Is it right to lower the difficulty of school exams because less people pass them?

[Deleted]

Would removing the test make the kids smarter? No. What motivation do you have for removing it? Just because a teacher is stupid you want to allow everyone to be stupid? I am not sure that is the logic you want your country to operate under.

I fail to see where I said it's good and that I want it. In general, most forum subjects I make only contain the info, and I state my opinion later in the comments. Why don't you look in the comments for my actual opinion instead of twisting my words because I present the facts to let everyone decide?

Edit: oh, I get it, you're a future teller and you've seen that in the future I'll be in the Gouvernment ruling Romania. Ok, then I forgive you.

[Judge Malthred]

No, the exams should not be made easier...
However, they should match the curriculum set for the class they are for, and the teachers should make sure that they have covered the required material properly.

After that, it's up to the student to pass, not the school to pass the student.

Spot on. Making things easier doesn't actually help anyone in the long run.

[Deleted]

How can you have an oral exam in your own native language? o.O

Well... you get a piece of paper with the subjects, which are related to a writing in your language in general and... you speak. And then the examinator asks you questions.

---------- Post added 2012-06-06 at 09:44 PM ----------

NO, I also live in Romania and the level of the Bacalaureat exam is laughable.

If a student doesn't pass it with atleast a 6 then they don't deserve to aspire for a university period.

Also if only those that failed hadn't spent so much time on the internet and hadn't put their hopes in cheating, they would have had better results.

You do have to admit however that there's many other causes, bad teachers, parents left in Spain leaving their children without true supervision, the circus in education in the last 10+ years changing everything everytime.

That said, I do agree, the subjects are laugable, if people can't get a 6 average they indeed do not deserve to go to an university even with all that, that's how easy they were. Haven't checked them in more recent years, but I doubt they got tougher.

[sheffield]

bell curve.. working as intended

[Deleted]

New information available in OP post. It's relevant because it seems the ministers in my country changed their mind, now they want to make the exam harder. Without taking care of the cause why people failed last year so much of course. And in case you're Romanian and see this, no, I don't belive the other parties in the opposition are better, they're all just as bad, we have to vote the lowest evil in here is what I view the situation... and at this point... both sides seem as bad.

[JohnBrown1917]

They are already very easy(high school exams that is), so no. Unless those doing the exams don't learn for it or have a very low IQ, they will pass it.

[haxartus]

So what's the difficult part again ? You should already know Romanian and English is easy enough.
And for the physics, chemistry and biology test to work, it should ask only for the most basic stuff.

[Tradewind]

The world always needs janitors.

Your so much better then them?

Preserved for posterity. Or do they not teach conjunctions anymore?

[Deleted]

Nope, it's not right, but no one wants to fix it. Our educational system has been in a continual decline for about 20 years now and I don't think it will get better any time soon.



Yes, I know it doesn't apply 100% to your question. It's taken from a comedy show, not a "serious" discussion, but you may find enough similarities with Romania.

[Deleted]

So what's the difficult part again ? You should already know Romanian and English is easy enough.
And for the physics, chemistry and biology test to work, it should ask only for the most basic stuff.

Why should it ask only the most basic stuff? In the end people went to a highschool of science specialization, and that's what they're focused on. So the questions should be appropiate for the difficulty level. I just don't understand why merge all though, 3 exams in one, this is like those detergents, 3 in 1.

---------- Post added 2012-06-07 at 10:52 AM ----------

Nope, it's not right, but no one wants to fix it. Our educational system has been in a continual decline for about 20 years now and I don't think it will get better any time soon.



Yes, I know it doesn't apply 100% to your question. It's taken from a comedy show, not a "serious" discussion, but you may find enough similarities with Romania.

