Jaina's Newfound Hatred of the Horde

[ragemv]

Yeah, what is she going to do, burn some orcs? I am ok with that.

that's just it, for it is not like she can do anything major in game, for if so she will be a boss and then she will be easly killable after 4 weeks, or is she in a quest, if so, how will the horde player survive if she want to kill the player, or is she going to be in some alliance event where they charge a camp or city and then she blast a few hordes. For that is the problem with balanceing ingame and books, for in game is hard to get the same "Ultimate mage" power feeling, for players will just be " lol only 2 milions HP, bosses in cata had more" while in a book, some, if not most people will then miss what happens to her, and then she will just be, before she was in that tower now she is here/or dead

[Zaelsino]

Interesting worldview.

The only thing you'll gleam about my worldview from an Alliance/Horde debate is that I prefer monarchies to perennial regency. <.<

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens? Jaime Lannister attacking Stark men outside the- no, wait... My point being, there is no Pearl Harbor here. There's a lot of random skirmishes that neither side gives any real support or muscle to, and they're universally treated as isolated incidents. You could chalk the Wrathgate up to it, I suppose, but we all know how that ended – with Varian trying to kill Thrall and making a proper declaration of renewed conflict.

And just to nitpick, since the quests never make it clear, here's how Blizzard describe the Vengeance Landing quests:

The very first Horde quest chain in Vengeance Landing sees you fighting off an Alliance ambush. Your first job is to visit a line of gunners, popping off shots at a small Alliance camp. The Horde soldiers aren't making any progress, because of the cannons perched atop the fortifications. To help the infantry, you're sent by bat to the navy, under attack offshore. The Horde sailors are suffering under the same ambush - your second quest is to clear their decks to make room for the support guns to fire. The last part: back to dry land, and a quest to drop flares on the Alliance defences, to aid the sighting of those naval guns.[1]

Horde aggression right there, eh?

[Wopotter]

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens?

What started it is not relevant to me as long as you admit that there was war before Varian clashed with Thrall in Undercity. But I would indeed put it on the Warsong and Thralls unwillingness to remove them from Ashenvale. What was mainly a Human/Orc-Conflict prior to that became an Alliance/Horde-conflict by dragging the Nightelves into it. They probably would not have cared and stayed neutral if the Humans and the Orcs had kept their feud to themselves. So the agression by the Orcs drove them into the arms of the humans and when the humans were finally willing to talk peace (which ended with Varian being enslaved by Orcs) the Horde-Alliance conflict was kept alive by the Orc-Nightelf-fighting.

And just to nitpick, since the quests never make it clear, here's how Blizzard describe the Vengeance Landing quests:
Horde aggression right there, eh?

If you actually read the Quests: it looks that way. The Horde attacked an Alliance Fleet prior to the beginning of the Questline and were then themselves ambushed by the relief forces that came to the aid of the Alliance survivors. There even is a quest that is called "Ambushed" - so that is what Blizzard was referring to.

[Fahrenheit]

I just want Malfurion to come back to the Alliance and do some wild ass Arch Druid type shit in Ashenvale to the horde forces now that Rag and DW are taken care of.

He could just wave his hand and like a million roots pop out and choke every horde member in sight and then suck them down into the ground (hopefully while still conscious) turning them into crude fertilizer to help regrow all the shit they chopped down.

[Trassk]

I just want Malfurion to come back to the Alliance and do some wild ass Arch Druid type shit in Ashenvale to the horde forces now that Rag and DW are taken care of.

He could just wave his hand and like a million roots pop out and choke every horde member in sight and then suck them down into the ground (hopefully while still conscious) turning them into crude fertilizer to help regrow all the shit they chopped down.

See, thats the difference between insane and douchebag characters that would do that, and other characters that would seek to find a better means. They kill a few orcs, and a dozen more come back, and it achieves nothing.

Thats why characters like Malfurion, Thrall and Tirion are assured characters, because there true good guys, well ones like Garrosh and sylvanas was easily corruptible, just like Arthas and Illidan were, and we know what happened to them.

