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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Tier 2: You overlooked the Atramedes fight. Assuming we'll have some more fights in a similar manner both Deadly Throw + Shuriken Toss would become rather impressive talents.
    I don't know if impressive is the right word here, but "correct" sure could be. There have been a few fights where being at range is a huge advantage over melee, and it's certainly possible that we'll see them in the future. But generally, these fights are best if you don't bring rogues to them at all, or melee in general. If shuriken + deadly makes us the best melee at range (better than say, frost DKs and enhance shaman), then I will grant that these are cool talents. If instead it just makes us better than a normal rogue, I'd say that they could be correct at times, but will really just be what you do if the fight is designed to punish guilds for having any melee that can't switch specs to something better (as say, tier 11 did).

    Tier 3: Leeching for some sustained healing (e.g. Ultraxion). Cheat Death for fights with heavy burst like Warmaster. Elusiveness would've been FANTASTIC if we actually had it for Baleroc...
    Psh. They made his mechanic ignore cloak, why not make it ignore elusiveness? I'm being petty, but only to a point. My point is that Baleroc was carefully tuned to get around the few things we could do, making us terrible (compared to other classes) at soaking up crystals. "So see, the damage is magical damage so armor doesn't help but it doesn't count as a SPELL so CLOAK can't clear or HELP but also they are DOTS so you can't stack combat readiness, and it sees through vanish because it's magical and you can't dodge it so no evasion wheeeee..." it's like playing against your little brother in a game of pretend lightsaber- you can't win that fight.

    In any event, Tier 3 has three elements, all of which will help in different situations in pve. I think this tier works correctly for all rogues. I also think it is the only tier like that.

    Tier 4: Sub will probably take Prep for the extra stealth damage boost. Other than that, there's nothing of any particular value. The speed boost could potentially be used on Hagaara HC.
    Maybe. If it actually works for real, yes, waddling into the ice sphere and pressing it would be better, maybe, than shadowstep, which lets you get on target a lot in that fight. But you do have to look really far to find fights where you would use burst.

    Tier 5: Deadly Brew, hands down.
    Probably. But it also doesn't matter. If your auxillary rogue brought the gouge talent because he pvps with it, you aren't gonna scold him, because it's a very rare fight where this will matter at all.

    Tier 6: Shuriken Toss has only had one fight in 3 tiers which it could've beeen viable for, which is pretty sad... Versatility will pretty much be the mandatory skill to have, with the exception of Tank n' Spank fights like Ultraxion, in which it doesn't have any value at all. Toss will only be used for gimmicky fights like Atramedes, in which we'll still perform rather poorly due to the low damage output of the Toss itself.

    So all in all: We get to choose between some survivability, movement skill of our choice, and depending on the fight, the choice between Versatility or Anticipation. That's rather limited... :/
    As I said, tier 3 has three choices, tier 4 has two. I'll grant that an occasional fight might reward burst.

    Final tier... you are definitely undervaluing anticipation. Lets go over what you would use for each fight in FL and DS:

    Hunter guy with two doggies: Anticipation.
    Ugly Spider Thing: Versatility
    Fat Legs: Anticipation unless your caller is bad, then versatility. But just go combat and flurry.
    Fluffer for Shadowpriests: Versatility
    Baleroc: Anticipation
    Yelly Druid: Anticipation
    Rag: Anticipation

    Morchock: Anticipation
    Yor'sahj: Depends on your job. Anticipation is better damage, Versatility if you switch to and from the slimes.
    Zon'ozz: Depends on your job again.
    Hagara: You would probably gain decent benefit from either.
    Ultrax: Anticipation
    Boatboat boat: You would probably gain decent benefit from either.
    Spine: Anticipation
    Madness: Anticipation, but you would be better at swaps with versatility.



    If your guild for some reason decides you will be swapping at all times to all things because they hate you and don't understand rogues, even then, we have 8 Anticipation fights and only 7 Versatility.

  2. #42
    Like I said, Tank n' Spank fights (Or rather, fights that only involve 1 enemy) make Versatility useless and therefore Anticipation becomes the only viable alternative we have. But viability and general usefulness are two separate matters. I still find it very underwhelming as a talent by itself, seeing as it'll function as a lesser/greater version of Ruthlessness.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Like I said, Tank n' Spank fights (Or rather, fights that only involve 1 enemy) make Versatility useless and therefore Anticipation becomes the only viable alternative we have. But viability and general usefulness are two separate matters. I still find it very underwhelming as a talent by itself, seeing as it'll function as a lesser/greater version of Ruthlessness.
    Not exactly- that was how many fights you would take it if your raid leader decides that rogues should always swap every single time, and is ok with your single target damage suffering by a bit for that. So what you do there depends a lot on your comp and your approach to fights. When we were learning Zon'ozz, for instance, it was really hard for the healers to keep people up, so I switched to an eye, and then would cleave the claw down. Later, as we got better and got equipped with a good warrior, I started spending that fight as sub and ignoring the eye, as it costs the ranged so little (especially the dot guys) to damage them down once their gear started being really great versus the eyes.

