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  1. #1

    Heroic dungeons dumbed down

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are no level 90 regular dungeons.

    The Mists of Pandaria heroic dungeons are easier than the Cataclysm heroic dungeons.* Once we made that decision, we thought that having two versions of the level 90 dungeons (normal and heroic) didn't make sense because they would be very similar in difficulty and offer similar loot. We thought about calling them something besides "heroic," since heroic tends to mean hard to a lot of players, but we also needed to call them something, because some dungeons like Temple of the Jade Serpent have a lower-level and a level 90 version. We thought about calling them "level 90 versions" but figured "heroic" required less explanation. (We also could have dispensed with lower level dungeons, or made lower level versions of the level 90 dungeons, but we felt like both solutions were just to make the nomenclature of "heroic" more clear, which seemed like bad reasons.)

    TLDR: Some Mists of Pandaria dungeons have lower level and level 90 versions. Others just have level 90 versions. In both cases, the level 90 versions are called "heroic."

    * - If you like very difficult dungeons, Challenge Modes are targeted at you.
    Oh boy.

    Welfare epics here we come.
    Last edited by FishHead; 2012-06-13 at 12:46 AM.

  2. #2
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    This is the exact same style of dungeon used for Wrath.

    But how wonderful you brought back the term for T9 gear as well.
    Permanently unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    Been a fun run guys, but the game's officially moved into the "Milk the Playerbase" phase. And I for one don't intend to stick around as the cost of expansions go up, content in them goes down, and raids become further and further apart.
    Maybe I'll be back for WoW2, but probably not. - Slowpoke, the former Dokhidamo

  3. #3
    good post man

  4. #4
    Warchief
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    Blue items with a heroic tag aren't epics.

  5. #5
    This means "Easier than Cata launch dungeons" not "Easier than Cata dungeons while running them in Best in Slot Raid Gear"

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FishHead View Post
    Oh boy.

    Welfare epics here we come.
    With LFR introduction and the Zul dungeons debacle, it was more than expected. Heck, 4.3 dungeons were a perfect example of it.

    Not that I against the new model, quite the opposite. The challenge is indeed on the challenge modes.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    I welcome back wrath heroic, the start of cata 5mans were bad. The last thing i wanta do is come home from work and spend 2 hours in a shitty 5man to get BLUE gear. I wanta get on do a few 20min 5mans then raid. There is a reason they are adding Challenge Modes yet you still bother to make these posts.
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  8. #8
    They said many, many months ago that the dungeons are going to be Wrath like difficulty...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tauror View Post
    With LFR introduction and the Zul dungeons debacle, it was more than expected. Heck, 4.3 dungeons were a perfect example of it.

    Not that I against the new model, quite the opposite. The challenge is indeed on the challenge modes.
    I would agree if challenge modes rewarded actual gear rather than purely aesthetic gear.

  10. #10
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    I welcome back wrath heroic, the start of cata 5mans were bad. The last thing i wanta do is come home from work is spend 2 hours in a shitty 5man to get BLUE gear. I wanta get on do a few 20min 5mans then raid. There is a reason they are adding Challenge Modes yet you still bother to make these posts.
    Cata 5-mans started just plain long, then became just plain impossible in 4.1. Thank goodness we're going back to the days when wiping should happen, but shouldn't be the rule of thumb.
    Permanently unsubscribed as of 03/10/2014.

    Been a fun run guys, but the game's officially moved into the "Milk the Playerbase" phase. And I for one don't intend to stick around as the cost of expansions go up, content in them goes down, and raids become further and further apart.
    Maybe I'll be back for WoW2, but probably not. - Slowpoke, the former Dokhidamo

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FishHead View Post
    I would agree if challenge modes rewarded actual gear rather than purely aesthetic gear.
    Again, the LFR defeats the purpose of "hard" dungeons.

    People want fast dungeoning so they can raid afterwards, not to be stuck ad nausea in streak of LFD bad luck.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Blue items with a heroic tag aren't epics.
    This, and with the way enchanting materials can now be upgraded from one step to the next there won't be a need to make dungeons drop anything else but blue heroic items, like the Zandalari dungeons forced because there was such an enormous lack of maelstrom crystals.