[Verdugo]

I just want Malfurion to come back to the Alliance and do some wild ass Arch Druid type shit in Ashenvale to the horde forces now that Rag and DW are taken care of.

He could just wave his hand and like a million roots pop out and choke every horde member in sight and then suck them down into the ground (hopefully while still conscious) turning them into crude fertilizer to help regrow all the shit they chopped down.

Like that pathetic senile meatbag could even do something like that, all he could do since he was introduced in w3 was summonning trees and wisps and rooting random characters for questioning. Dont overestimate druids, they fall by dozens every day while defending critters and flowers.

[ragemv]

Like that pathetic senile meatbag could even do something like that, all he could do since he was introduced in w3 was summonning trees and wisps and rooting random characters for questioning. Dont overestimate druids, they fall by dozens every day while defending critters and flowers.

I really, really think you dont know anything about his lore, he is said to be the strongest mortal, stronger then thrall or jaina, so no he is not just a meatbag who just can summon trees.

[Combatbulter]

I really, really think you dont know anything about his lore, he is said to be the strongest mortal, stronger then thrall or jaina, so no he is not just a meatbag who just can summon trees.

Yet druidism isn't as powerful as most assume it has it's clear boundaries, just like shamanism. For example if a druid heals, lorewise he takes life from his suroundings to heal someone, several miles of land died to heal Korialsztrasz.

[Chrom]

As a character I always respected and liked very much, I was also always somewhat disturbed by her tolerance for the horde. It shouldn't be this way, she must hate horde like every normal Alliance character/player. I'm long since quit WoW but I'm keeping a close eye on her and hoping one day she'd also become absolutely badass in addition to her sexy looks. I want to see her kicking some whorde ass, and I mean literary. I want her to put a serious waste to horde, hopefully even kill few notable horde characters in the process or at least kick some sylvanas or other crap's ass.

[ragemv]

Yet druidism isn't as powerful as most assume it has it's clear boundaries, just like shamanism. For example if a druid heals, lorewise he takes life from his suroundings to heal someone, several miles of land died to heal Korialsztrasz.

With this your are right that druidism power, is not a strong as the raw power as a mage, but druidsm power at his level is really really strong, if you read wolfheart, Because he wanted people to stop there yelling in a instant he made lightning strike around him, and in war of the ancient, he was a great help, so he is still in so many ways more then just a meatbag, for yes raw druid power is not as effectiv as a mages, but on his level, he is also very offensiv with lightning, Entangling Roots, hurricanes.

[Frontenac]

Faulty comparison (that's being kind) aside, it's irrelevant. The Horde and Alliance have been in a state of cold war since vanilla, and these skirmishes have been present since day one. It wasn't escalated to "official war" until Varian directly assaulted and tried to kill the leader of the Horde, and made his "disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves" manifesto crystal clear for the world to see. That is treated in-verse as the point of clear reference for straight up faction war. None of what you cited is.

It's that simple, whether you think it's fair or not. I can definitely see where Varian's coming from, personally. He has a very legitimate gripe with the Horde, and was fairly justified in making the unofficial official. But make no mistake: kicking it into full throttle was on his head, right until he retracted it and signed a truce with Thrall.

On another note, what John Doe the Forsaken says and does is not equal in weight and consequence to what Varian Wrynn the military leader of the Alliance says and does.

With that reasoning, the responsibility of WWII is on the head of Churchill and Daladier when they officially declared war on Germany.

[Combatbulter]

The only thing you'll gleam about my worldview from an Alliance/Horde debate is that I prefer monarchies to perennial regency. <.<

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens? Jaime Lannister attacking Stark men outside the- no, wait... My point being, there is no Pearl Harbor here. There's a lot of random skirmishes that neither side gives any real support or muscle to, and they're universally treated as isolated incidents. You could chalk the Wrathgate up to it, I suppose, but we all know how that ended – with Varian trying to kill Thrall and making a proper declaration of renewed conflict.

