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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Findme View Post
    The number of rogues is higher than normal at the moment, these are gamers who want a legendary and because rogues are FotM at the moment. With MoP the numbers will hit rock bottom again, rogues are getting nothin shiny for which will attract new players.
    It should be added that even as "FotM" we're still second lowest pop class just 1% over warlocks lol.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    It should be added that even as "FotM" we're still second lowest pop class just 1% over warlocks lol.
    pls stop using that "we are the class least played"-statement as an argument for your opinion that rogues are in a very bad shape... for one, it's no argument at all and for another it only proves, that you actually have no clue about statistiks...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogaeu View Post
    pls stop using that "we are the class least played"-statement as an argument for your opinion that rogues are in a very bad shape...
    Who said anything about that being the reason? This is the only thing all thread I've said on this so not me.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogaeu View Post
    pls stop using that "we are the class least played"-statement as an argument for your opinion that rogues are in a very bad shape... for one, it's no argument at all and for another it only proves, that you actually have no clue about statistiks...
    if you want to talk statistics, it is safe to assume that based on the number of players (= sample size), the standard deviation is low enough to have a meanigful discussion around the numbers.
    If all classes were equally fun/popular to play you would have something around 10% representation for all classes, especially with this large player base.
    Since that is not the case, I think we can safely assume some classes are a lot more popular than others, and the number of representation shows which classes are not popular to play.
    There must be a reason why rogues are not popular (their numbers are lower), and I think it is because of their gameplay.

    Most changes in the beta right now are QoL changes and for PvE rogues they are a welcome change:
    Deadly poison stacking and Bandit's Guile on the player enables us to better target swap, but we still have restrictions in the form of Combopoints and a debuff to apply (Rupture for Assass and Sub spec)
    Anticipation is a talent that is good against combo point waste.

    Combat Potency was changed for the better, but we are still held back from using slow OH because of the poison changes. I still have no idea why they haven't changed that to be PPM too...
    When I compare my talents to other classes, rogues come out very pale in comparison. (especially when looking at the level 90 ones)
    Sub was gutted, and there is no clear difference anymore between specs that define their uniqueness. (except for a bit better aoe in Assass spec, and a cleave in combat spec)

    The only thing I am really looking forward to is the crimson tempest ability, which should bring our AoE in the neighborhood of other classes.

    Shuriken toss: while you actually need 2 talent points to make this effective, I have no problem with that, we are a melee class after all.

    Nightstalker: no idea why that talent is there
    Preparation: why not reduce the CD of the affected ability and come up with something interesting?

    To summarize: rogues don't get worse for the specs/playstyle I prefer, but the improvements are in QoL, whil I would have wanted there to be new gameplay changes, something completely different for a change.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    if you want to talk statistics, it is safe to assume that based on the number of players (= sample size), the standard deviation is low enough to have a meanigful discussion around the numbers.
    If all classes were equally fun/popular to play you would have something around 10% representation for all classes, especially with this large player base.
    Since that is not the case, I think we can safely assume some classes are a lot more popular than others, and the number of representation shows which classes are not popular to play.
    There must be a reason why rogues are not popular (their numbers are lower), and I think it is because of their gameplay.
    this ofc might sound logic, but speaking as an mathematician now i can ensure you, that it is not. unfortunately my english is not good enough to explain it exactly.
    but here are some facts:
    - dks falsify the statistics as they were introduced 3 years after wow-launch. so its not remarkable that many players tried the new class. furthermore it starts at lvl 55. i e.g. just leveled a dk because i didnt want to start from lvl 1 but i wanted to try a new class. and after i had a class at lvl 80 i also leveled them to lvl 85 when cata came out, no matter if i really play them now or not
    - i have about 6 alts. but the only class i really play is a rogue. its the same for many players. just because the e.g. have a lvl 85 mage, it doesn't mean, that they regularly play it or that they even enjoy the class
    - i got many friends who e.g. have a hunter on our realm and two more on other realms. so that's 1 player playing 3 times his favorite class
    - early cata raids really favored ranges. many players rerolled from melee to range. this was because of boss design, not because of the class
    - you have to decide between range and melee. as already stated, ranges really were better at the beginning. after that, range legendary was introduced, which makes many players stay/reroll a range class. the rogue class was hit by that circumstances more than other melees, as e.g. shamys can go ele then or be a healer, rogues however did not have this possibility
    - many players also chose a class because of the lore it offers. be a mighty mage throwing around with fire and frost-bolts? transforming into a big bear or a crow? a rogue has nothing "flashy" to offer. thats the intend of the class.


