pve. Mages can play three specs in pvp and two in pve. Blood DK is a bit OP in pve (feral tank/dps spec much more so, at least in 10s), but there ARE things prot warriors are better at, including a hard fight this tier (spine heroic). Rogue specs in pve are in a good place, but only sub is acceptable in pvp right now, with assassination pretty ok in RBGs and combat definitely hurting.i also would prefer to play all three speccs in PVE and PVP but which class can do so? warrior prefers Arms over Fury, Mages prefer fire over frost, guilds prefer a blood dk over a prot warrior
I disagree. The hot has several advantages that I really liked about sub:but tbh i prefer this instead of keeping up a hot on myself
2)- Target swap made easier in two ways: you bring the buff with you, and, if you don't or it runs out, you can put it up with the combo points just as your target dies, bringing the hot back to the main target with you.
3)- Long duration.
I like the current design much better than the mop one.
In pvp, as you point out, it's a pretty big deal. In pve, I think it will hurt target swap more than the current iteration, but on a single target it will be very similar.
2) it doesn't affect target swap at all. Energetic recovery is now baked into SnD and that lasts 40 second, so we bring it along us anyway and lasts longer. The damage buff is still tied to a bleed on target like it's in live - redirect+rupture takes 1gcd and we get the damage buff again (now it takes some other's gcd or an hemorrage).
3) recuperate lasts 30 seconds - snd in MoP 40 seconds. Even longer duration.
I agree that PvP side the new SV is pretty harsh and basically SV is not a good design at all. But it's not the "skyfalling scenario" that everyone is picturing out.
bandits guile not resetting on a target switch is always nice...
On live, we have two buffs, slice and recup, that we want full uptime on. If we swap to a new target, we won't rupture unless we are planning on being there I think longer than 30 seconds or something.
On beta, we have one buff and a debuff- the buff is slice, and the debuff is rupture. You calling out "redirect plus rupture takes 1 gcd" in addition to being incorrect, is also silly- the point is you have to burn 5 cp. On live, YOU DO NOT. On live it is tied to a bleed. That bleed is sometimes hemo, but much more likely to be anything our warrior puts up, or our druid if he's some kind of animal for that fight. Previously that damage would be an eviscerate and not cost a cooldown- now it's more complex and also less damage. What if you are on a target for 6 seconds, before going to the next? Previously that was no issue, now it is a big deal.
Dusting that under the rug is not fair. The new model might be ok and all, but pretending it is more or less the same as the current model, instead of a big and deliberate nerf, is dishonest and wrong.
That's kind of true, but rupture is shorter, though not by much. Remember, rupture is the slice and dice replacement. Even though it looks like the energy got put on to slice, you'll still need slice and rupture instead of slice and recup.3) recuperate lasts 30 seconds - snd in MoP 40 seconds. Even longer duration.
The only reason I don't think it's a sky is falling thing in pvp is because GC said he'll buff us until pvp is good, even knowing that SV is terrible for it. My issue is still that having the motivation to rupture targets on swap is just bad design anyway. In pvp this change is much worse. In pve it's bad, but probably able to be gotten around. This is a refreshing tier because I can make use of every spec, including my least favorite, Assassination- I'm just worried that sub's three things (survival, single target, and target swap) are being changed- single target damage is based on a LOT of things, and Blizzard can't even tell us what is meant to be top because of hybrid supremacists who destroyed the old wow forums, and the SV change absolutely does kill target short term target swap and punish medium term target swap, and Blizzard's confession that they can't balance talent trees because they somehow don't think it is possible so away they go has removed survivability from sub, along with the change that gives us a small amount of passive heal in exchange for our rotational moves.I agree that PvP side the new SV is pretty harsh and basically SV is not a good design at all. But it's not the "skyfalling scenario" that everyone is picturing out.
It really really really super feels like our spec choice was really hit hard with a new, no-holds-barred philosophy, and it really hit the pures the hardest.
1- NO PURE SPEC SHALL HAVE SURVIVAL ADVANTAGES OVER ANOTHER PURE SPEC OF THE SAME CLASS
2- NO PURE SPEC SHALL HAVE CONTROL ADVANTAGES OVER ANOTHER PURE SPEC OF THE SAME CLASS
3- Uh, all pure specs within a class are supposed to deal equal damage roughly. Since we were serious about 1 and 2 and they hurt your specs, we'll really try to get to this one too guys, but no promises so if you all end up being, say, assassination for a whole expac, our bad, but don't expect us to offer any compensation to the other specs or any reason for them existing.
Shadow priests still heal when they dps, because Blizzard can hand wave and say "dps priests just do that". But even a tiny recuperate being part of our rotation for sub is not acceptable, because then we'd all play sub, right?