    Anyway, ruthlessness has spent this expac in a very strange place. Assassination has it, Combat 2/3rds has it, and Sub doesn't. But ruthlessness created a bunch of combo points that we won't have, thus increasing the value of combo points for A and C relative to live (even more so if finishers start doing good damage relative to other moves). The result of this is that the move has different utility to different specs:

    A- Preserves combo points, like ruthlessness. Ensures a cycle of 5 point envenoms.
    Since combo points are precious to mutilate, this is a BIG boost. Since the other moves don't directly map over, I think this will be a VERY hard talent to not spec into as mutilate.

    C- Preserves combo points, enables combo point pooling during a high energy portion of the fight.
    This isn't as big of a boost. Combat will probably be happier leaving this dps on the floor, but no rogue wants to do that unless they must.

    S- Saves your HAT proc combo points if you were the type of rogue that let that happen, allows you to pool an extra finisher for find weakness, helps with the timing if rupture and slice and want fall off at the same time.
    This spec gains the least, but the last feature listed will make it very attractive to a lot of players. The slice and dice glyph going away means that slice is more linear, which means you'll gain a better benefit from using a larger combo point slice relative to live as well, and if slice and rupture are falling off in 13 and 15 seconds respectively, you'll be much happier knowing you can pool combo points past five to refresh each one with a five pointer when the time comes.

  4. #44
    The only time Anticipation really does anything for me is while shadowblades is up and thats 12sec per 3mins. For assassination its hard to say if it will even be worth it going to 5 from 4 because of how long it takes to get another mutilate off lowering envenom uptime. Later on gear could get to the point it would be good but I dunno about the first tier in mists.

    Heres something to paint a picture of how slow assassination is at 90. At 85 without legendaries envenom is about 15-16% of your dmg because of how often you use it. At 90 its about 5-6% of your dmg and the only thing thats changed is how often you can use it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-12 at 06:36 PM ----------

    Another build and 0 changes again must be the most balanced and fun class on beta.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-06-12 at 10:35 PM.

  5. #45
    Shadow Focus and Subterfuge are really the only two talents that jazz up Rogues playstyle. BoS deserves a mention as well as Leeching, but yeah tier 1 stands out compared to the rest of the tree. I am not sure if that is intended, but I hope they consider making the other tiers more interesting...I hope.

  6. #46
    They updated the MOP talent calculator by the way. It now also presents the possible Glyph choices you currently have.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mis...-specification

    The minor glyphs are somewhat meh. The Killing Spree and Slow Fall glyphs are pretty good, situationally speaking. And the theory-crafters will probably be quick to determine whether the SS and Vendetta glyphs would pay off to use. But apart from those, there's not much of PVE interest or even superficial interest. The pickpocket glyph might work out for some people, but it seems more like a fad just like the "glowing orb" thingy.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    They updated the MOP talent calculator by the way. It now also presents the possible Glyph choices you currently have.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mis...-specification

    The minor glyphs are somewhat meh. The Killing Spree and Slow Fall glyphs are pretty good, situationally speaking. And the theory-crafters will probably be quick to determine whether the SS and Vendetta glyphs would pay off to use. But apart from those, there's not much of PVE interest or even superficial interest. The pickpocket glyph might work out for some people, but it seems more like a fad just like the "glowing orb" thingy.
    Ambush - Without Waylay not useful in PVP and in PVE you want to be melee range to maximize DPS. Not a good glyph
    Blade Furry - With Leeching Poison this may have value in PVE.
    Blind - Mainly PVP
    Cheap Shot - 1 second increase to cheap shot isn't worth a major slot IMO.
    CloS - Not bad.
    Crip Poison - Okay
    Deadly Momentum - Pretty good
    Debilitation - In theory sounds good, but given energy woes and CP generation Eviscerates and Envenoms are not frequent enough for this glyph to matter.
    Evasion - Okay
    Expose Armor - First really good major glyph
    Feint - Mainly PVP
    Garrote - Solid for PVP
    Gouge - PVP utility
    Kick - Opportunity cost is too high
    Recuperate - Not worth a major
    Sap - Okay
    Shadow Walk - Depends (PVP)
    Shiv - Might be mandatory for PVP
    Sinister Strike -This glyph is a trap for inexperienced players. This is pretty much bad for PVE and PVP because of damaging finisher synergy with Restless Blades. In other words, you don't want to slow down your CP generation. All around this may be worse than the Ambush glyph in terms of usefulness.
    Smoke Bomb - May prove useful for PVP
    Sprint - Solid choice
    Stealth - Should bake it in with Nightstalker talent
    Vanish - Very good
    Vendetta - Another trap glyph bad for PVE and PVP in most circumstances.

