Guildwars 2 PvE Endgame Reality Check!!!

[Hellspawnxxx]

This isnt a "will GW2 have endgame?" thread. No this is educating people about how much endgame Guildwars 2 has to offer. Because so often I see people commenting that well Guildwars 2 doesnt have the same amount of endgame as other MMO's particully World of Warcraft. Im here to put this into a more defined perspective.

[Edit] This isnt a WoW vs GW2 thread trust me I played and Loved WoW for 6 yrs. Its just most MMO's are very simular too WoW and WoW is the most reconizable and understandable for the masses.


WoW's Gear Grind vs GW2 Titles & Priestige Items this is a small insignificant portion of my argument but ill briefly touch on the subject, There both fun...There I said my piece on that LoL.

But The real argument isnt about what system offers better rewards its about actual play time. Ill break the 2 games down into how much endgame content your allowed to do.

World of Warcraft Raids:

Number of Raids = Average 1 - 2 (at anyone time most players only run the most current raid tier to obtain more powerful gear)

Number of Difficulties = 3 (Normal / Hardcore/ Looking For Raid)

Number of times a raid can be completed = Once per week (when a raid is completed or a boss dies the raid / boss becomes locked out until the raid resets)

So WoW Players are getting Limited Endgame experience because of raid lockouts / item level gear tread milling.



Guildwars 2 Dungeons:

Number of Dungeons = 8 (3 max level and 5 lower level but none of that matters because the downscale system makes all the dungeons challenging and worthy of your time and skill, not to meantion since theres no gear grind system you run dungeons for cool esthetic skins / priestige / titles, which each dungeons have thier own unique rewards)

Number of Difficulties = 2 Story normal mode / explorable hard mode

Number of times a dungeon can be completed = AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT opps I typed that in caps LoL ( there are no raid lock outs)

So Guildwars 2 Players get 8 dungeons with unlimited playtime.



Conclusion WoW's gear grind / raid lockouts only give the illusion that theres alot to do at endgame. Where as Guildwars 2 none gear grind / no raid lockout system isnt an illusion it actually does provide alot of endless PvE endgame.

Both games are fun but one game truly offers more endgame and thats Guildwars 2....

[Midnight Man]

This thread may get locked for comparing games - that said, I'd like to offer a few thoughts on your summary.

First point I'd make is that there are actually 3 difficulties available for WoW raids - LFR - Normal - Heroic, though your point on lockout - one downing of each boss per week is valid.

I think you also left out the fact that at maximum level, all PvE content in GW2 is still "relevant" due to downranking. This means, for example, if you missed the meta dynamic event in a level 20 zone as you levelled through, you can go back at any time and complete that DE, and find the content challenging, as downranking will bring your power into line with the event.

The same applies to zones. As an example, if I picked up a new crafting profession, and or needed to collect some copper ore in WoW, and headed to Elwynn Forest at level 85, I could ignore all the mobs there (quite literally!), and harvest (in competition with the lowbies) any copper ore I can find. In GW2, I can head back to Queensdale, but I would be downranked, and would have to fight "on level" creatures to reach the copper ore, which I could harvest (without detracting from anyone who is truly levelling & gathering, as nodes are co-operative rather than competitive).

In essence, I do agree that there is potentially more that one can choose to do at max level in GW2 if one chooses - the reason this is so is simply because of one mechanic (not saying it's bad, I think it's good!), that being downranking. More importantly, it strikes me that because of downranking, and the amount of content that "opens up" (or - perhaps better to say - keeps relevant) at max level, there is a much wider choice of things to do.

[Deleted]

This does seem to be a bit of a WoW vs GW2 thread, but Ihope people can be civil enough not to turn this into a colossal flame war.

I havent read or seen much about GW2 endgame, so I'll have to make my mind up about that when I've actually experienced it. The thing is, though, that all GW2 is end-game. You can go back to the beginner zones and still fully enjoy everything that's going on. "End game" isnt just dungeons.

By the same standard, there's some WoW things you can do at end-game (i.e. level 85) that arent raiding, such as heroic dungeons, daily quests, etc etc. That's not counting older things for achievements and such.

You make some valid points, but the style of argument you use just makes it seem like you're trying to "big up" GW2 at the expense of a few things that WoW does poorly.