With that reasoning, the responsibility of WWII is on the head of Churchill and Daladier when they officially declared war on Germany.

We have a better situation right now actually. A western nation is using drones to kill citizens of another country, still those two are not at war right now.

In fact they are still "allies".

[Fahrenheit]

I highly recommend you significantly change your wording if not our right deleting that post Combatbulter or this thread will derail.

[Combatbulter]

I highly recommend you significantly change your wording if not our right deleting that post Combatbulter or this thread will derail.

I did change the wording but it still doesn't change the fact unless the governments of nations declare war than there is no war so to speak, just skirmishes.

[Urti]

I highly recommend you significantly change your wording if not our right deleting that post Combatbulter or this thread will derail.

I think he's counting on it derailing at this point. That's one of the great fail-flails of the intewebs. If you are starting to lose ground in a valid argument, quickly change course to an unrelated divisive topic. Suggestions include, but not limited to; American tyranny and it's "evils", Hitler, video-game console wars, Europe is a socialist wonderland without flaw, and your mom.

[Pandadin]

She should definitely get into a bad mood. She needs to show the horde that you don't mess with the most powerful mage in the land!

[jotabe]

Yet druidism isn't as powerful as most assume it has it's clear boundaries, just like shamanism. For example if a druid heals, lorewise he takes life from his suroundings to heal someone, several miles of land died to heal Korialsztrasz.

Just to nitpick: the druid doesn't take the life away from the surroundings to heal, the druid pleades to the lifeforms near to give a small amount of their lifeform to perform the healing. The lifeforms accept depending on the druish-righteousness of the cause, the atuning to nature of the pleader and the eagerness of the plea. In normal wounds, no plant really has to die. Korialstrasz was more dead than alive, and his lifeforce was enormous, but the plants around Malfurion were so moved by his desire to heal the dragon that they gave themselves.

I wanted to say this because with that wording it looks like the druids can steal life from one being to give it to another.

[RyanEX]

Skirmishes are one thing. But the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas is a far cry from a skirmish since it involves attempting, not attempting to grab some obscure piece of land, but the capital and entirety of territory of another faction.

Same thing with the Ashenvale invasion. A leader could always deny knowledge or involvement in a clash between small forces (Thrall's been doing it since launch). But when you have said faction leader at the forefront of a battle in another's territory you don't need to say anything. That is a clear declaration of war.

[Dreknar20]

The only thing you'll gleam about my worldview from an Alliance/Horde debate is that I prefer monarchies to perennial regency. <.<

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens? Jaime Lannister attacking Stark men outside the- no, wait... My point being, there is no Pearl Harbor here. There's a lot of random skirmishes that neither side gives any real support or muscle to, and they're universally treated as isolated incidents. You could chalk the Wrathgate up to it, I suppose, but we all know how that ended – with Varian trying to kill Thrall and making a proper declaration of renewed conflict.

And just to nitpick, since the quests never make it clear, here's how Blizzard describe the Vengeance Landing quests:



Horde aggression right there, eh?

You cant pin the blame for an entire war on only one race or one faction
Both sides are guilty of creating hostility and dis-trust between the races and nations

[Talen]

Yet, it's the first time that Horde and Alliance fight each other directly. Indication of war.

Alterac Valley. Arathi Basin. Eye of the Storm. Warsong Gulch.

These don't count? The fighting in GH and ICC is no worse than the fighting that came before in previous Xpacs. Yes...Varian committed an act of war. The question is...did war follow? And it doesn't seem that is the case. Whatever Varian said or did, it appears to have resulted in no armies being moved, no sieges being initiated, no conflicts begun, no navies unleashed. It resulted in zero quests, zero impact to the story. It had no ramifications, no consequences. It could have had that effect....but the act doesn't have to escalate into the state of war. Thrall certainly had an excuse to retaliate..except he didn't want to. And Varian appears to have done nothing to follow up. Tensions rose, cooperation was broken off but an actual state of war?

Regardless....we've had this discussion before, we'll no doubt have it again (unless the next novel spells things out) but this isn't the thread for it.

EJL