Jaina's Newfound Hatred of the Horde

[Deleted]

Like that pathetic senile meatbag could even do something like that, all he could do since he was introduced in w3 was summonning trees and wisps and rooting random characters for questioning. Dont overestimate druids, they fall by dozens every day while defending critters and flowers.

I really, really think you dont know anything about his lore, he is said to be the strongest mortal, stronger then thrall or jaina, so no he is not just a meatbag who just can summon trees.

[Combatbutler]

I really, really think you dont know anything about his lore, he is said to be the strongest mortal, stronger then thrall or jaina, so no he is not just a meatbag who just can summon trees.

Yet druidism isn't as powerful as most assume it has it's clear boundaries, just like shamanism. For example if a druid heals, lorewise he takes life from his suroundings to heal someone, several miles of land died to heal Korialsztrasz.

[Deleted]

As a character I always respected and liked very much, I was also always somewhat disturbed by her tolerance for the horde. It shouldn't be this way, she must hate horde like every normal Alliance character/player. I'm long since quit WoW but I'm keeping a close eye on her and hoping one day she'd also become absolutely badass in addition to her sexy looks. I want to see her kicking some whorde ass, and I mean literary. I want her to put a serious waste to horde, hopefully even kill few notable horde characters in the process or at least kick some sylvanas or other crap's ass.

[Deleted]

Yet druidism isn't as powerful as most assume it has it's clear boundaries, just like shamanism. For example if a druid heals, lorewise he takes life from his suroundings to heal someone, several miles of land died to heal Korialsztrasz.

With this your are right that druidism power, is not a strong as the raw power as a mage, but druidsm power at his level is really really strong, if you read wolfheart, Because he wanted people to stop there yelling in a instant he made lightning strike around him, and in war of the ancient, he was a great help, so he is still in so many ways more then just a meatbag, for yes raw druid power is not as effectiv as a mages, but on his level, he is also very offensiv with lightning, Entangling Roots, hurricanes.

[Frontenac]

Faulty comparison (that's being kind) aside, it's irrelevant. The Horde and Alliance have been in a state of cold war since vanilla, and these skirmishes have been present since day one. It wasn't escalated to "official war" until Varian directly assaulted and tried to kill the leader of the Horde, and made his "disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves" manifesto crystal clear for the world to see. That is treated in-verse as the point of clear reference for straight up faction war. None of what you cited is.

It's that simple, whether you think it's fair or not. I can definitely see where Varian's coming from, personally. He has a very legitimate gripe with the Horde, and was fairly justified in making the unofficial official. But make no mistake: kicking it into full throttle was on his head, right until he retracted it and signed a truce with Thrall.

On another note, what John Doe the Forsaken says and does is not equal in weight and consequence to what Varian Wrynn the military leader of the Alliance says and does.

With that reasoning, the responsibility of WWII is on the head of Churchill and Daladier when they officially declared war on Germany.

[Combatbutler]

The only thing you'll gleam about my worldview from an Alliance/Horde debate is that I prefer monarchies to perennial regency. <.<

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens? Jaime Lannister attacking Stark men outside the- no, wait... My point being, there is no Pearl Harbor here. There's a lot of random skirmishes that neither side gives any real support or muscle to, and they're universally treated as isolated incidents. You could chalk the Wrathgate up to it, I suppose, but we all know how that ended – with Varian trying to kill Thrall and making a proper declaration of renewed conflict.

With that reasoning, the responsibility of WWII is on the head of Churchill and Daladier when they officially declared war on Germany.

We have a better situation right now actually. A western nation is using drones to kill citizens of another country, still those two are not at war right now.

In fact they are still "allies".

[Fahrenheit]

I highly recommend you significantly change your wording if not our right deleting that post Combatbulter or this thread will derail.

[Combatbutler]

I highly recommend you significantly change your wording if not our right deleting that post Combatbulter or this thread will derail.

