Jaina's Newfound Hatred of the Horde

[Combatbutler]

So basically he screwed over his allys, his people and his kid too. Graymane is a dumbass.

He was simply a very proud nationalist, like Anasterian ;P

Though the elves at least helped Lordaeron during Wc3, while Greymane blatantly ignored their pleas for help.

[Trassk]

The whole greymane story is a joke, as said, he was a nationalist who abandoned the alliance because he didn't agree with there terms, and then so many years later all thats meant to be forgotten and lets all shake hands.

You lot talk about how the concepts of peace can't happen in wow, but it seems all it takes it forgetting details of the past nobody is interested in anymore, and doom, you got a story.

[Combatbutler]

The whole greymane story is a joke, as said, he was a nationalist who abandoned the alliance because he didn't agree with there terms, and then so many years later all thats meant to be forgotten and lets all shake hands.

You lot talk about how the concepts of peace can't happen in wow, but it seems all it takes it forgetting details of the past nobody is interested in anymore, and doom, you got a story.

Peace is possible but no lasting peace it is just like the real world, it is a matter of conflicting interests, who knows what factions will be on Azeroth in a thousand years, Dwarves may have become staunch allies to the Orcs. Trolls would side with humans etc. the world is constantly changing and conflict is a part of life.

[Evilfish]

Oh he paid, he fought a civil war, unleashed the worgen curse upon his people, which almost sacked his homeland and the remainings were devastated by the Horde offensive, which cost him his son and he had to crawl back to the very alliance he once despised.



I said several times I don't blame him for going to war, he just fights the war very cruel.

No, if we are gonna use proper therms, the Forsaken fight cruel. The Belfs fight cruel. Orcs and Garrosh fight with some degree of honor. And point me towards a real or fabricated war that isn't cruel.

[Trassk]

Peace is possible but no lasting peace it is just like the real world, it is a matter of conflicting interests, who knows what factions will be on Azeroth in a thousand years, Dwarves may have become staunch allies to the Orcs. Trolls would side with humans etc. the world is constantly changing and conflict is a part of life.

Well since using real war as an example, heres the truth of the matter.

A war is not something that lasts. Due to lose of life, rations and money, wars come to an end and the one that wins are the ones that walk away with the spoils.

Some might think because its a game a war can last forever, but if you want realism in a war setting, your just have to accept the facts a war like the one in wow can only have one decent outcome, with the war just ending, not with one side completely annihilating the other, because as much as whatever bias fanboy you all might be, thats just not gonna happen.

And well horde and alliance might just hate each other still by the end of it, all there be able to do is agree to a cold war status and walk away.. unless you want there to be lasting peace, thats all your gonna get.

[Combatbutler]

No, if we are gonna use proper therms, the Forsaken fight cruel. The Belfs fight cruel. Orcs and Garrosh fight with some degree of honor. And point me towards a real or fabricated war that isn't cruel.

The forsaken fight not just cruel they fight inhumane ;p

Yea belfs fight cruel, but some degree of honor does not really exist, either you have honor or you don't the only being in warcraft that truly fought with honor no matter the cost is Tirion and that almost doomed Azeroth.

I never said war isn't cruel, but he could wage it differently, you know taking over the cities annex the territorries, trying to assimlate the next generation into the Horde.

---------- Post added 2012-06-05 at 06:18 PM ----------

Well since using real war as an example, heres the truth of the matter.

A war is not something that lasts. Due to lose of life, rations and money, wars come to an end and the one that wins are the ones that walk away with the spoils.

Some might think because its a game a war can last forever, but if you want realism in a war setting, your just have to accept the facts a war like the one in wow can only have one decent outcome, with the war just ending, not with one side completely annihilating the other, because as much as whatever bias fanboy you all might be, thats just not gonna happen.

And well horde and alliance might just hate each other still by the end of it, all there be able to do is agree to a cold war status and walk away.. unless you want there to be lasting peace, thats all your gonna get.

