So it seems rogues are fine

[Mafic]

Yeah, we're choosing what skill we want to lose.
Assassination live is already not too exciting for me because I depend totally on mutilate (high energy cost) to get CPs and boring offensive CDs and I'm not a fan of combat because it's SS spam, but at least I'm pressing buttons.

The only choice I think that seems too punitive to the class as a whole is mobility vs prep on the same tier. I mean no one will fret the loss of Combat Readiness given that Elusiveness/Leeching are simply superior in every way possible. No to mention Deadly Throw and Nerve Strike are more appealing than Combat Readiness too.

Any improvement to BoS or Shadow step and I think the Rogue trees as a whole will be overall balanced (with the exception of the 90 talents that need work).

[shadowboy]

My only complaint while leveling is that the healing poisons don't scare very well. Early on they were OP but by 87 they weren't even noticeable. Seeing as its a loss in dmg I would expect it to be a noticeable at least while leveling. I like the new shadow dagger thing though. Hopefully it fixes that annoying minute gap in the combat rotation where you are doing nothing while waiting for cds to come back.

The reason leeching poison doesn't scale well is that damage isn't scaling up. You're coming from end-of-tier stats inflation gear to leveling "barely enough" stats. For example, my autoattack dps with fangs at 85 is higher than my autoattack damage with ilevel 429 quest reward greens at 90--due to the massive loss in haste. Plus when you put epic gems in level 85 gear you actually end up over-budget because the sockets are budgeted at blue-quality gem stats, so epic gems and socket bonuses tend to give you a lot of extra agility, and as you replace the DS gear with leveling greens, your agility/ap actually stays pretty flat.

Your health pool grows by quite a bit, so while the leeching poison healing doesn't really get any bigger, recuperate and the leeching shiv effect get much bigger. At 85, I have 148k health and shiv heals me for 7k and glyphed recup for about 5k a tick. At 90 I have 284k health, shiv heals me for 14k and recup is 9.9k a tick. You gain health but not damage so your healing shifts from leeching poison to recup/shiv (if you need to shiv).

[Najja]

This was always one of my biggest gripes with the rogue class. Every Xpak classes get all of these new awesome abilities, resource systems and rotation changing moves, and every Xpak rogues stay mostly the same. Hell it took them two entire expansions to even get Subt on the table as a PvE option. So at this point I have no faith in Blizzard being competent enough to handle the rogue class in a way that will make me want to resub to the game anytime soon. It truly hurts to see the class that you put countless hours into as your main simply not evolve along the same lines as the others.

[Mafic]

This was always one of my biggest gripes with the rogue class. Every Xpak classes get all of these new awesome abilities, resource systems and rotation changing moves, and every Xpak rogues stay mostly the same. Hell it took them two entire expansions to even get Subt on the table as a PvE option. So at this point I have no faith in Blizzard being competent enough to handle the rogue class in a way that will make me want to resub to the game anytime soon. It truly hurts to see the class that you put countless hours into as your main simply not evolve along the same lines as the others.

The Rogue model is the gold standard, which is why they have used this model to design the Death Knights, and Monks from the ground up, and many other specs too. As a result, it feels like that the new possible layers they could add to the Rogue combo point and energy system, or innovation, is being put into other specs. The Rogue model is iconic for the ebb and flow of the energy, and how combo points have to be used as it leads to decisions. Rogue are uniquely more about a traditional rotation than a priority system.

It is clear that the team has limited resources to make sweeping changes to Rogues. But more importantly, they don't want to fix what isn't broken from their view, which I can understand. Still, there are a lot of quality of life improvements they can put in place to make Rogues more enjoyable to play in MoP rather than the sluggish pace they are on currently. And, they can also juice up the level 90 talents. The level 90 talents are not iconic enough, or make a huge difference to warrant being level 90 talents.