  8. #48
    New patch rogue changes :
    Shadow Walk : Significantly increases Stealth effectiveness for 6 sec, but causes Stealth to be nerfed to justify its usage. In addition, it uses old Enveloping Shadows icon and has no sound, animation or spell effect to show that the skill is actually doing something.

  9. #49
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sendai View Post
    New patch rogue changes :
    I wasn't worried for the last few beta builds where we got no changes or very little. I'm very optimistic at times, but fuck me. Now I'm worried.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Sinister Strike -This glyph is a trap for inexperienced players. This is pretty much bad for PVE and PVP because of damaging finisher synergy with Restless Blades. In other words, you don't want to slow down your CP generation. All around this may be worse than the Ambush glyph in terms of usefulness.
    I think it should be changed to "While under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, your Sinister Strike..." Since there's no AR glyph...

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Merope View Post
    I think it should be changed to "While under the effects of Adrenaline Rush, your Sinister Strike..." Since there's no AR glyph...
    They won't do that. If they did, it'd become an obvious DPS increase, thus making it a mandatory glyph for any Combat rogue. They don't want that. They want choices to be made, with personal interest in mind. However, by doing so they're essentially neglecting nigh the entire PVE community. The PVE'ing player's choices are all being reduced dramatically by the simple fact that he's PVE'ing. The only choices that matter to him are the ones that can change numbers, and if there aren't any of those it'll be the choices that help improve quality of life issues and indirectly change numbers. With that in mind, a PVE rogue would most likely choose the following Majors:

    Sprint - For the added mobility
    Deadly Momentum - for the possible free SnD refresh
    Expose Armor - Unless a warrior or similar is present
    Blade Flurry - If you don't need Expose Armor

    That's about all the choices you have. The only way around this, is if they introduce a lot of gimmicky content that for some reason would require you to have a longer silence, a slow, etc...... Personally, I hope they don't take that route, it would just seem like a cheap way to force the new system.

    EDIT: As for minor glyphs...

    Killing Spree - Quality of life change
    Safe Fall - Quality of Life change
    Tricks of the Trade - Possible dps increase, depending on your energy reg. rate.
    Faster poison application - Quality of Life change
    Last edited by Incineration; 2012-06-13 at 05:19 PM.

  12. #52
    With the introduction of Subterfuge and Shadow Focus I thought it would be a good opportunity to do something different with the Ambush glyph. Yes they don't want Sinister Strike to be an obvious DPS increase making it mandatory, but the other extreme is being pushed. It is not desirable as a leveling glyph, PVE or PVP. Compared to the other glyphs Sinister Strike is a clear DPS decrease.

    Ambush, Blade Furry, Sinister Strike, and Vendetta are, from my view, the glyphs I think are underwhelming and need massive makeovers at the drawing board.

    As for minor glyphs, the Killing Spree glyph can be a disadvantage given you no longer travel with a moving target, but some players want it to be reliable so as a minor this is really good.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    With the introduction of Subterfuge and Shadow Focus I thought it would be a good opportunity to do something different with the Ambush glyph. Yes they don't want Sinister Strike to be an obvious DPS increase making it mandatory, but the other extreme is being pushed. It is not desirable as a leveling glyph, PVE or PVP.

    Ambush, Blade Furry, Sinister Strike, and Vendetta are, from my view, the glyphs I think are underwhelming and need massive makeovers at the drawing board.

    As for minor glyphs, the Killing Spree glyph can be a disadvantage given you no longer travel with a moving target, but some players want it to be reliable so as a minor this is really good.
    As mentioned, the KS glyph is just a QOL glyph. It's usefulness depends on the fight. Wouldn't use it for Hagaara. Would love it for Ultraxion.

    The problem of giving the mentioned skills a makeover is a problem due to their new design philosophy... They want them to be interesting and desirable, but not be obvious choices. Therefore, actually making them desirable (especially for the PVE crowd) poses a rather tough challenge. One they've failed so far, in my opinion...
    Last edited by Incineration; 2012-06-13 at 05:18 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    Hemorrhage - Not exactly sure what it does in practice...
    They reverted the (stupid) change where Hemo would only add the bleed damage if a target was already effected by a bleed. Now Hemo works exactly like it does on live bar numbers.