[Pool of the Dead]

I can run dungeons infinitely on WoW aswell. What is your point?

[Deleted]

The problem for me would be that you don't have any motivation to go do them, it is the illusion of a lot to do that people like. why do them again after you have completed them once? You don't need to gear up for later content. I'm not trying to hate on guild wars I think I'm just a fanboy for normal raids with lockouts and gear etc. Also it just isn't the same feeling with 5 people as it is with 10, or 20, or 25 etc.

And what he said ^.

[Deleted]

Hehe you kinda forgot that wow has dungeons too.. atm like 12 or something like that lvl 85 ones.. Are they challenging .. nope they are piss easy howewer they used to be challenging when you first reached to them exept the last 3 they added that was just ridiculously easy.

Gw2 dosent have raids thats a fact but I dont mind I play MMOs for pvp my pve days are long over. I like to level a character a bit fuss around learn the game in pve see the content have fun while I'm getting used to the game. Once I get to max level I only pvp and go to 5 man dungeons only ones I find challenging.

On the other hand GW2 pve content is kind of always fresh because things are changing a poping around so you can find lots of diffrent stuff in lowbie areas thats a neat feature, but it dosent replace raids by any streatch of the imagination.

Even if wow has just 1 raid it still has more pve endgame thats for sure. Does it bother me not at all because in order for me to play wow again pandaria needs to come out and then maybe I'll come back to checkout new stuff but I think I will be playing GW2 more often.

Also bringing money as an argument is not really a good idea. You should be kind of weighting fun factor more then cost. If people find wow to be fun they will gladly play 15 bucks. So dont bring that as an argument. Wows value nowdays is more in how many friends you have there to do fun stuff with not in the game it self. Anybody that says that hes not bored of wow is either a noob or someone that has some supernatural powers to ressist the staleness of doing same thing over and over again.

[Deleted]

Also you can run lfr as much as you want anyway, so you have access to all dungeons and raids as much as you want in a week, more or less.

[vicious796]

Let's focus back in on the point, shall we? The core point is that the argument that GW2 doesn't have any end-game content is simply not true. The argument that GW2's limited end-game content has little-to-no-meaning is entirely an opinion and, IMHO, a bad one. People will find ways to be "better" than others because almost everyone loves competition.

The real question is how often will ANet come out with new "end-game" content? Will we see something every few months or only once a year? While the vast majority of the people playing GW2 will still be leveling to 80 by the end of the first 6 months, there will be folks who will have been there and done that by that time. Will ANet throw them a bone or not? Only time will tell.

[Deleted]

The problem for me would be that you don't have any motivation to go do them, it is the illusion of a lot to do that people like. why do them again after you have completed them once? You don't need to gear up for later content. I'm not trying to hate on guild wars I think I'm just a fanboy for normal raids with lockouts and gear etc. Also it just isn't the same feeling with 5 people as it is with 10, or 20, or 25 etc.

And what he said ^.

Yeah motivation... Well for quite some time while I was playing wow my main motivation is getting better "gear score". New shiny stuff and so on. But nowdays I could disenchant a legendary item without a second though. (if it could be done) I simply stoped caring for getting new gear and what happened then is that I totaly lost the interest for the game exept for pvp and even that only for fun.

What it all boils down to is that I may have become casual and that gw2 seems to offer more to a casual player. In wow if you are not logging every day you will get behind and then you will have to catch up and nobody will take you to the raid because your gear sucks and so on. So once you leave for 2 months you get in some serious trouble to catchup so you can raid on the same level as everyone else.

And the best part of the story is once I catchup with everyone I get bored of raiding so much that I cant even imagine to do another raid. Thats the wheel I was turning on for at least 6 years.

I'm not saying wow is a bad game in fact I think its awesome its just that I would like to play something fresh. Wow even with expansions becomes really sameish after month or 2 in to the expansion.

Those are just my feelings. I would love if I could enjoy wow like in the old days but I simply cannot anymore.

[Deleted]

What it all boils down to is that I may have become casual and that gw2 seems to offer more to a casual player. In wow if you are not logging every day you will get behind and then you will have to catch up and nobody will take you to the raid because your gear sucks and so on. So once you leave for 2 months you get in some serious trouble to catchup so you can raid on the same level as everyone else.

Augh, this, so much.