    in the other points i agree with you. i welcome the QoL-changes, but would also prefer some kind of new mechanic or so. nevertheless i still enjoy playing rogue more than other classes. just did DS yesterday as warri-dd. its also 4 buttons, if something flashes up, push it... not really interesting at all. and as arms i have really bad cds... its no different with other classes and except of a few classes, that really had to be overworked, others dont get that much new things, too... blizzards intend was to overwork the talentSYSTEM, not to give every class 18 new talents...
    so, im fine with it.

    ah, and nearly forgot it:
    @ wow: this argument about class representation come up in nearly every thread that has been opened the last few weeks... i was not only addressing you, its about everyone using this "argument"...
    Last edited by Rogaeu; 2012-06-05 at 04:16 PM.

  6. #46
    Preparation: why not reduce the CD of the affected ability and come up with something interesting?
    I gotta keep calling this fallacy out every time I see it.

    The fact that you COULD spec prep doesn't mean that, if it were deleted, you would get shorter cooldowns.

    Ok? Does that make sense? Prep being in your tree isn't why vanish is three minutes. Most rogues won't be picking prep for a lot of the comps anyway, so obviously it wouldn't be fair to make their cooldowns long because of a move that they don't have.

    Prep is interesting. Prep is fun. No, it shouldn't be in the tree like it is. Personally, I'd like it to be baseline and banned in arena. It seems odd to put it in the mobility tier, and it will only be taken in comps that have a guaranteed early gib or supporting grips or something.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I gotta keep calling this fallacy out every time I see it.

    The fact that you COULD spec prep doesn't mean that, if it were deleted, you would get shorter cooldowns.

    Ok? Does that make sense? Prep being in your tree isn't why vanish is three minutes. Most rogues won't be picking prep for a lot of the comps anyway, so obviously it wouldn't be fair to make their cooldowns long because of a move that they don't have.

    Prep is interesting. Prep is fun. No, it shouldn't be in the tree like it is. Personally, I'd like it to be baseline and banned in arena. It seems odd to put it in the mobility tier, and it will only be taken in comps that have a guaranteed early gib or supporting grips or something.
    I didn't say the cooldowns are there because of preparation or that they would have been shorter if we never had Preparation.

    I just said that Preparation seems like a talent that is gimmicky and that i.m.o it is better to remove it, and to compensate for those people that do pick it (I guess mainly PvP players?) the cooldown could be reduced, so that you (sort of) get baseline what preparation would do. (or maybe don't reduce it to half, but some reduction at least)
    In PvE, the cooldowns mentioned don't do very much in terms of DPS anyway (except in heavy movement fights).
    It would mainly be a PvP thing I think.
    Or, like you said, make it baseline. At least for Sub specs.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    I didn't say the cooldowns are there because of preparation or that they would have been shorter if we never had Preparation.
    And that is incorrect.

    On live, combat and assassination have a three minute vanish, unless they go deep (for them) into sub and get a 2 minute vanish. Since neither C nor A have prep, I'd say this is pretty invalid.

    I just said that Preparation seems like a talent that is gimmicky and that i.m.o it is better to remove it, and to compensate for those people that do pick it (I guess mainly PvP players?) the cooldown could be reduced, so that you (sort of) get baseline what preparation would do. (or maybe don't reduce it to half, but some reduction at least)
    I think your idea is awful. I know some rogues don't like prep, but I very much do. It's not gimmicky, it's friggin powerful and awesome and I love it.

    Or, like you said, make it baseline. At least for Sub specs.
    A baseline prep would have to be banned in arena or much weaker than the beta one (say vanish and sprint only). I'd be fine with either solution, and then they could put a mobility talent on that tier. It's frustrating because the cool things they COULD have given us for gap closers were slowly doled out to the late coming classes, but whatever.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    And that is incorrect.