DO NOT LIKE
And we can't even be too loud about trying to get something like bladeflurry for every spec so that everyone has a dps niche, because you know all they'll do is just like delete bladeflurry, or maybe give it to windwalker monks ("Ok, all dps monks have bladeflurry. Yay, design is so easy with only one deeps spec per class!")
Wait, I don't follow- everyone was complaining about passive damage, and our yellow sources except backstab got buffed, including a big buff to envenom and eviscerate. How does this make the SV problem any worse? It sounds to me like this is neutral on the SV problem, and addressed to a degree the "passive" complaint.
Everything else still hits for crap evis was the only thing buffed for sub.
Last edited by wow; 2012-05-31 at 08:52 PM.
The problem with the talent system is they took away too much and returned very little flavor for each spec. It indeed hurts the pure specs the most. Right now the differences between the rogue specs boil down to:
Rotation, CP generators, energy generation and DPS cool downs.
That I think is where the massive design mistake comes in, but enough of that general view
Tier 1 - Subterfuge will be the no brainer for PVP. Shadow Focus loses its appeal since Ambush has become the worst opener (no damage or crit modifiers for having a positioning requirement while Garrote no longer has one).
Tier 2 - Combat Readiness and Nerve Strike are interesting choices. But! Deadly Throw will become essentially mandatory given how mobile casters are on beta, and how now a lot of melee classes can nuke from range (Ret Paladin).
Tier 3 - Elusiveness is hands down the favorite to be used in PVP. Leeching in a PVP environement doesn't work when you are kited around, and the heal is miniscule. Shiv has a 10 sec cool down now.
Tier 4 - Toss up between Shadow Step or Burst of Speed. It will entirely depend upon how the new "ranged" specs are balanced, because Rogues are the most vulnerable to be kited as Crip was nerfed.
Tier 5 - I have a feeling if Tier 4 is not improved upon (BoS or Shadow Step) Deadly Brew will become mandatory. Dirty Tricks may be appealing to a Sub Rogue, but what is the point if you are being kited around by a Ret nuking you at range?
Tier 6 - Anticipation is really bad for a PVP environment as it doesn't last long enough and Shuriken Toss is Sinister Strike at range zzzzzzzzZZZZZZ. Versatility will be the go to choice.
In summary, Rogues need some changes to their talent trees, what is base line to separate the specs, anything, because right now the net result is they lose more MoP then they had in Cata. That is not a good feeling at all.
*Deadly Brew will allow the use of MN as a non lethal poison and it will become very important given how mobile casters are on the beta. Being able to Shiv a super version of MN will make a huge difference in survivability or also healing output when facing casters or healers. Especially against Rets and Unholy who tend to nuke at range. o.O
Ok, since the discussion is heating up (i like it) i think my point is being missed by some - i'm not saying the changes are good. Actually, i agree with many saying that we are going to have a very hard time in PvP if things stay like this. The only thing i can see atm is that devs are intentionally making sub more a pain in PvP to "force" us to play other specs.
If you look at the basic mechanics (like i've explained above and i'm not quoting entire posts for the sake of eyes ) things don't change much - that's why PvE side sub is going to look even better. We have the tools to make target switching less of a pain, and the buffs/debuffs needed are way easier to juggle than it is now.
But this is for PvE. For PvP, it's going to be a mess. I can understand devs' point of view since now a random bleed means we do automatically more damage. It's all about they wanting us to use rupture while we couldn't care less about it since it does ridiculous damage.
It just seems that devs want us to decide between damage (rupture) or control (CP used for whatever else). Atm, we got all the control and get damage buff from others.
EDIT: it's just because i've seen that everyone is looking only at the PvP side.
* Sinister Strike damage was increased by 30%.
*Revealing Strike damage was increased by 25%.
seems exactly like in cata beta, rogues get nothing new or interesting, and they are done with the talent changes, now they are balancing damage. Have fun with another expansion where rogues are bullshit and get band aid fixed to the end of the content. I'm really happy i stopped playing WoW at the beginning of Cataclysm. Seems like blizzard hasn't learned anything and still thinks rogues are fine. I'm really excited to see the numbers of rogues when MoP hits and all the FotM PvP/Legendary rogues leave.
They've done things to help with ramp up overall but we're still the worst class in the game to ask to go burst down an add in every spec.
---------- Post added 2012-06-01 at 01:37 AM ----------
Second - We aren't balanced around anticipation. It seems everyone assumes that we will get that talent nmw. It's really strong, but if a fight makes us switch every 20 seconds or so, Versatility will come out way better. it all depends on fights we haven't tested yet. Ofc Anticipation will be awesome on tank'n'spank fights, especially compared wth versatility since the latter has no use.
Yes Blizzard is being inconsistent. They improved PVE target switching for Combat and Assassination, but then made it worse for Sub. Prep no longer is really appealing for Assassination for DPS, but still is for Sub.
I believe we aren't balanced around Anticipation just like shadowblades 12sec duration isn't balanced around the t14 4 piece...