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  1. #1

    BiS Balance Neck

    So I've been under a pretty solid impression that the Heroic Flowform Choker off of Domo is BiS for every spirit-using caster dps seeing as you're dropping the spirit for the mastery with the over-abundance of spirit on the current BiS itemization. At the same time, pretty much every balance druid I see is using the heroic fungal heart. Granted it has 41 more points of haste with a good amount of spirit, but is it really worth it granted the amount of hit you drop for mastery?

    I will have my Dragonwrath in 4 weeks time so I'm going to have a good bit more hit than I do now to work with. Just wanted to hear some opinions and hopefully some physical proof that it's actually better than the flowform choker. Not looking for statements along the lines of, "It's better because it is" for those of you who are ignorant to the appreciation of factual evidence. Thanks for your time.

    (I can't link my armory yet because I've never posted here, but feel free to check me out yourself. (And I'm aware that I need Lavawalker on my boots.) My gear isn't great, but I'm coming off of being MS Bear since ToC))
    Last edited by Nihill; 2012-06-06 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Yes fungal heart is better. If you get Dragonwrath and other BIS items, with good reforging you will be exactly around the hit cap. With a huge amount of haste, which is always king

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Despite View Post
    Yes fungal heart is better. If you get Dragonwrath and other BIS items, with good reforging you will be exactly around the hit cap. With a huge amount of haste, which is always king
    I'm not worried about hit cap reforging. That's easy... I want actual proof that having the spirit over the mastery is undeniably better. Keeping in mind the Heroic Flowform Choker has 10 more points of Intellect for those of you who haven't noticed.

  4. #4
    With the right reforge you will end having more haste and more mastery than with flowform choker.
    Just don't follow the optimal reforge suggesteed by sites like wowreforge.

  5. #5
    Maybe I'm being a bit douchey, but I did ask for an better answer than, "It's better because it is...." Unless the 41 points of haste is going to put me barely over or at a break-point with all BiS, I'm going to stick with the Heroic Flowform Choker.

  6. #6
    Yes Fungal Heart HC is best in slot. It might have the same Intel with gemed FLowform but the ilvl jump comes with extra secondary stats. For stat weights you consider spirit = mastery as during reforging you reforge one into another usually.

  7. #7
    Thank you neph for a much better answer, I will look into that once I'm in more bis and I have my Dragonwrath.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-06 at 06:23 AM ----------

    Juve, Flowform has 10 more points of int...Just saying please read everything that I'm typing. So far Neph has the best reply

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-06 at 06:28 AM ----------

    I'm off to bed. Looking forward to some more intelligent answers (like the one Nephyron posted) when I wake up. Thanks for your input, everyone
    Last edited by Nihill; 2012-06-06 at 10:28 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihill View Post
    Thank you neph for a much better answer, I will look into that once I'm in more bis and I have my Dragonwrath.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-06 at 06:23 AM ----------

    Juve, Flowform has 10 more points of int...Just saying please read everything that I'm typing. So far Neph has the best reply

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-06 at 06:28 AM ----------

    I'm off to bed. Looking forward to some more intelligent answers (like the one Nephyron posted) when I wake up. Thanks for your input, everyone
    So you wanted someone to verify that indeed 204 Haste is more than 163? Or that 204 Spirit is more than is more than 133 Mastery? I already said Spirit = Mastery when reforging.

    20Haste alone would outweight the 10 Intel. Not sure if it was gratification you were seeking.

  9. #9
    I don't know if this is not enough proof for you... but just use the Wowhead item comparison.

    http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items....0.0.0.0.0.119 there. There is 30 seconds worth of work. If you find 10 int and 52 mastery better than 123 spirit and 41 haste (and even some stamina), you need to rethink a lot of things.

    It even says clearly, that "Int > Haste = Hit = Spirit > Mastery > Crit" in the balance druid guide which is stickied on these forums. Spirit and haste are both better than mastery, point per point and you get over 3 times more of them. The loss of 10 intellect doesn't mean anything in this case.

  10. #10
    T13 Moonkin BiS

    We've been over all that already. PFH H is BiS and should not be reforged at all once you have all BiS gear.

    Also, work on your tone, you're way to dismissive for somebody to lazy to do the math himself.

  11. #11

  12. #12
    Stood in the Fire silver9172's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pakoa View Post
    Fungal Heart.
    Just because something has a higher ilvl does not make it BiS.

  13. #13
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Don't think 10 of any primary stat is going to outweigh the overall benefit you receive from a 20ilvl increase. Unless something is very very very poorly itemized.