True, it doesn't apply 100%, only 99%, replace "Wall Street sharks" with just "business men sharks" and remove the part with politicians being controlled by business men (in my country, politicians are the business men) and you have it.
Funny, the video reminded me of highschool era. So in the 11th grade, there was some talk about uniforms. And I said "no, why would I buy something that may come only next year and we may barely use" while everyone said "come on, it's the new highschool rules, you need to pay, it will be better, it will help you get used to wearing a suit etc" and other crap. So then the company brought 1 month later the ties and said they'll soon bring the rest of the uniform. It came 1 year later, just as I said(so 2 months before the end of last highschool year). Funny enough, they didn't want to give people their money back. So they got screwed, I did not because I was the only one to oppose this knowing how things work in Romania.

[haxartus]

Why should it ask only the most basic stuff? In the end people went to a highschool of science specialization, and that's what they're focused on.

Because you can't combine 3 high level exams in to one and expect people to pass. It would be simplified due to the large area of subjects covered.

[Deleted]

True, it doesn't apply 100%, only 99%, replace "Wall Street sharks" with just "business men sharks" and remove the part with politicians being controlled by business men (in my country, politicians are the business men) and you have it.
Funny, the video reminded me of highschool era. So in the 11th grade, there was some talk about uniforms. And I said "no, why would I buy something that may come only next year and we may barely use" while everyone said "come on, it's the new highschool rules, you need to pay, it will be better, it will help you get used to wearing a suit etc" and other crap. So then the company brought 1 month later the ties and said they'll soon bring the rest of the uniform. It came 1 year later, just as I said(so 2 months before the end of last highschool year). Funny enough, they didn't want to give people their money back. So they got screwed, I did not because I was the only one to oppose this knowing how things work in Romania.

I know, I'm Romanian as well. I attended highschool at the beginning of the 90's and I remember the uniform thing. It was too soon for my generation and they didn't succeed, but then again, it doesn't matter much. They still made some money out of nothing selling those ties.

Point was, no one here wants the education to get better. We're a corrupt country and the less people know about it, the easier politicians have it. They make up non-issues that get a lot of media time and divert the discussion away from the root of the problem. Even the small percentage of media that covers political issues is more or less tabloid these days having endless talk shows about some politician that did X at an Y social event - "Do you think it was right for him to do that? Send an SMS, go to our facebook page/website and discuss" type of thing. Funny thing is this is also a way of dealing with angry people: talk to them, let them vent and once they've let it all out, they end up doing nothing about it (difference here being no one takes the time to talk to the angry people - they talk among themselves).

Not to mention some of that media have their own political agenda. More often than not the coverage is so biased it can hardly be called journalism. A quote from The Wire comes to mind: "Our job is to report the news, not manufacture them".

[Deleted]

Edit: So a few hours after making this thread I watched the news... and seems the ministers in my country changed their mind(again) today. Seems they decided that from now on the subjects will be like this:
- a written test for romanian language(or I presume maternal language)
- an oral test for romanian(or I presume maternal language)
- an oral test for a foreign language at choice
- digital competences (this is stuff like Microsoft Office Basics)
then the sciences high schools get:
- a subject in maths
- a subject combined of chemistry, biology and physics
and the humanistic high schools get:
- a written subject in foreign language
- a subject combined of history, geography and socio-human studies
and the tech high schools get:
- a giant subject with everything ever learned

How did they change their mind? It's been like this since the beginning of the year.

As for your question, not necessarily, depending on the domain. Math and Physics are one thing, but you won't be unsuccessful in life if you don't know what the blue curtains in Jack's house symbolizes. I have the same exam in a month, and I assure you that I will forget everything after two months. Or at least I will forget most of it.

[Itisamuh]

I would say Valleera has the right of it. Well; usually, of course.

Indeed, the exam should be made to match the curriculum. However, if during the making of the exam, the people making it find out that they simply cannot match it, even at the highest levels, they should seriously consider upping the curriculum. Students should be incited, emotionally, to learn. They should be enthused by the teacher about a subject. If you ask me, the most important part of teaching a subject is not explaining it, but making people enthusiastic about it. Make the kids interested in a subject, make the kids love your subject, and you're more than halfway there.