I did change the wording but it still doesn't change the fact unless the governments of nations declare war than there is no war so to speak, just skirmishes.

[Urti]

I highly recommend you significantly change your wording if not our right deleting that post Combatbulter or this thread will derail.

I think he's counting on it derailing at this point. That's one of the great fail-flails of the intewebs. If you are starting to lose ground in a valid argument, quickly change course to an unrelated divisive topic. Suggestions include, but not limited to; American tyranny and it's "evils", Hitler, video-game console wars, Europe is a socialist wonderland without flaw, and your mom.

[Deleted]

She should definitely get into a bad mood. She needs to show the horde that you don't mess with the most powerful mage in the land!

[Deleted]

Yet druidism isn't as powerful as most assume it has it's clear boundaries, just like shamanism. For example if a druid heals, lorewise he takes life from his suroundings to heal someone, several miles of land died to heal Korialsztrasz.

Just to nitpick: the druid doesn't take the life away from the surroundings to heal, the druid pleades to the lifeforms near to give a small amount of their lifeform to perform the healing. The lifeforms accept depending on the druish-righteousness of the cause, the atuning to nature of the pleader and the eagerness of the plea. In normal wounds, no plant really has to die. Korialstrasz was more dead than alive, and his lifeforce was enormous, but the plants around Malfurion were so moved by his desire to heal the dragon that they gave themselves.

I wanted to say this because with that wording it looks like the druids can steal life from one being to give it to another.

[RyanEX]

Skirmishes are one thing. But the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas is a far cry from a skirmish since it involves attempting, not attempting to grab some obscure piece of land, but the capital and entirety of territory of another faction.

Same thing with the Ashenvale invasion. A leader could always deny knowledge or involvement in a clash between small forces (Thrall's been doing it since launch). But when you have said faction leader at the forefront of a battle in another's territory you don't need to say anything. That is a clear declaration of war.

[Dreknar20]

The only thing you'll gleam about my worldview from an Alliance/Horde debate is that I prefer monarchies to perennial regency. <.<

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens? Jaime Lannister attacking Stark men outside the- no, wait... My point being, there is no Pearl Harbor here. There's a lot of random skirmishes that neither side gives any real support or muscle to, and they're universally treated as isolated incidents. You could chalk the Wrathgate up to it, I suppose, but we all know how that ended – with Varian trying to kill Thrall and making a proper declaration of renewed conflict.

And just to nitpick, since the quests never make it clear, here's how Blizzard describe the Vengeance Landing quests:



Horde aggression right there, eh?

You cant pin the blame for an entire war on only one race or one faction
Both sides are guilty of creating hostility and dis-trust between the races and nations

[Talen]

Yet, it's the first time that Horde and Alliance fight each other directly. Indication of war.

Alterac Valley. Arathi Basin. Eye of the Storm. Warsong Gulch.

These don't count? The fighting in GH and ICC is no worse than the fighting that came before in previous Xpacs. Yes...Varian committed an act of war. The question is...did war follow? And it doesn't seem that is the case. Whatever Varian said or did, it appears to have resulted in no armies being moved, no sieges being initiated, no conflicts begun, no navies unleashed. It resulted in zero quests, zero impact to the story. It had no ramifications, no consequences. It could have had that effect....but the act doesn't have to escalate into the state of war. Thrall certainly had an excuse to retaliate..except he didn't want to. And Varian appears to have done nothing to follow up. Tensions rose, cooperation was broken off but an actual state of war?

Regardless....we've had this discussion before, we'll no doubt have it again (unless the next novel spells things out) but this isn't the thread for it.

EJL

[Dreknar20]

Alterac Valley. Arathi Basin. Eye of the Storm. Warsong Gulch.

These don't count? The fighting in GH and ICC is no worse than the fighting that came before in previous Xpacs. Yes...Varian committed an act of war. The question is...did war follow? And it doesn't seem that is the case. Whatever Varian said or did, it appears to have resulted in no armies being moved, no sieges being initiated, no conflicts begun, no navies unleashed. It resulted in zero quests, zero impact to the story. It had no ramifications, no consequences.