    In a nutshell: Even if individually the 2 pieces of gear are fairly even (or even if the choker is marginally better) the extra stat points (even if not perfect on that piece of gear) will give you the ability to allocate/reforge more stats on another piece of gear that will make up the difference (I.E the extra spirit on the neck may allow you to reforge spirit off another piece of gear that will allow you to pick up even more haste instead of merely reforging the spirit on the neck to mastery).

    If that's not enough justification you may just want to stay MS bear.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-06 at 09:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    Just because something has a higher ilvl does not make it BiS.
    Obviously this doesn't work in EVERY scenario, but 9/10 times this is usually the case. The exception being super poorly itemized. Higher ilvl usually results in higher primary stats and a larger amount of secondary stats that can be allocated in a way to be more beneficial overall even if the piece doesn't have the exact stats you want.

    Another good example of this would be the crafted wrists vs Morchok Wrists. Crafted wrists have more intellect and more haste when compared merely as piece-to-piece to the Morchok Wrists. Yet Morchok wrists are still considered BiS because of the overall secondary stat benefit you receive when paired with the rest of your gear.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by silver9172 View Post
    Just because something has a higher ilvl does not make it BiS.
    And just because something has 10 more Int doesn't make it better.

  15. #15
    BiS was discussed a long time ago, and ran through multiple sims in multiple configurations.
    If you disagree with those results, please feel free to run the sims yourself, and post your findings before trying to call people out with assumptions

    in the mean time, as huth says, your tone here needs attention, considering there is a large source related to t13 BiS already.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...13-Moonkin-BiS

  16. #16
    Edit: Skyepic, you should reconsider GoSS, Glyph of Wrath is superior, GoSS is not better because you aren't casting more starsurges with 4t13 since the 10sec cooldown often align up with a SS proc that happens on average every 9 sec)

    As I've already said, The flowform Chocker does not provide more mastery than the Petrified Fungal Earth.
    It provides only 10 more intellect.

    Just don't follow the optimal reforge.
    Take a look here: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...8ldon/advanced

    With Flowform and optimal reforge:
    Haste: 2898
    Mastery: 1773

    Petrified Fungal + optimal reforge that asks me to leave the neck without reforge and change the boots from
    99 crit → haste to 102 spirit → haste
    Haste: 2942
    Mastery: 1746

    If you blindly follow what those sites or addons suggest you would think:"Hey i'm not reaching any new breakpoint and at this point i prefer to increase mastery because I have this 17.999999999 points of mastery" Flowform is giving me+10int and more mastery, it has to be better.

    Too bad that there's not only one possible reforge and
    Petrified Fungal Earth + not the optimal reforge (neck 81 spirit → mastery and boots 99 crit → haste)
    Haste: 2939
    Mastery: 1827

    grants more haste and mastery.

    I'm not the only druid that chose to use this reforge in all bis
    Lappé from Paragon: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A9/advanced
    Bushino from Blood Legion: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...shino/advanced
    Nagura from Method: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...agura/advanced
    Хитаро from Би Негатив: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...D0%BE/advanced


    and many more
    Last edited by Meldon; 2012-06-08 at 10:32 AM.

  17. #17
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephyron View Post
    Edit: Skyepic, you should reconsider GoSS, Glyph of Wrath is superior, GoSS is not better because you aren't casting more starsurges with 4t13 since the 10sec cooldown often align up with a SS proc that happens on average every 9 sec)
    The choice isn't made because of MORE starsurge casts neccesarily. It's more about being able to align all of my starfalls with lunar eclipse. Because of the RNG on the legendary Eclipse cycles are never exactly the same (some are longer because of no procs, some are shorter because of alot of procs). Regardless of how the RNG on my staff is i can align most of my starfalls with Lunar Eclipse and if i get more than 12 starsurges off during a boss fight (which is most likely the case; 60 seconds off starfall cooldown). It allows me to get an extra/free starfall off during the fight. Assuming the fight isn't ultraxion and i'm able to use more than 10 stars per use due to more than 1 mob in my vicinity the extra stars + free/extra starfall + the fact that most/all are in Lunar Eclipse exceeds the additional damage i'd do with Wrath using GoW.

    Maybe it's just my playstyle or good RNG when using GoSS and bad RNG when using GoW. But overall through my Dragon Soul experience i've found GoSS to be more beneficial DPS wise. Especially with the 4pc when you don't happen to get a starsurge proc every 9 seconds as you say. (i've never done any research on that but 9 seconds seems too fast).

    Edit: Decided to do a quick analysis on it, can't do much since i don't have anymore recent WoL postings (haven't raided since March). I looked at my WoL analysis for Blackhorn (note this is also with DI). Fight took 6min 11 seconds (377 seconds) and i had 23 starsurge procs. The only time i'm not multi-dotting is for the final burn on blackhorn which takes roughly 1 minute (ish). This means with multi-dotting i was only getting a starsurge proc every 15.6 seconds. We can assume single target this average would be even lower. Sooo yeah, obviously this isn't an average since it's only 1 example but it seems to be a pretty heavy outlier to your approximation. Dunno where you got 9 seconds from but like i stated earlier, it seems a bit fast.