One of the main draws of GW2 to me is the lack of "needing" to be online every designated night for a raid. The lack of having to rely on nine or twenty-four other people, and having them rely on you. I took a few months out over summer in my last guild, and was replaced from the raiding team permanantly. When I'd gotten back, I couldnt gear up in heroics because they werent willing to take me to get the gear.

I'm going to love that I'll be able to drop in and out of GW2 when I like. I'm going to love not being guilt-tripped into doing something I dont want to to help out other people. This is 90% of the reason I cant wait for this game.

Freedom!

[Deleted]

Oh, I do agree with what yoyoyo said, the game offers a lot to casuals, and it by all means looks like a very good game, I just think it is silly when people say things like "gw2 will kill wow" because realistically, they both are very different games.

[Deleted]

I'm going to love that I'll be able to drop in and out of GW2 when I like. I'm going to love not being guilt-tripped into doing something I dont want to to help out other people. This is 90% of the reason I cant wait for this game.

Story of my life - and the reason I quit. No one in the guild has even noticed that I canceled my subscription entirely two months ago.

Now I'll just pray that eventually people will realize Guild Wars 2 (and every other game) isn't World of Warcraft so they can stop comparing and realizing each game fits a different playstyle... then everything will be well in the world.

[Hellspawnxxx]

This does seem to be a bit of a WoW vs GW2 thread, but Ihope people can be civil enough not to turn this into a colossal flame war.

I havent read or seen much about GW2 endgame, so I'll have to make my mind up about that when I've actually experienced it. The thing is, though, that all GW2 is end-game. You can go back to the beginner zones and still fully enjoy everything that's going on. "End game" isnt just dungeons.

By the same standard, there's some WoW things you can do at end-game (i.e. level 85) that arent raiding, such as heroic dungeons, daily quests, etc etc. That's not counting older things for achievements and such.

You make some valid points, but the style of argument you use just makes it seem like you're trying to "big up" GW2 at the expense of a few things that WoW does poorly.

This isnt a WoW vs GW2 thread trust me I played and Loved WoW for 6 yrs. Its just most MMO's are very simular too WoW and WoW is the most reconizable and understandable for the masses.

Id also like to point out that yes heroic dungeons can be done but most players once they are geared from heroics too run raids they stop running heroics. raids and dailys are probably the 2 dominating PvE things to do at max level. which both are on lockouts raids weekly and dailys well daily...

---------- Post added 2012-06-08 at 01:41 PM ----------

I can run dungeons infinitely on WoW aswell. What is your point?

Point is do you or most? No because most players once they obtain thier gear to start raiding they dont run dungeons anymore making heroic dungeons part of the gear treadmill and pointless. well atleast till the next raid comes out and its time to grind more heroic gear to have the required ilvl to run the current raid content.

[Vexies]

I wont be playing Guild Wars for raid content. I love raid content but I can accept GW2 for what it is. I love traditional raids, gearing up and 5 mans so thats why I will still have my traditional game to play as well. The big pull for me, other than its a fun game I have enjoyed playing is that there is no sub fee. When I want to play GW2 I can when I want to do run raids and what not I can still find that in my other game. If they both had sub fees id have to chose and It would be a issue for me that content like this is not present but it doesn't so I don't have to chose.

[Deleted]

I fail to see how you wish to defend GW2 by willingly lying/misleading people, it just looks bad.

WoW has 1~3 raids per tier with THREE difficulties (LFR, normal, heroic).

And since when is raiding the only endgame there is? Plus you include GW2's dungeons and completely ignore WoW's heroic dungeons and the upcoming challenge modes and scenarios. What about battlegrounds? RATED battlegrounds? Arenas?

When will people realize GW2 isn't aiming for the same kind of content that WoW has? Why the hell do people keep trying to attach GW2 to WoW while simultaneously arguing "it's so different". Want it to be different? Stop with these nonsensical comparisons, you're just polarizing people that would probably be willing to try both games out into "loyalty" to one or the other (much like the CoD:MW3 vs BF3 crowd).

Aren't you tired of WoW clones? Then don't try to force GW2 to be one.

EDIT: "This isn't a GW2 vs WoW thread. Here, let me spend the entire post comparing both."

