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  1. #21
    hm, maybe people should reroll a class players seem to be happy with for MoP. oh, wait, according to all the threads in the class forums there is none...

  2. #22
    Just stop playing Rogue if you hate Combo Points so much.
    The 3 90-tier talents are all variable in effectiveness, and I can see myself making choices between them.

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  3. #23
    Are you guys REALLY crying about it?

    Rogues at the moment can get you from 100% to 20-30% in just an opener.. Doubt you'll get much different in MoP.. Yet you are all still unhappy and want gap closers (when you have sprint) and CC resistance.. uhm, cloak anyone? -.-
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Azurenys View Post
    Are you guys REALLY crying about it?

    Rogues at the moment can get you from 100% to 20-30% in just an opener.. Doubt you'll get much different in MoP.. Yet you are all still unhappy and want gap closers (when you have sprint) and CC resistance.. uhm, cloak anyone? -.-
    That's not the topic of discussion, but I guess people will spin what they read to what they want to see, right?

  5. #25
    Rogues have never enjoyed a good nerfing in any WoW expansions. Every freaking moment of time they are top dps and the best PvP class.


    I would love it if the class got deleted.


    The game would be much better without Rogues. They ruin World PvP, ruin battlegrounds, ruin arena and require so little skill in PvE whilst enjoying faceroll dps its just not funny anymore.

  6. #26
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    Every xPac I hear the same nonsense about rogues being broken or underwhelming, and in every xPac I am always at the top op the leader board in damage and near the bottom in damage taken.

    My job is to do wicked damage and let the heals worry about others while I take care of myself. I love the advantages of playing a stealth class and a melee class, having the respect of my peers in-game, and never feel my class is not fun.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Minky View Post
    That's not the topic of discussion, but I guess people will spin what they read to what they want to see, right?
    It was something contained in one of the QQ posts made in this topic by a rogue.. and it's a prime example that your little community is ALWAYS unhappy, even when you got legendary daggers and a special chain just for your class.. it still wasn't enough.

    Getting tired of classes that are actually viable and in a very good position screaming murder and calling names, comparing to "everyone else who is OP unlike us" and what not. At least posts some REAL reasons why you think rogues are worse than everyone else.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mygodman View Post
    Rogues have never enjoyed a good nerfing in any WoW expansions. Every freaking moment of time they are top dps and the best PvP class.


    I would love it if the class got deleted.


    The game would be much better without Rogues. They ruin World PvP, ruin battlegrounds, ruin arena and require so little skill in PvE whilst enjoying faceroll dps its just not funny anymore.
    You seem angry. And you're wrong.

    Their DPS is no more faceroll than any other class (If you find any class difficult to DPS as, you need to read no further than here: Stop playing)
    They have the highest skill-ceiling and a moderately low skill-floor, and
    They are strong in BGs and world PvP because they can pick their fights - but if you can't fight Rogues, I guess you just need to get better, right?
    Or would you rather an archetypal class get deleted because you suck? :S

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-03 at 09:25 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Azurenys View Post
    It was something contained in one of the QQ posts made in this topic by a rogue.. and it's a prime example that your little community is ALWAYS unhappy, even when you got legendary daggers and a special chain just for your class.. it still wasn't enough.

    Getting tired of classes that are actually viable and in a very good position screaming murder and calling names, comparing to "everyone else who is OP unlike us" and what not. At least posts some REAL reasons why you think rogues are worse than everyone else.
    >Little community
    Hah, Okay.
    You, too, seem mad.

    It's not everybody calling names. Some people -are- posting real reasons they dislike how Rogue is looking in Mists - and they've provided more for discussion than you...Ever seem to have, on these forums.

    You also seem to be lumping every single individual that plays a given class in a game as sharing the exact same ideas and saying mean, hurtful things to you. I shouldn't have to tell you how utterly stupid and juvenile of an assumption that is to make.

    Go be mad elsewhere, or start making arguments that are relevant.
    Last edited by Minky; 2012-06-03 at 09:31 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Well I'm not saying it's impossible, but at the moment it's still a loss because of the percentage based poison application. If you want to do your best possible DPS you still want a 1.8 dagger in your offhand =/

    But alas, it's not as much of a loss as it is currently now on live. But a loss is still a loss.
    Le F. that xD I'm going double swords rogue again. 2.6 both xD

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Minky View Post
    >Little community
    Hah, Okay.
    You, too, seem mad.