[Verain]

Deadly Poison proccing (and thus proccing instant) on both weapons makes poison damage from the offhand a bit less of a concern. Combined with the superior damage of Slow/Slow during killing spree (now 7 hits instead of five) and with Killing Spree still having an approximately one minute cooldown via Restless Blades (Also, energy regen from Combat Potency procs more with slower weapons), Slow/Slow combat looks -passable- in theory (on par with 2h Frost). It might even have superior burst.

You are absolutely dreaming if you think that 7 extra hits being upgraded from a 1.7 multiplier to a 2.4 multiplier will be anywhere close to losing 30% of your offhand deadly procs. There's just no way.

It definitely stands to look viable in pvp, I'll grant that.

The Rogue model is the gold standard, which is why they have used this model to design the Death Knights, and Monks from the ground up, and many other specs too.

I don't like that our RESTRICTIONS have to be so damned ironclad. We DEFINITELY have combo points on us. We DEFINITELY are bad at range. We DEFINITELY have a poor gap closer. But our advantages are so controversial that the devs won't even state them publicly. When they call out warriors for doing rogue-like damage, a million keyboard jockeys mount up and frowny-face out stuff about how it's not fair for a damage spec to be designed to do less damage, hybrids etc. I think the big thing we get in pvp, officially, is that kidney has a lower cooldown that the similar duration stun that all the other melee classes have, and that all our specs have it. But in pve, this isn't even really present as an advantage. So we have clear and obvious restrictions to the rogue class, but the advantages to our combat system are subtle- and sometimes not present for a whole patch.

Anticipation is inferior to Versatility, and because of how small of a window you have to work with (damaging finisher too!) it is really lackluster.

I don't have a level 90 on beta and likely won't until they do premades. How is a 15 second window small for finishers? What do you mean by "damaging finisher too!"? My understanding here is that every time you would make a combo point, you instead make a charge, and reset the duration of the 15 second timer. How long would you need to pool as mutilate? I mean, you are pretty much running 5 point envenoms the whole time right, BECAUSE of anticipation?


Can someone on the beta at 90 spell out exactly how anticipation works?

[Failure2Communicate]

Can someone on the beta at 90 spell out exactly how anticipation works?

I'm not on beta but it's pretty simple. If you ever played assassination you know how it was not critting on mut and only getting 4 cps, it was a dmg loss to hit env right then and there was no other cp builder to use that was worth it for the extra cp so you just muted once more.. ainticipation will save that extra combo point that was wasted by doing another mut. After your next envenom that extra cp that was saved is on your target and now you are guarantee'd 5cp after 2 mutilates.

[Mafic]

Here is why I suspect SnD/recuperate do not grant combo points from anticipation charges--it would function as a second redirect, and the idea behind anticipation is that it breaks the 5 combo point rule--NOT that it breaks the "combo points on the rogue" rule--that's what versatility does. If it granted combo points from SnD, you could put up 5 anticipation charges, then get 5 combo points on a target, switch to a new target, hit SnD/recup, and bam, 5 combo points on new target. In that scenario you want to use versatility, not anticipation.

Anticipation is a fun and versatile talent. Versatility... is boring.

That makes Anticipation more interesting though, but still requires the charges to be built up (and they don't persist after 15 seconds into combat) while the limitation with Versatility is an extra button press.

Can we all agree that Slice and Dice is an integral finisher for all Rogue trees? This is the same limitation that was put on Restless Blades, which is why I am surprised they did the same with Anticipation.

I don't see anything wrong with Slice and Dice interacting with talents or mechanics to change up the play of Rogues?

[Verain]

I'm not on beta but it's pretty simple. If you ever played assassination you know how it was not critting on mut and only getting 4 cps, it was a dmg loss to hit env right then and there was no other cp builder to use that was worth it for the extra cp so you just muted once more.. ainticipation will save that extra combo point that was wasted by doing another mut. After your next envenom that extra cp that was saved is on your target and now you are guarantee'd 5cp after 2 mutilates.

This is not what I asked for, sorry. I can read what it says, but if you'll note the rogues in this thread are saying that the time you maintain the charges for (apparently a max of 15 seconds) is inadequate. I'm wondering why that would be- I would imagine that gaining a combo point from HAT, or going from 3 to 6 combo points or 4 to 6 or 7 as mutilate, would give you a charge, and 15 seconds would be long enough to find a good part to press that envenom (or eviscerate in the case of sub).