The problem is the technological level of azeroth it is almost impossible for one side to truly defeat the other, they might destroy their capitals but to fully subdue the enemy is almost impossible, unless you have an army of the size of the burning legion, otherwise the enemy can recover and unleash its wrath upon you once more, prime example for this would be the troll wars.

A good comparisson would be the hundred years war between England and France and despite all that they are allies today.

[Evilfish]

The forsaken fight not just cruel they fight inhumane ;p

Yea belfs fight cruel, but some degree of honor does not really exist, either you have honor or you don't the only being in warcraft that truly fought with honor no matter the cost is Tirion and that almost doomed Azeroth.

I never said war isn't cruel, but he could wage it differently, you know taking over the cities annex the territorries, trying to assimlate the next generation into the Horde.[COLOR="red"]

I think they are saving that kind of warfare for Thrall the nice orc. Garrosh is a racist, let's face it, if he dind't need the forsaken and the belfs he'd kill em himself. So his a prick, I don't think anyone can deny that, but TBH he's a breath of fresh air next to the perfects that seem to overflow the lore lately.

[Arthur-the-exalted]

If you think that then you understand nothing about orcs or there lore. Really, just stop.

lol, tell me what honor is there in protecting an ally such as the forsaken? hmmm? and I know enough about lore to step up to any argument, and the fact that you can even say what you said just proves your own ignorance, I will be the first to say the horde has many races that are honorable, but hellscream is not one, and thrall backing the undead is also not an honorable move...the forsaken are the enemys of anything alive, and if you cant UNDERSTAND THAT!! then you just need to stop!

[Combatbutler]

lol, tell me what honor is there in protecting an ally such as the forsaken? hmmm? and I know enough about lore to step up to any argument, and the fact that you can even say what you said just proves your own ignorance, I will be the first to say the horde has many races that are honorable, but hellscream is not one, and thrall backing the undead is also not an honorable move...the forsaken are the enemys of anything alive, and if you cant UNDERSTAND THAT!! then you just need to stop!

Not necessarily, they tolerate those who stand with them, or who are not in their way though. As long as you don't cross them and not the target of their never ending hatred they will most likely leave you alone.

[Arthur-the-exalted]

What does it matter if Orgrimmar burns or not, the orcs could endure its loss, it would make them only more dangerous, more viciouss, just look at what happened to most of the High elves after they pushed pushed to the brink, they forsake most of their honor for survival. Honor is all fine and dandy as long as you can afford it, if you are in such deep shit it is either Honor or the survival of your people, survival is the only path for you to take even though you stain your hands with blood of innocents, it doesn't matter as long as your children may see another day.

The children live to see another day thanks to the alliance being honorable and not some blood thirty killer like hellscream, king varian who hates the orcs more than anyhting is even stated in the raid on orgrimmar to spare the children and other....did hellscream ever do the same? no, orcs should be less viciouss if anything by this turn of events, it shows that our side is atleast willing to let you live and strive for peace..

[Combatbutler]

I think they are saving that kind of warfare for Thrall the nice orc. Garrosh is a racist, let's face it, if he dind't need the forsaken and the belfs he'd kill em himself. So his a prick, I don't think anyone can deny that, but TBH he's a breath of fresh air next to the perfects that seem to overflow the lore lately.

Oh I hear you, he brought conflict, yet he was created in such a way the only thing he could bring was conflict, if he had the slightest political tact he micght have had a chance to survive at the end of mop, but it seems we will burry another hellscream quite soon. I wonder if his father would have been proud of him.

[Arthur-the-exalted]

Not necessarily, they tolerate those who stand with them, or who are not in their way though. As long as you don't cross them and not the target of their never ending hatred they will most likely leave you alone.

for how long? how ling will that last really? after they capture the eastern kingdoms what stops them form moving on? do not forget the wraithgate, we saw how far they will go, killing there own allys...forsaken should be purged, and i am very surpised that argent crusade is not on that already.

[Combatbutler]

The children live to see another day thanks to the alliance being honorable and not some blood thirty killer like hellscream, king varian who hates the orcs more than anyhting is even stated in the raid on orgrimmar to spare the children and other....did hellscream ever do the same? no, orcs should be less viciouss if anything by this turn of events, it shows that our side is atleast willing to let you live and strive for peace..