    It's not everybody calling names. Some people -are- posting real reasons they dislike how Rogue is looking in Mists - and they've provided more for discussion than you...Ever seem to have, on these forums.

    You also seem to be lumping every single individual that plays a given class in a game as sharing the exact same ideas and saying mean, hurtful things to you. I shouldn't have to tell you how utterly stupid and juvenile of an assumption that is to make.

    Go be mad elsewhere, or start making arguments that are relevant.
    Blablabla. Is that all you can do? Talk gibberish and say nothing, even with 500 words? Why do you keep calling people angry or mad?

    Where are the real reasons I asked you to list? Yep, nowhere, since there are none.

    You're the snowflake that's mad, and you know why? Because you keep telling people to quit the game if they don't like stealthy little cowards running about, being PERFECTLY fine and still complaining. Maybe you should follow your own advice. Game would be much better without people like you.

    I'm done here, didn't expect much more from the Rogue community, all you guys do is flame and cry, nothing more. Whenever a person shows up, questioning your whining, you just call him angry or mad, insult him endlessly for no reason and tell him to quit the game. Lol.

    Quite petty, actually.

    See you on the battlefield.

    Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.
    Last edited by Kelticfox; 2012-06-03 at 10:25 AM.
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  11. #31
    thanks minky, finally someone who shares my opinion

    Edit: was referring to the post about our new talents. i dont want to join the flame war.
    Last edited by Rogaeu; 2012-06-03 at 09:53 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Azurenys View Post
    Blablabla. Is that all you can do? Talk gibberish and say nothing, even with 500 words? Why do you keep calling people angry or mad?

    Where are the real reasons I asked you to list? Yep, nowhere, since there are none.

    You're the snowflake that's mad, and you know why? Because you keep telling people to quit the game if they don't like stealthy little cowards running about, being PERFECTLY fine and still complaining. Maybe you should follow your own advice. Game would be much better without people like you.

    I'm done here, didn't expect much more from the Rogue community, all you guys do is flame and cry, nothing more. Whenever a person shows up, questioning your whining, you just call him angry or mad, insult him endlessly for no reason and tell him to quit the game. Lol.

    Quite petty, actually.

    See you on the battlefield.
    Hah, what?
    Are you seriously getting this worked up over a class in a game? Are you really making wide assumptions that everybody who plays Rogue is a
    >stealthy little cowards
    ?
    I know it's a sore saying, but you need to get out more.
    I've not insulted you aside from what you've proven to be true. I've told you that it's juvenile and stupid to lump people who play a class in a game together as though they're a hive-mind, because that -is- a stupid and juvenile thing to do.

    People -are- posting "real" reasons why they don't like the class' directions in MoP. Specifically, the level 90 tier doesn't offer much choice - which is the system's goal. It's a perfectly acceptable topic of discussion that seems to go completely over your head.

    "I'm done here, didn't expect much more from the Rogue community, all you guys do is flame and cry, nothing more. "
    If anybody's flaming here, it's you. It's almost like watching an example of adult-Autism in a natural environment: An MMO forum.

    "Whenever a person shows up, questioning your whining, you just call him angry or mad, insult him endlessly for no reason and tell him to quit the game. Lol."
    But you -are- angry and mad. You entered the topic with nothing but angrymad "rogs r dum i dnt like dem dey r cowrdz" to contribute to the discussion.
    What exactly did you intend to add to the topic by doing that? I'm seriously curious.

    Too lazy to head this post-picking-apart-ness with anything witty.
    please respond ;<


    Mod Edit: User was infracted for this post.
    Last edited by Kelticfox; 2012-06-03 at 10:34 AM.

  13. #33
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    This thread is becoming a flamefest. The situation has been handled. Please continue back on topic.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by macdisciple View Post
    Every xPac I hear the same nonsense about rogues being broken or underwhelming, and in every xPac I am always at the top op the leader board in damage and near the bottom in damage taken.