Here is why I suspect SnD/recuperate do not grant combo points from anticipation charges

So let us assume you are at 5 CPs, and 1 charge of anticipation. You press slice and dice. Does this mean you have the remainder of those 15 seconds to build up to your eviscerate and press it, at which point the one charge of anticipation will be a combo point?

But I would agree with your assessment- if the logic of anticipation is "puts combo points on your current target", then it would be very close to having a 0 cooldown redirect, where you build to 5 CPs and some number of anticipation charges, press slice and dice, and then have the anticipation charges as combo points on the new target.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 06:32 PM ----------

Uh wait, does it work with kidney?

[Wow]

So let us assume you are at 5 CPs, and 1 charge of anticipation. You press slice and dice. Does this mean you have the remainder of those 15 seconds to build up to your eviscerate and press it, at which point the one charge of anticipation will be a combo point?

Theres no assuming thats how it works.

And with our abilities having no bonus crit and me having 9% crit 10.4 eps it falls off most of the time when snd has to be put up before I can hit a dmging finisher.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 02:40 PM ----------

Uh wait, does it work with kidney?

yes it works with it.

[Verain]

Theres no assuming thats how it works.

My assumption was "you have 5 combo points and one charge of antcipation". I did not assume how it worked, or use that word in that context.

But, thank you! This is exactly what I was wondering.

So it sounds like it won't be useful to float across a Slice, reducing the utility for combat. I assume it still works ok for sub, and likely for muti- sub because it gets way more CPs, and muti because it will only be pressing rupture and envenom, both of which work with anticipation?

yes it works with it.

Sweet. I was thinking that shuriken would be better in pvp (and it might still be), but being able to deliver a five point finisher right after a KS with a full pool of energy does in fact increase our burst.

[shadowboy]

Speaking from combat perspective (and sub, for that matter), the benefit to anticipation is that it allows minimal SnD overlap. Energy regeneration is slow and SnD duration at less than 5 points is worse than live. What you will want to do is if you have, say, 6 or 8 seconds left on SnD, you will hit 5 combo points, *continue to generate combo points* past 5, then consume the 5 points on an offensive finisher, then use the anticipation-granted combo points on SnD. If you have anticipation charges it's better to use an offensive finisher first, THEN SnD, not the other way around. I personally think the buff should last 30 sec, not 15.

[Wow]

So it sounds like it won't be useful to float across a Slice, reducing the utility for combat. I assume it still works ok for sub, and likely for muti- sub because it gets way more CPs, and muti because it will only be pressing rupture and envenom, both of which work with anticipation?

it will work fine for assassination pve but not pvp for any spec and doesn't work fine for combat or sub pve.

Sweet. I was thinking that shuriken would be better in pvp (and it might still be), but being able to deliver a five point finisher right after a KS with a full pool of energy does in fact increase our burst.

cp's take to long to build in pvp to ever make 10 cp's happen and be useful. Toss is better as it cost next to nothing and build cp's very fast and snares. It also doesn't require a weapon and has no min range. Something worth mentioning as now all disarms take both weapons.

[Verain]

Pity, I liked having the good disarm. Dismantle is a great move. Still, with shiv's cooldown I thought this was going to be an issue anyway.

Shuriken throw can proc poisons? Or do you just mean you can build to a deadly throw?

[Wow]

Shuriken throw can proc poisons? Or do you just mean you can build to a deadly throw?

It procs poisons, Toss as range dmg is terrible but for building cp's at very low cost and snaring at range its good. That said its not an ability you feel like you would wait 90 lvls to unlock.

[Mafic]

It procs poisons, Toss as range dmg is terrible but for building cp's at very low cost and snaring at range its good. That said its not an ability you feel like you would wait 90 lvls to unlock.