Regardless....we've had this discussion before, we'll no doubt have it again (unless the next novel spells things out) but this isn't the thread for it.

EJL

All the Bgs in BC and Vanilla were merely skirmishes on the frontiers or borderlands
As the Horde and Alliance were in a state of Cold War, not open war

Varian probably calmed down from his little bitchfest and realized that the Scourge are still the main priority

[Talen]

All the Bgs in BC and Vanilla were merely skirmishes on the frontiers or borderlands
As the Horde and Alliance were in a state of Cold War, not open war

Varian probably calmed down from his little bitchfest and realized that the Scourge are still the main priority

The point being that there is nothing...absolutely nothing...in game or lore to suggest any major change in relations beyond this. Thrall didn't want war and Varian, as you put it, appears to have calmed down. His act of war does not appear to have led to a state of war. Raised tension, ended cooperation? Yes. More?

EJL

[Chevonne]

Personally, ready for some Orc Hate. Garrosh needs to die. Then be rezzed. Then die again. Yeah. I like it.

[kendro1200]

She should be angry with herself for helping murder her father, because helping the horde back then has now lead to the destruction of Theramore. It would be cool to see her massively regret that decision and get angry, not so much at the horde, but at herself.

As bayushisan stated though, she killed her father to save Thrall's Horde, Thrall's Horde joined with her to fight the demons and the undead. Thrall's Horde left her small expedition force alone after the events of Hyjal, despite the fact that they could have wiped her out. She was willing to work for peace with Thrall's Horde, and she didn't realize how much different Garrosh's Horde is from Thrall's. She advocated for peaceful solutions to avoid conflict and war. She saw war and death tear apart her homelands, she was a child of an Admiral and a child of war, she knew its true horrors. Garrosh has never known real war, he's seen skirmishes, but he lived and hid in Nagrand in his childhood.
Garrosh is a bad kid who got a hold of something that he should have never had, for all of the wrong reasons. Thrall gave him the Horde for things he hoped would happen rather than things that were already there.
Jaina has every reason to lash out at the Horde, no matter who runs it afterwards. The soldiers of the Horde razed her home, soldiers that she did her best in the past to save. She is the most powerful mage in Azeroth, she stood toe to toe with the Lich King Arthas Menethil, and survived. No one else could pull off that feat, even the leaders of the Burning Legion were afraid to attempt such an action, Illidan nearly lost his life to just Arthas Menethil the Death Knight. With the location of Theramore she could have wiped Orgrimmar off the face of Azeroth, especially with her adept command of water and ice magic. Toss in the fact that she can teleport into Orgrimmar at will, and even create portals, that in and of itself should speak to her command of the arcane. All of the mages of the Horde that live in Orgrimmar have nothing on her, they don't even know that it's happening until after she's already locked the portal. The seat of power of the Horde up till now has been unknowingly at the mercy and survived on the good will of Jaina Proudmore. Blizzard will hopefully properly portray the wrath she'll be unleashing over the betrayal and unforgivable acts of aggression against her city, people and self.

[Deleted]

The point being that there is nothing...absolutely nothing...in game or lore to suggest any major change in relations beyond this. Thrall didn't want war and Varian, as you put it, appears to have calmed down. His act of war does not appear to have led to a state of war. Raised tension, ended cooperation? Yes. More?

EJL

It led to a point of direct battle between Horde and Alliance forces in Grizzly Hills and Icecrown, with Tirion forcing a truce and a further treaty, which Shattering indicates. I mean, Broken Front? The Argent Crusaders telling that the Alliance and the Horde are dumb for fighting each other right at Arthas' footsteps?

What people forget is that there was a war between WotLK and Cataclysm, the War Against the Nightmare.

[Rreessii]

I want to see her as a raid boss. She seems to be going that direction anyhow. Power-hungry mage.