    My job is to do wicked damage and let the heals worry about others while I take care of myself. I love the advantages of playing a stealth class and a melee class, having the respect of my peers in-game, and never feel my class is not fun.

    ever like to pretend that all the rogue forums are some rogue-watering hole near SI:7 for funsies? heh x) /raises glass* thanks for that, really

    i mean, it wouldnt make a great deal of sense for bliz to go from giving us legendary daggers to smacking us around unless a rogue keyed metzens car

    in the historical sense, isnt it strange to think that we could be the last generation of rogues to know what its like to have all those abilities at once? but we are versitile by nature---it is our buisness to survive i love my main, im not re-rolling

    you know your a born rogue when people fussing about your inherent op-ness in design cheers you up :3 but everyones got saving graces

    and lets not rise so swiftly to anger, lets funnel that into bgs hehe
    Last edited by Asotcha; 2012-06-03 at 10:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingBreezes View Post
    To be honest, the worst thing about Horde archetecture is how incredibly ineffective and easily destroyed it is. To take out an alliance fortress you need siege weapons and spies. To take out a Horde fortress you need some torches and a book to read while it all burns down.

  15. #35
    It seems like there are 2 options for the 90 tier.
    If Anticipation affected Slice&Dice, it would be a far more viable talent choice - getting in a way bigger burst when it's needed in PvE or PvP would be great for choice - if Eviscerate were a bigger contributor to our overall damage output.
    Anticipation seems way better for Assassin than for Sub or Combat due to Assassin's fast combo-generation rate, and how strong Envenom is in comparison to Eviscerate.
    If Anticipation were made to be able to be used on non-damaging finishers, it might be too strong.

    For most situations, I'm pretty sure I'd choose Versatility over Anticipation - and never even think about Shuriken Toss - unless I'd have a LONG time off-target, on an encounter where the no-cooldown on Redirect wouldn't matter.

    Shuriken Toss should be changed to either combine Shuriken Toss & Deadly Throw, with something else in Deadly Throw's spot; or something that perhaps lets us stack up combo on a different target without losing our combo on the previous.
    The two Throw abilities are boring and will -not- be chosen.


    Mod Edit: User was permanently banned for ban evasion.
    Last edited by Kelticfox; 2012-06-04 at 10:27 AM.

  16. #36
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    I have no problem with rogues in beta at the moment. I haven't seen any dps test so far. We barely see big numbers but poison damage is relatively higher. If the dps is alright i'm satisfied. Also: It would be nice if they make throw like a ranged auto attack. So that you can shuriken toss to generate CP and deadly throw to finish it. Along with the throw auto attack it would make rogues a little viable to pick off a target when they're low and running away.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by stuntz View Post
    Anticipation on beta atm... sucks.

    My understanding of it is: When you gain a charge, you get a buff that lasts 15 seconds (both IN and OUT of combat). After the 15 seconds, all built up charges fade.

    The charges do not proc from SnD either (or recup, but that one is expected).

    All in all, it's got VERY limited use it would seem. Fading in combat and not working with every spec's primary dps finisher is kind of dumb.
    I wouldn't say it sucks. I agree SnD could use anticipation charges, but I can understand why they removed SnD/recup from finishers that grant anticipation charges (see notes at end of post). If they'd increase the duration to 30 seconds it'd fix things. Very rarely 15 sec is not long enough. Having it fade after time is not remotely unreasonable.

    Combo point generation is MUCH slower at 90 than it is at 85 for combat (and presumably assassination, haven't played it yet)--even comparing to leveling gear at 85. The stats depreciation is bad. My current leveling gear puts me at 10.51 energy/sec as sub and 12.80 energy/sec as combat at level 90. I'm in full townlong/dread wastes gear (ilevel 429) except for 414 shoulders (which is compensated for by 450 boots & belt and 434 bracers & gloves).

    Anticipation allows you to refresh SnD or rupture with minimal overlap. I suspect that when all is said and done, you'll wanna use 5-point SnD, even as combat. Keep in mind that a 1 point SnD in MoP is shorter than a 1point talented and UNGLYPHED SnD on live. You almost have to do a 1pt SnD followed by a 5pt SnD opener as combat on live--you barely have enough time for a finisher, and if you do perform a finisher, you will NOT have enough time to follow up that 1pt SnD with a 5pt SnD. I'm sure that will change by T16 though.

    Regardless, combat rogues will see energy pooling in MoP.