[Deleted]

The problem for me would be that you don't have any motivation to go do them, it is the illusion of a lot to do that people like. why do them again after you have completed them once? You don't need to gear up for later content. I'm not trying to hate on guild wars I think I'm just a fanboy for normal raids with lockouts and gear etc. Also it just isn't the same feeling with 5 people as it is with 10, or 20, or 25 etc.

And what he said ^.

Cool skins are a motivation.
Fact is people will do dungeons again and again just to get cool looking armor and weapons, people already did it in GW1.

[Deleted]

I fail to see how you wish to defend GW2 by willingly lying/misleading people, it just looks bad.

WoW has 1~3 raids per tier with THREE difficulties (LFR, normal, heroic).

And since when is raiding the only endgame there is? Plus you include GW2's dungeons and completely ignore WoW's heroic dungeons and the upcoming challenge modes and scenarios. What about battlegrounds? RATED battlegrounds? Arenas?

When will people realize GW2 isn't aiming for the same kind of content that WoW has? Why the hell do people keep trying to attach GW2 to WoW while simultaneously arguing "it's so different". Want it to be different? Stop with these nonsensical comparisons, you're just polarizing people that would probably be willing to try both games out into "loyalty" to one or the other (much like the CoD:MW3 vs BF3 crowd).

Aren't you tired of WoW clones? Then don't try to force GW2 to be one.

EDIT: "This isn't a GW2 vs WoW thread. Here, let me spend the entire post comparing both."

Chill, no need to get riled up about it. Besides, this is a PvE endgame comparison, so arenas, rateds and bgs dont factor into it.

[Hellspawnxxx]

The problem for me would be that you don't have any motivation to go do them, it is the illusion of a lot to do that people like. why do them again after you have completed them once? You don't need to gear up for later content. I'm not trying to hate on guild wars I think I'm just a fanboy for normal raids with lockouts and gear etc. Also it just isn't the same feeling with 5 people as it is with 10, or 20, or 25 etc.

And what he said ^.

What Motivates you more, getting an item that gives you +80 spell power that makes the game easier for you till eventually the content becomes trival. One thing i noticed in WoW and I have 6 yrs in the game I KNOW, is that as you get better gear your skill level deminishes. When you first walk into a new raid its tough its challenging and the people downing the bosses are doing so based on thier skill.

As time goes by the formula fow downing bosses goes from 90% skill 10% gear too 50% gear 50% skill. I remeber some raid bosses I HAD to move out of a certain boss mechanic or id die. after i got geared I could just stand there and eat the attack as if that ability wasnt even there anymore.

What Motivates me to play Guildwars 2 is because its always challenging no matter if its your first time or 1000th time. I will never over gear the content so it never becomes a time filler, it always remains relevent content.

And in WoW nobody cared if someone had the current Tier gear. What impressed players what made peoples heads turn was seeing players with really hard to obtain titles and items exclusive to getting a super hard achievment. Like back when guilds first got ice crown achievment and you seen them on the frost drake.

I doubt anyone really deep down cares about if a piece of gear has +80 armour that does nothing but provide you with easier gameplay and doesnt display any relevent skill.

people like to be reconized for thier achievments and thier skill they want the admiration of thier peers. And in WoW there was only 1 way to do that Achievments / Titles. We didnt keep track of what guilds got what piece of loot. No we kept track of what guilds got world first / server first or Iron bound proto drakes.

Guildwars 2 is all about Skill / Titles nothing more nothing less. if you wanna test your metal and show off your prowis this is what this game offers. thats your motivation not some static variable, but a real goal to achieve personal and published.

back when i was younger we use to consider anything that provided you with more power and took away from skill cheat codes. today thier called item levels. open yourself up to other goals more motivations, then just being some number on a recount posting...

Unless power up items is your thing then so be it im not gonna say its bad or wrong, but for me my motivation is skill and prestige and thats what GW2 offers.

[Deleted]

Cool skins are a motivation.
Fact is people will do dungeons again and again just to get cool looking armor and weapons, people already did it in GW1.

Agreed.
People did work hard (or buy it in the real money shop) for cosmetic gear in Lord of the Rings: Online (you can change the way your gear looks and you can also dye it) and transmogging has proven to be a success in WoW too, so I do think people WILL be motivated to do that, and anyone saying otherwise has probably lost touch with MMO reality.

[Fencers]

I am curious what Anet will do to support the game post launch. What sort of features, services and added content can we expect and how often.