    My guess is in Mists you will again only get epics from raids or very rare world drops. You should be celebrating

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    This means "Easier than Cata launch dungeons" not "Easier than Cata dungeons while running them in Best in Slot Raid Gear"
    Cata launch heroics were already pretty easy if you used a little bit of sense... If people couldn't do them well get more gear or learn to play, simple as that.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by tylenol View Post
    They said many, many months ago that the dungeons are going to be Wrath like difficulty...
    This. We've known this all for some time.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    Cata 5-mans started just plain long, then became just plain impossible in 4.1. Thank goodness we're going back to the days when wiping should happen, but shouldn't be the rule of thumb.
    Thanks for agreeing with me. People think of wrath heroics from when we did them in icc gear which made them fast. At the start of wrath is how heroics should be. Not over the top hard and long like cata but smooth, fast and most of all fun with a small chance of wiping. Which most people seem to agree is that 5mans at the start of wrath were fun. It is only a small minority that what them hard.

    I don't see what peoples problems are with what this guys called them "wellfare epics". There is heroic raiding gear for those who want to flaunt there gear. I can bet the op is no where gear full bis heroic ds gear. I am and i could not care less what gear a casual player can get. They should be able to get full epics without having to raid. And for as long as there has been hardmode gear it has vastly out geared 5man epics. So even if you get your peak off topping the meters you still can. Now more then ever people don't even notice your heroic or 5man gear since there is transmog.

    For the record i have played from vanilla so yes i know all about bc heroics. They were fun, but not so fun for casual players which now make up the bulk of players. Hardcore raiders are now a very small minority of the player base there for they should make more stuff casuals are able to do.
    Last edited by Airwaves; 2012-06-13 at 01:03 AM.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FishHead View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    There are no level 90 regular dungeons.

    The Mists of Pandaria heroic dungeons are easier than the Cataclysm heroic dungeons.* Once we made that decision, we thought that having two versions of the level 90 dungeons (normal and heroic) didn't make sense because they would be very similar in difficulty and offer similar loot. We thought about calling them something besides "heroic," since heroic tends to mean hard to a lot of players, but we also needed to call them something, because some dungeons like Temple of the Jade Serpent have a lower-level and a level 90 version. We thought about calling them "level 90 versions" but figured "heroic" required less explanation. (We also could have dispensed with lower level dungeons, or made lower level versions of the level 90 dungeons, but we felt like both solutions were just to make the nomenclature of "heroic" more clear, which seemed like bad reasons.)

    TLDR: Some Mists of Pandaria dungeons have lower level and level 90 versions. Others just have level 90 versions. In both cases, the level 90 versions are called "heroic."

    * - If you like very difficult dungeons, Challenge Modes are targeted at you.
    Oddly thou, The Burning Crusade had multiple level 70 Dungeons (both Normal and Heroic), and both had DIFFERENT loot tables. Hell, the entirety of The Tempest Keep (Arcatraz, Botanica, Mechanar) required players to be level 70, since the only way to access the place back then, was to fly in. I don't mind them making dungeons more accessable (Cata dungeons were a HUGE climb, from the WotLK dungeons). Personally, I thought Dungeons/Heroics were handled best during The Burning Crusade.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aralevara View Post
    Cata launch heroics were already pretty easy if you used a little bit of sense... If people couldn't do them well get more gear or learn to play, simple as that.
    Mm, I'll partly agree here, I did them as a premade 5 man group with a decent geared priest and a tank in 335 or something + 3 dps (including me) who barely reached the requirement. The first time we did SFK and ToT with that group we instantly cleared the achievements with no sweat aswell.

    The problem is ofcourse that the dungeons should work out for people queing for the dungeon finder. Even now I still skip the dragon boss in Grim'Batol just because people keep dying on it. Same for the beam boss in BRC, so looking at the dungeons like that I kinda welcome the WotLK level of difficuly I guess. Challenge modes should be around the difficulty of cata HCs in 329 gear, so they'll be challenging and probably won't be doable with an average (as in atleast 1 semi leecher) pug.

  18. #18
    We've known this for a long time now. As the blue said, that's what Challenge modes are for if you're interested in challenge and exclusive gear.

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  19. #19
    Warchief snuzzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    This is the exact same style of dungeon used for Wrath.
    No it isn't, it's just how most people remember them because of the huge gear inflation and the commonness of super high level epics.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by FishHead View Post
    Welfare epics here we come.
    As far as I'm aware lv90 heroics drop blue items.

    I'd also like to highlight this:

    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If you like very difficult dungeons, Challenge Modes are targeted at you.

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