And, indeed, learn to spot when someone's in trouble. As Valleera mentioned in their example situation, a lot of teachers will not explain a problem, even when asked. I know cases, especially in math, where, when asked, a teacher simple follows the steps exactly as given in the textbook, without explanation, and then goes: That's how you do it. But that doesn't explain the 'how' at all; the child cannot learn from that. Droning up a series of actions does not contribute to the child's grasp of the theory. At best, the child is now able to make exactly thát sum, purely by memory. But unable to use the same theory on other problems.

But it's easier.

It's not lean, because it's not efficient.

So no; don't change the exams... Change the way people educate.

I want to agree with you, because your overall point is good, but there's nothing that could make kids enthusiastic about school, especially the core curriculum that doesn't do anything to prepare them for the real world. It doesn't matter what the teacher says or how he acts, math just isn't exciting, and most kids know that beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, it's completely unnecessary in life so they don't want to do it. Same with science, unless the kid is planning on working in the field, it's boring and worthless knowledge. History is important for the sake of being cultured I suppose, but in the end, it's all behind us, and kids don't care about things that don't directly pertain to them. English, probably the most important of the core subjects, isn't exactly exciting either, especially when dealing with the technical terminology that doesn't really matter.

My point is, of course, that unless the curriculum is changed drastically, both in high school and the first two years of college, nothing's going to make people interested. Basic algebra, very basic science, standard English, and American history should be the extent of what's required in American schools in my opinion. Everything beyond that in those subjects should be totally optional, and all other subjects should be about developing skills that will help them in the work force, along with the extra optional classes like music, art, Spanish, and so on. Oh, and physical education should be required every year. The first two years of college shouldn't even exist, because they don't have anything to do with the field of work being chosen, and are just more of the same crap from high school that nobody really needs to know. There's no telling how many more people would be willing to go to college if this portion was removed.

It's all behind me, though, so I don't care too much. I didn't care in school, and didn't try, and still finished with a nearly perfect average, so it's not like I think school is too difficult. But I do think it needs to have serious changes to prepare kids for life, instead of cramming worthless subjects into their brains that they'll forget as soon as the test is over and never need to recall again for the rest of their lives. Well, except maybe for those first two years of college which, as I said, I think should be eliminated altogether.

[Tarx]

The exams must be hard as hell and the university must be a temple of knowledge.

[Deleted]

Because you can't combine 3 high level exams in to one and expect people to pass. It would be simplified due to the large area of subjects covered.

But if it's too simple, why have it at all?

I know, I'm Romanian as well. I attended highschool at the beginning of the 90's and I remember the uniform thing. It was too soon for my generation and they didn't succeed, but then again, it doesn't matter much. They still made some money out of nothing selling those ties.

Point was, no one here wants the education to get better. We're a corrupt country and the less people know about it, the easier politicians have it. They make up non-issues that get a lot of media time and divert the discussion away from the root of the problem. Even the small percentage of media that covers political issues is more or less tabloid these days having endless talk shows about some politician that did X at an Y social event - "Do you think it was right for him to do that? Send an SMS, go to our facebook page/website and discuss" type of thing. Funny thing is this is also a way of dealing with angry people: talk to them, let them vent and once they've let it all out, they end up doing nothing about it (difference here being no one takes the time to talk to the angry people - they talk among themselves).

Not to mention some of that media have their own political agenda. More often than not the coverage is so biased it can hardly be called journalism. A quote from The Wire comes to mind: "Our job is to report the news, not manufacture them".

Fully true. There is no reason to make the population smarter since if it's dumb they can be controlled easier. I mean let's be honest, we live in an EU country where there's towns without electrical power still, where parts of the capital doesn't have a sewage system and people drink water from wells, a country where many country people don't even know who the current president is, let alone the prime-minister or the party in power. It's quite sad to know and see this.

And true, they do, every other few days we hear some random "sensational" subject that lasts for 3 days then everyone forgets about it. And the political shows and televisions... all of them are controlled by one side. As I heard someone say once when asked "is the media free in Romania?" the answer was "yes it is, it's just payed by different politicians, but they chose their side" and I found the answer to be right, there's so much bias it's amazing.

How did they change their mind? It's been like this since the beginning of the year.