    15 seconds is long enough (but barely if unlucky with RvS & CP procs) to build 5 combo points on beta (as combat). Yes, combo point generation at level 90 in leveling gear is slightly more than half the speed of live.

    Note: If you're at 4 combo points, hit sinister strike and RvS procs an extra combo point, it DOES grant an anticipation charge. I presume seal fate is the same way. HaT also grants anticipation charges.

    Here is why I suspect SnD/recuperate do not grant combo points from anticipation charges--it would function as a second redirect, and the idea behind anticipation is that it breaks the 5 combo point rule--NOT that it breaks the "combo points on the rogue" rule--that's what versatility does. If it granted combo points from SnD, you could put up 5 anticipation charges, then get 5 combo points on a target, switch to a new target, hit SnD/recup, and bam, 5 combo points on new target. In that scenario you want to use versatility, not anticipation.

    Anticipation is a fun and versatile talent. Versatility... is boring.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-06-03 at 01:53 PM.

  18. #38
    The Anticipation charges all fall off after 15 secs even in combat, so I will have to agree to disagree that is fun. I find that cumbersome, just my two cents. To explain why I don't find the talent fun is, because I thought the point of anticipation was to allow you interesting choices, but it doesn't seem so.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2012-06-03 at 02:07 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Minky2 View Post
    It seems like there are 2 options for the 90 tier.
    If Anticipation affected Slice&Dice, it would be a far more viable talent choice - getting in a way bigger burst when it's needed in PvE or PvP would be great for choice - if Eviscerate were a bigger contributor to our overall damage output.
    Even if Anticipation worked with snd and recup it would still be bad as it is currently implemented on beta. Only lasting 15secs in or out of combat limits it far to much in pve and pvp. I doesn't work like the extra hp that was given to paladins baseline at all. You lose all stacks at once not 1 at a time like hp, Hp never fades in combat and 1 every 10sec out of combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minky2 View Post
    Anticipation seems way better for Assassin than for Sub or Combat due to Assassin's fast combo-generation rate, and how strong Envenom is in comparison to Eviscerate.
    I should point out that evis are more of sub's dmg than envenom is of assassination's. Also assassin's combo point generation on beta is terrible with the bonus crit removed and slower energy regeneration. As far as raw numbers my highest envenom under Vendetta is 70k in full 410 gear deep insight 65k evis find weakness 95k evis all unbuffed on a dummy. 90 everything is so slow its hard to compare things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minky2 View Post
    If Anticipation were made to be able to be used on non-damaging finishers, it might be too strong.
    Why would Anticipation be to strong if it worked on all finishers? With no other changes than that it would still be crap.



    Its easy to see that you're not on beta and haven't tested anything out. Atm all three of our 90 choices are garbage.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-06-03 at 05:18 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    I should point out that evis are more of sub's dmg than envenom is of assassination's. Also assassin's combo point generation on beta is terrible with the bonus crit removed and slower energy regeneration. As far as raw numbers my highest envenom under Vendetta is 70k in full 410 gear deep insight 65k evis find weakness 95k evis all unbuffed on a dummy.
    The problem we currently have on live is that Mutilate generates between 2 and 3 combo points. Once we have 4 combo points, we are forced to use Envenom with 4 combo points because another Mutilate will waste combo points resulting in a DPS loss. Anticipation allows us to use another Mutilate so we can do a 5 combo point Envenom and not lose any combo points.

    Another thing I wanted to mention is that the main reason you use Envenom is to get the Envenom buff, not the damage. Of course the damage is great as well but the buff provides way more. And now they changed poisons to crit with our melee crit rate it's only going to be better.

    Just note that I haven't done any math in terms of uptimes on the Envenom buff or whether it's actually better to use it with 4 combo points instead of squeezing in another Mutilate to turn it into a 5 combo point Envenom. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's a DPS increase to just use a 4 combo point Envenom instead, but we will find that out when MoP goes live or when the numbers are fully tweaked.


    Anyway the main thing I wanted to point out with my post was that Envenom's initial damage isn't the only thing you should be looking at. That extra second can easily add another Instant Poison tick which should be added to the damage Envenom contributes. But I do agree that all level 90 talents look pretty lackluster. Shuriken Toss is going to be extremely situational and the few fights it's actually the best choice, you shouldn't be bringing a Rogue in the first place. God knows why Versatility isn't baseline or a glyph.

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