I hate to repeat myself, but the only honorable being I know of is Tirion every other person uses honor when it suits them, so they don't have honor at all. What does it matter if Hellscream ever did the same it only means the Alliance fights the war less dirty, and less innocent victims I would see it as a gesture of goodwil in hopes to break the cycle of hatred but I see no honor in it.

[Deleted]

Oh I hear you, he brought conflict, yet he was created in such a way the only thing he could bring was conflict, if he had the slightest political tact he micght have had a chance to survive at the end of mop, but it seems we will burry another hellscream quite soon. I wonder if his father would have been proud of him.

Probably not. Hellscream made a bad start but had a good ending. He realised his mistakes and did what he had to do to correct them.
Garrosh on the other side, he went from good to bad to good to bad, ... he needs to die.

[Combatbutler]

for how long? how ling will that last really? after they capture the eastern kingdoms what stops them form moving on? do not forget the wraithgate, we saw how far they will go, killing there own allys...forsaken should be purged, and i am very surpised that argent crusade is not on that already.

As long as sylvanas rules they will get rid of those who pose a threat to them, and the rest are of no concern to her, since her ultimate Goal is survival to try take over the world is far too risky. Should Sylvanas die though things could turn problematic in the future.

[Arthur-the-exalted]

As long as sylvanas rules they will get rid of those who pose a threat to them, and the rest are of no concern to her, since her ultimate Goal is survival to try take over the world is far too risky. Should Sylvanas die though things could turn problematic in the future.

well thats is my point though, she almost died attacking greymane...if that happens everyone will be a risk, even the horde. is there even a reason to keep them alive? all they do is spread death, no living creature can live were they have been...they are nothing but trouble, even orcs spare inncoents, forsaken do not.

---------- Post added 2012-06-05 at 02:43 PM ----------

I hate to repeat myself, but the only honorable being I know of is Tirion every other person uses honor when it suits them, so they don't have honor at all. What does it matter if Hellscream ever did the same it only means the Alliance fights the war less dirty, and less innocent victims I would see it as a gesture of goodwil in hopes to break the cycle of hatred but I see no honor in it.

Tirion is truly the most honorable, but i see thrall and varian as close, at icc varian had no reason to let Saurfang's father pass but he did, varian may not of been the most honorable man ever but as time goes on he is headed that way, thrall is pretty much there. I think they both truly want peace

[Combatbutler]

well thats is my point though, she almost died attacking greymane...if that happens everyone will be a risk, even the horde. is there even a reason to keep them alive? all they do is spread death, no living creature can live were they have been...they are nothing but trouble, even orcs spare inncoents, forsaken do not.

If the forsaken will be left alone, become somewhat accepted they might turn into a nation like they used to be, the bitterness might ebb away their souls might calm in time, but that we don't know for certain, though trying to extinguish them could unleash unimagined attrocities, we see what forsaken deploy in war now, just what would they deploy once they become really desperate.

[Deleted]

If the forsaken will be left alone, become somewhat accepted they might turn into a nation like they used to be, the bitterness might ebb away their souls might calm in time, but that we don't know for certain, though trying to extinguish them could unleash unimagined attrocities, we see what forsaken deploy in war now, just what would they deploy once they become really desperate.

Rhonin, nuff said

[Combatbutler]

[/COLOR] Tirion is truly the most honorable, but i see thrall and varian as close, at icc varian had no reason to let Saurfang's father pass but he did, varian may not of been the most honorable man ever but as time goes on he is headed that way, thrall is pretty much there. I think they both truly want peace

Wanting peace is different from having honor. Both want their people in happiness to do this they must deal with each other, it is mor politics than anything in my opinion. If the other becomes a threat to their people they will have no problem to kill each other.

Rhonin, nuff said

The forsaken creating another Rhonin ? Don't even joke about that!

[Arthur-the-exalted]

Rhonin, nuff said

Ashbringer is all thats needed