It basically replaces throw. :P

[Vigilate]

PvE wise, I think we'll be be ok. Well, at least combat will. Combat's energy regen will feel a good bit better with more haste, hit cap, and expertise cap. Assassination still needs it's crit mods back or for the energy cost of its moves to be lowered. It just plays really slow at the moment. Sub needs some more love. The fact is is that Shadow Dance as a dps cooldown feels near useless when Ambush is doing pitiful damage due to not critting.

Pvp wise, rogues are going to be in rough shape. Again, maybe it'll change with better gear, but I don't think pvp gear will make up for poor energy generation. Haven't done much level 90 testing of the pvp yet because of the lack of lvl 90 pvp gear and lack of new BGs yet, and so have only tried Assassination out. From what I can tell, facing most classes isn't too bad. The only problem is that Assassination is really only deadly when Vendetta and Shadow Blades are up at the moment. The rest of the time, there's just no burst.

[Wow]

PvE wise, I think we'll be be ok. Well, at least combat will. Combat's energy regen will feel a good bit better with more haste, hit cap, and expertise cap.

What would make you think that its energy feels terrible at 85 in bis gear. Gear not going to fix that at 90 if its broken at 85 with gear.

Assassination still needs it's crit mods back or for the energy cost of its moves to be lowered. It just plays really slow at the moment. Sub needs some more love. The fact is is that Shadow Dance as a dps cooldown feels near useless when Ambush is doing pitiful damage due to not critting.

Pvp wise, rogues are going to be in rough shape. Again, maybe it'll change with better gear, but I don't think pvp gear will make up for poor energy generation. Haven't done much level 90 testing of the pvp yet because of the lack of lvl 90 pvp gear and lack of new BGs yet, and so have only tried Assassination out. From what I can tell, facing most classes isn't too bad. The only problem is that Assassination is really only deadly when Vendetta and Shadow Blades are up at the moment. The rest of the time, there's just no burst.

Just like cata's start only one spec works in pve and all specs dead in pvp lol. Good work blizzard really good work.

[Mafic]

What would make you think that its energy feels terrible at 85 in bis gear. Gear not going to fix that at 90 if its broken at 85 with gear.


Just like cata's start only one spec works in pve and all specs dead in pvp lol. Good work blizzard really good work.

Shuriken Toss + Deadly Brew may actual keep Rogues interesting at least in PVP.

[Wow]

Shuriken Toss + Deadly Brew may actual keep Rogues interesting at least in PVP.

Interesting doesn't mean the specs will work. A ranged rng slow is nice but doesn't fix any of the many many other issues holding rogues back in pvp on beta. If crippling was still 70% it could be something but with everyone being 50% (dk's still have a 60%) its not that great. This plus burst of speed could be something if it didn't cost 120 energy.. Just to many things holding all our specs back.

[Mafic]

Interesting doesn't mean the specs will work. A ranged rng slow is nice but doesn't fix any of the many many other issues holding rogues back in pvp on beta. If crippling was still 70% it could be something but with everyone being 50% (dk's still have a 60%) its not that great. This plus burst of speed could be something if it didn't cost 120 energy.. Just to many things holding all our specs back.

The feeling of the Rogue class feeling so mundane comes form the lack of crit talents, and being energy starved. This is not just a PVP problem, but also a PVE problem.

You do have a fair point about Burst of Speed, because it seems like it is designed to be only optimal for Combat. Designing a talent that only one spec can utilize at a modest level seems off, and runs counter to the entire talent tree re-vamp. Then again, Combat is considered the swashbuckling toe to toe spec, so the dev team may feel comfortable with one spec zipping around like a warrior. Afterall, Combat is often called Warrior-lite. But, it does seem odd that Sub spec no longer has that elusive feeling without Shadow Step. I suspect because of the Crip nerf, Shadow Step will still be the go to talent for Rogues for a variety of reasons (Landing a Kidney Shot from behind, escaping trouble by shadow stepping to an ally, etc).

Yes, Backstab and Ambush are taking it on the chin in MoP, and it seems like a repeat of early WotLK.