    With that glyph however, you can make Hemo act like it did on the beta not that long ago. Long story short, you want this glyph if you need to use Hemo on targets you need to be able to CC later without having the DoT break the CCs. I'd say it's a PvP glyph.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    They reverted the (stupid) change where Hemo would only add the bleed damage if a target was already effected by a bleed. Now Hemo works exactly like it does on live bar numbers.

    With that glyph however, you can make Hemo act like it did on the beta not that long ago. Long story short, you want this glyph if you need to use Hemo on targets you need to be able to CC later without having the DoT break the CCs. I'd say it's a PvP glyph.
    Oh, very well. That makes it useless for a PVE'ing rouge then... I'll remove it from my list.

    EDIT: Although, if they would roll Backstab into Hemo, I.e. give us one single CP generator, have that generator apply the Hemo dot if Rupture is on the target, and remove the 25% damage loss thing from SV, it would streamline and simplify our rotation without robbing us of too much damage or mobility.

    I never understood the need for 2 CP generators for Sub anyway. Hemo seems out of place in my opinion.
    Last edited by Incineration; 2012-06-13 at 05:24 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    As mentioned, the KS glyph is just a QOL glyph.
    The question is why doesn't killing spree just work this way base? Do they think rogues enjoy the lets see if this kills me every tier? The fact they left the random jumping base and made this a glyph option to me looks like they must think most rogues enjoy random death.
    Last edited by wow; 2012-06-13 at 05:34 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    The question is why doesn't killing spree just work this way base? Do they think rogues enjoy the lets see if this kills me every tier? The fact they left the random jumping base and made this a glyph option to me looks like they must think most rogues enjoy random death.
    They want it to be an option for Rogues that want to keep the mobility aspect of Kspree, so this is a compromise.

    "I never understood the need for 2 CP generators for Sub anyway. Hemo seems out of place in my opinion."

    Well, we will find out soon enough what they have in store for Backstab and Ambush when the number tuning phase kicks in soon enough, but Hemo is supposed to be used when you can't be behind the target...that is the thought behind it. Big reason why Garrote no longer has a position requirement, but only Ambush still has this.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post
    I never understood the need for 2 CP generators for Sub anyway. Hemo seems out of place in my opinion.
    Eh, my first main character and the character I played throughout Wrath was a Feral Druid. As a feral you would Shred (aka Backstab) whenever possible and Mangle (aka Hemo) if you couldn't Shred. In Wrath there were so many bosses who simply didn't have a backside or made it near-impossible to actually use Shred effectively so I completely understand Blizzard's design choice on this one. We are just lucky in Cataclysm using Backstab or Shred isn't that much of an issue as it used to be in Wrath.

    But I agree it would seem weird at first.
    Bovan.9481
    Completed legendaries: Twilight, Sunrise, (Eternity), Incinerator, Bolt, Quip, Frostfang, The Moot, The Juggernaut, Howler.
    Current projects: Predator and Aether.

  19. #59
    Lots of changes last beta build huh?

    I'm starting to assume Blizz thinks we are completely fine by now - we aren't in a terrible shape, but no near to being fine imho.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovan View Post
    Eh, my first main character and the character I played throughout Wrath was a Feral Druid. As a feral you would Shred (aka Backstab) whenever possible and Mangle (aka Hemo) if you couldn't Shred. In Wrath there were so many bosses who simply didn't have a backside or made it near-impossible to actually use Shred effectively so I completely understand Blizzard's design choice on this one. We are just lucky in Cataclysm using Backstab or Shred isn't that much of an issue as it used to be in Wrath.

    But I agree it would seem weird at first.
    Well, in that case it just seems like a retarded "fix" for a somewhat serious problem. They're not addressing the actual issue, but just working around it.
    The obvious fix is obvious - Remove the positional requirement. It's not actually needed and is entirely pointless. Not to mention unfair. The DK community would cry out in anguish if Obliterate would require you to be behind a target. Why should rogues and ferals be hindered by it if no one else is?

    This strengthens my previous suggestion:
    - Combine Backstab and Hemo into a CP generator that doesn't have a positional req. Does Backstabs damage and brings the 1 min. bleed-debuff from Hemo.
    - Change SV. If Rupture is present on the target, SV will convert 30% of the damage from your abilities into a bleed on the target.

    The numbers aren't set in stone, of course... But you get the general gist of the idea. Sounds a lot better to me than the current version.
    Last edited by Incineration; 2012-06-13 at 07:30 PM.

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