    On live, combat and assassination have a three minute vanish, unless they go deep (for them) into sub and get a 2 minute vanish. Since neither C nor A have prep, I'd say this is pretty invalid.
    You still haven’t invalidated my point (of not saying it would be shorter)

    My statement “Preparation: why not reduce the CD of the affected ability and come up with something interesting?”
    Is not the same as : “right now the cooldowns are longer because this talent exists”
    I just tried to come up with an alternative for Preparation if it were to be removed.

    On live, you cannot go that far into the sub tree if you have chosen A or C since you need 21 points in Sub and you only have 10 to spare.
    That is what you said, but I wasn’t trying to prove the opposite, not at all.
    I am very aware that Preparation on live is a Sub only ability.

    I was talking about what it could be in MoP, where we do have it available for all three specs.
    In a raiding environment: when will we need this talent?
    In movement heavy fights you will take one of the other 2, depending on the frequency of movements.

    Preparation: outside the use of a vanish in Sub specs, the only good ability that is CD reduced is Cloak of shadows, and I don’t believe fights will be designed around the need for an extra CoS.
    The cooldown on sprint is not very useful since sprint is on a rather short CD anyways, and you have the other 2 talents to cover that.

    I do see the merits of the talent for PvP though where it has a lot more use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    I think your idea is awful. I know some rogues don't like prep, but I very much do. It's not gimmicky, it's friggin powerful and awesome and I love it.
    Well I don’t play PvP so that might be where our disagreement lies.
    But hey, we can disagree without any problem, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    A baseline prep would have to be banned in arena or much weaker than the beta one (say vanish and sprint only). I'd be fine with either solution, and then they could put a mobility talent on that tier. It's frustrating because the cool things they COULD have given us for gap closers were slowly doled out to the late coming classes, but whatever.
    True, a baseline Prep like it is now in the talent tree might be too powerful for PvP, but that can be tweaked. Like you said.
    I do like the choice between the other 2 though: instant movement but at the cost of a CD vs one that you can always use, but which is slower than the instant move. There should be a third choice along that line. Preparation does not belong there. Although one can argue that it does influence mobility by its Sprint CD reduction.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  10. #50
    I would say that the second vanish is a big piece of the mobility offered by prep, along with the second sprint.

    Without improved sprint, sprint is a strange gap closer. It doesn't function when you are snared, and it has a pretty long cooldown. It is often used to escape, or in combination with vanish to escape or attack.

    With improved sprint, sprint is a amazing gap closer at about 10-18 yards, and longer versus classes that aren't mages. Most rogues nowadays don't run "mobility shadowstep"- basically you spec sub and then put points into combat for improved sprint- but if you DO try that out, you'll see that you have really amazing uptime with both improved sprint and shadowstep as medium cooldowns, then vanish, prep, and all that stuff again. But your damage is unquestionably lacking in that department, and I wouldn't recommend that for serious rated pvp. But you won't be kited much in a reg BG by a bad BM hunter, and that's something!

    These are the kinds of choices that the destruction of the talent trees eliminates, and that's sad too.


    Long ago, I suggested we get scorpion's "get over here" as an optional gap closer, probably for assassination. Then, out of nowhere, a new plate class came along with that ability baseline. I've also long suggested a ninja roll to close gaps. It took them long enough, but they finally made the monk to take that one too. So, come up with a cool gap closer, but expect it to go to some new melee class in two years!

    :P

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    So, come up with a cool gap closer, but expect it to go to some new melee class in two years!

    :P
    Im starting to regret my WoW forums thread Inviting Suggestions for a gap closer now.......nice ideas.....but suspect Im doing unpaid work for Blizzard....

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    Long ago, I suggested we get scorpion's "get over here" as an optional gap closer, probably for assassination. Then, out of nowhere, a new plate class came along with that ability baseline. I've also long suggested a ninja roll to close gaps. It took them long enough, but they finally made the monk to take that one too. So, come up with a cool gap closer, but expect it to go to some new melee class in two years!:P
    we can laugh about it, but actually it is a sad thing to see every good idea the rogue community comes up with go to other classes (in an better version even), while the developers themselves don't seem to have much imagination left to come up with something new.

    some ideas: finishers that cost a fixed amount of combopoints (i.e. no longer duration per CP, or more damage) or that has a maximum CP cost. Right now a finisher means: spend all your combopoints on something.
    You could approach this tactically: suppose you have 5CP, and you are facing 2 opponents. Do you unleash 5CP with finisher 1, or do you spend 2 CP for an attack on each opponent with finisher 2?