As for your question, not necessarily, depending on the domain. Math and Physics are one thing, but you won't be unsuccessful in life if you don't know what the blue curtains in Jack's house symbolizes. I have the same exam in a month, and I assure you that I will forget everything after two months. Or at least I will forget most of it.

As I knew it, the Liberal Democrat Party (PDL) alongside the coalition wanted what I said initially and the Social Liberal Union (USL) agreed for this point. Now they changed their mind.
Good luck for you then Remember to not forget how to speak and write romanian and english though, we have enough who do

I want to agree with you, because your overall point is good, but there's nothing that could make kids enthusiastic about school, especially the core curriculum that doesn't do anything to prepare them for the real world. It doesn't matter what the teacher says or how he acts, math just isn't exciting, and most kids know that beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, it's completely unnecessary in life so they don't want to do it. Same with science, unless the kid is planning on working in the field, it's boring and worthless knowledge. History is important for the sake of being cultured I suppose, but in the end, it's all behind us, and kids don't care about things that don't directly pertain to them. English, probably the most important of the core subjects, isn't exactly exciting either, especially when dealing with the technical terminology that doesn't really matter.

My point is, of course, that unless the curriculum is changed drastically, both in high school and the first two years of college, nothing's going to make people interested. Basic algebra, very basic science, standard English, and American history should be the extent of what's required in American schools in my opinion. Everything beyond that in those subjects should be totally optional, and all other subjects should be about developing skills that will help them in the work force, along with the extra optional classes like music, art, Spanish, and so on. Oh, and physical education should be required every year. The first two years of college shouldn't even exist, because they don't have anything to do with the field of work being chosen, and are just more of the same crap from high school that nobody really needs to know. There's no telling how many more people would be willing to go to college if this portion was removed.

It's all behind me, though, so I don't care too much. I didn't care in school, and didn't try, and still finished with a nearly perfect average, so it's not like I think school is too difficult. But I do think it needs to have serious changes to prepare kids for life, instead of cramming worthless subjects into their brains that they'll forget as soon as the test is over and never need to recall again for the rest of their lives. Well, except maybe for those first two years of college which, as I said, I think should be eliminated altogether.

I do agree on some points, which are that there are some useless subjects being put in schools and highschools. One I thought as such and I still do is Latin. I never used it, I didn't even learn it (not even the teacher knew it right) and most likely never will. And if someone doesn't become an archeologist around southern Europe or go to Law School(I never understood why they keep some Law stuff in latin?) or needs a nice name for a plant in biology... it's useless.
However, being in highschool I can argue that a student should have at least a basic direction of what they might want to do in life, and as such, of what they need. History, Sociology, Psychology and Geography were subjects that, for example, helped me in Political Sciences University and, if I pursue a career in politics, would help me in the subject. So a humanistic highschool fitted me. That said, doing basic chemistry, physics and advanced mathematics in 9th and 10th grade felt useless as those had nothing to do with my path, nor will I ever use them. Removing informatics though with these was a horrible idea, as I need that on my path as well. That said, I never needed advanced psychology, I never understood what personality an umbrella has(the question was put by my psychology teacher once, he wasn't pleased with 90% of answers, he wasn't even pleased with the true answer, which is that the umbrella is not a person and as such, has no personality).

Overall, the way the subjects are put is not perfect, in fact it's quite bad as it stands, with only 4-5 per each highschool path being in the right place.

About fun in teaching. Computer games. Kids love computer games, even adults do. You mentioned maths, look at all the theorycrafting done for WoW alone! So maths can easily be integrated as a more fun activity with games. History, there are history accurate games (well, you might see 1 tank instead of 100, but still), geographically accurate games, there are psychology, politics, logistics, simulator games... these all can help in real life and are fun. In fact, I heard at some pilot training facility they used the Microsoft Flying Simulator X to teach the pilots for example. As it stands, the only problem is the eye problem for now, if you sit 6-8 hours monday to friday in a monitor, you will get some problems, especially when you're little, but it's ok, board games and such could be used as well, books and contests. It's easy to get children and later, teenagers, interested in the school matters, but it takes time and money.