    Edit x2: Had time to check one more so i did Ultraxion. 324 second fight, 14 SS procs = 1 SS per 23 seconds. You may want to recheck your information on SS frequency.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=5861&e=6233 Feel free to look over the other 6 fights or whatever on my logs (and other guilds) and see what you come up with, i think i had DI that entire night.

    Also note: GoSS was used this entire night (including Ultraxion) cause it's farm and i'm lazy.
    Last edited by Skyepic; 2012-06-08 at 02:15 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nephyron View Post
    I'm not the only druid that chose to use this reforge in all bis
    Lappé from Paragon: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%A9/advanced
    Bushino from Blood Legion: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...shino/advanced
    Nagura from Method: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...agura/advanced
    Хитаро from Би Негатив: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...D0%BE/advanced
    Since the necklace debate seems to be beaten down and answered pretty well, what I'm interested in is the glove enchant and use of bracers each of these top boomkins are using. Lappé and Nagura are both using the Mycosynth bracers, the other two using the crafted bracers.

    Also, everyone's using the haste glove enchant, but not reaching a haste breakpoint by doing so. I know this is all farm content now and it doesn't matter anyways, but when it was relevant, mastery was more valued than haste on both Deathwing fights anyways due to either needing more burst (lol) during spine and having most of a tendon being dps'ed during solar anyways, or Madness which is multidot mania, having a high uptime on eclipse.

    Doing some napkin math not considering the individual fights, I still found 65 mastery to be more beneficial than 50 haste. Am I missing something obvious? It seems if haste is that much more valued than mastery, then why aren't they all using the Flowing Serenity bracers?

  19. #19
    The Patient Skyepic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzyb View Post
    Since the necklace debate seems to be beaten down and answered pretty well, what I'm interested in is the glove enchant and use of bracers each of these top boomkins are using. Lappé and Nagura are both using the Mycosynth bracers, the other two using the crafted bracers.

    Also, everyone's using the haste glove enchant, but not reaching a haste breakpoint by doing so. I know this is all farm content now and it doesn't matter anyways, but when it was relevant, mastery was more valued than haste on both Deathwing fights anyways due to either needing more burst (lol) during spine and having most of a tendon being dps'ed during solar anyways, or Madness which is multidot mania, having a high uptime on eclipse.

    Doing some napkin math not considering the individual fights, I still found 65 mastery to be more beneficial than 50 haste. Am I missing something obvious? It seems if haste is that much more valued than mastery, then why aren't they all using the Flowing Serenity bracers?
    Haste is the better glove enchant because haste has a much higher stat weight than mastery meaning 50 points of haste is actually a bigger dps increase than 65 points of mastery (mainly because we don't benefit from mastery 100% of a fight. You have to take into consideration Dragon Soul was cleared by these guilds (and most top guilds) like 4 months ago. During progression on spine and madness when every point of damage mattered i'm fairly certain they did have 65 mastery on their gloves. Outside of those 2 fights haste is still the better glove enchant, and with the aspect buff/nerf thing and everything being on farm there would be no point in any moonkin keeping 65 mastery on their gloves.

    As for the bolded statement. Are you saying on a fight by fight basis mastery is better than haste?. I'm assuming you came to that conclusion because your "napkin math" doesn't take into account the times between eclipses when you are not benefiting from mastery but still benefiting from haste (which is the main reason why mastery is a much weaker stat). As for the bracer choice i already touched on that in an above post that i don't feel like repeating so feel free to skim back up to that.
    Last edited by Skyepic; 2012-06-08 at 05:37 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyepic View Post
    As for the bolded statement. Are you saying on a fight by fight basis mastery is better than haste?. I'm assuming you came to that conclusion because your "napkin math" doesn't take into account the times between eclipses when you are not benefiting from mastery but still benefiting from haste (which is the main reason why mastery is a much weaker stat). As for the bracer choice i already touched on that in an above post that i don't feel like repeating so feel free to skim back up to that.
    Yeah, looking back at some specific logs, I overvalued the amount of time spent in eclipse when weighting the value of mastery, so I see it comes down to a point that haste overtakes it now. It was flawed napkin math and that napkin's now in the garbage.

    But now that I'm clear on that, why they split on the bracers preference between the big shots? I have to imagine drop percentages don't play into their decisions. Seems the math is pretty clear about what's better (or so it seems), but looking at the character sheets you linked earlier, at a glance, it seems the Flowing Serenity users have superior stats without any wasted hit rating.

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