    As for the mobility tier: why not have something in between shadowstep and BoS:
    "A small step for man" : you take a leap of 15 yards. costs 30 energy. cooldown 10s"

    This is just some idea, and it will probably get nuked to the ground by people who make that into a daily job without coming up with something themselves, but at least it is an idea that maybe is useful to inspire people to come up with something else, or to expand upon.
    But I guess they will give it to the druids
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    "A small step for man" : you take a leap of 15 yards. costs 30 energy. cooldown 10s"
    Monks already got that idea its called roll. But its free and has multiple charges...
    Last edited by wow; 2012-06-07 at 05:12 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Monks already got that idea its called roll. But its free and has multiple charges...
    If I were to speculate Blizz considers stealth part of the mobility toolkit of Rogues. This possibly explains why Nightstalker as a talent exists. If that is the case, then, they should seriously consider lowering the cool down on Vanish from 3 minutes to 1 minute.

    I also think the lowered cool down of Vanish for Sub Rogues would really make it a difference experience from Combat PVE playstyle. Right now, Sub plays too much like Combat-lite on the MoP. I wasn't convinced when people were stating this but I tried it out myself and sadly it is true.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2012-06-07 at 05:41 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    If I were to speculate Blizz considers stealth part of the mobility toolkit of Rogues. This possibly explains why Nightstalker as a talent exists. If that is the case, then, they should seriously consider lowering the cool down on Vanish from 3 minutes to 1 minute.

    I also think the lowered cool down of Vanish for Sub Rogues would really make it a difference experience from Combat PVE playstyle. Right now, Sub plays too much like Combat-lite on the MoP. I wasn't convinced when people were stating this but I tried it out myself and sadly it is true.
    Who knows what they consider the mobility toolkit of Rogues to be. Priests get 30sec cd vanish we get a 3min cd who knows whats going on there. If stealth is our mobility Nightstalker should be baseline with 30sec cd vanishes.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Monks already got that idea its called roll. But its free and has multiple charges...
    So? does that mean rogues cannot get it as a talent?
    Like I said: use it, extend on it, change it with the purpose of coming up with something...
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    So? does that mean rogues cannot get it as a talent?
    Like I said: use it, extend on it, change it with the purpose of coming up with something...
    Doesn't mean rogues can't it means it very likely not to.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
    So? does that mean rogues cannot get it as a talent?
    Like I said: use it, extend on it, change it with the purpose of coming up with something...
    Yes, it means rogues cannot get it as a talent.

    Thus far the only gap closers that are allowed to be copies are on the ferals, because druids figured out how to copy all the melee classes (they should get back on that- there's a lot of new melee classes- hell, paladins have counted as one since BC, get on it, druid council, you obviously need a Dire Weasel form with runic power!)


    But Blizzard is very worried that the gap closers will feel familiar or something, so they are all different.

    Maybe, since the hunters aren't using it any more, we could get that Crouching Tiger Hidden Seriously How Often Can You Disengage mechanic, where every time we get hit with a ranged effect, the cooldown on shadowstep shrinks by X seconds.

  19. #59
    I wouldnt give so much about balance right now, neither in pve nor pvp. The final game will be different anyway
    ~

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharlok View Post
    I wouldnt give so much about balance right now, neither in pve nor pvp. The final game will be different anyway
    You have no idea what you are talking about. The beta is a big indicator how the class will pan out at release, look at the last beta phases of rogues, they didn't get any attention or changes, some weapon damage percents are changed and that's it. Rogues are ALWAYS shafted at betas, and this beta it is not different. Have a look at the beta builds, when was the last beta build where rogues got a change or an update? Stop posting, beta is beta and that type of crap, beta is meant for testing out new mechanics, but you can't test anything when there is no change. The some old crap since burning crusade. Rogues shouldn't be ok with getting band aid fixed after the release of an expansion with patch 5.1 or 5.2 like it was in Cataclysm or in WotLK.

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