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  1. #701
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    They stopped making lvl capped dungeons because nobody runs them. If there were lvl 90 normal dungeons ppl might run it once or twice tops in normal before they would move onto heroics, with many just skipping the normal mode all together. Why set up loot tables and mechanics for a dungeon that isn't going to be ran at all? Isn't it better to have them spend the time that would have taken on the heroics or other dungeons or anything really?
    In case you didn't notice, normal mode DUNGEONs had the same loot tables as heroics simply deflated ilvl items, and derped down mecanics similar to lfr/normal-mode.
    Besides, people dodge normal DUNGEONs becase:
    1) for some stupid reason PvP gear is consided valid by lfd tool
    2) gear in bags too, even if it's of the wrong role (ie: int plate for a tank/dps paladin) or even the wrong kind (ie: cloth gear for a paladin)
    3) extreme ease of getting purple gear (thrall quest, molten front 1st day dailies, 372 justics gear, overflowing ah crafts and raid BoE)

    Fix any (better : all ! though #3 is hard to "fix" in 4.3... maybe if only 4.3 DUNGEONs gave valor...) and you'd see more people doing normals...
    And more QQ about being forced to do normals too i guess...

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    IIRC, heroics weren't gatekeepers to anything. You only needed to do a handful of normal runs to get attuned to Kara which was doable with normal dungeon/leveling gear. The only reason to really grind the rep was for the faction rewards.
    Until you needed to run Heroic SL, SV, SH, and Arcatraz to get into T5 content...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    I enjoyed it, most probably did on their first level 70 character, it didn't really take long and it just felt like a better line of progression.

    However, when it came to alts, it was shit.

    I would like this sort of system again, but it has to be account wide or it will just be horrid.

    I'm not expecting them to go anywhere near this system again though, which I don't understand as it keeps you playing the game longer.
    People notice when things are setup to act as a deliberate time sink which is how they were setup in TBC.

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    That is a good point too. I honestly can't recall a time when I ran NORMAL Arcatraz, Mechanaar and such.
    If you wanted a heroic key on a toon, you ran them quite a few times (10+ dungeons total per toon) for each toon up until the change to honored keys. After that, of course, the toon hopes to never step foot in normal again....shatar was one of the reps you didn't have a non-binding turn-in item/mob you could farm or buy to get extra rep (e.g. arrakoa feathers, plant parts, naga and shattered hand kills, etc), just quests (including the arca key quest) and dungeons.....

    bc game design had a place for normal 70 dungeons - to gear up for karazhan and to some degree heroics. the entire process took long enough that it made sense, whether a particular poster liked it or not. today, as I understand the system, you gear up so quickly in the 15-minute dungeon snacks that the point of having a separate tier of 85 content does seem pointless.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-18 at 02:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cows For Life View Post
    People notice when things are setup to act as a deliberate time sink which is how they were setup in TBC.
    People noticed, and the western sub base just kept growing and growing in spite of these time sinks. the game is now below western subs levels from 4 years ago. In othe words, more people were playing late tbc with long leveling and hard, brain-required dungeons when run at gear/level, than are playing the game now.
    Last edited by Deficineiron; 2012-06-18 at 02:52 AM.
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  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    If you wanted a heroic key on a toon, you ran them quite a few times (10+ dungeons total per toon) for each toon up until the change to honored keys. After that, of course, the toon hopes to never step foot in normal again....
    /snaps fingers!

    That's right! I was trying to remember how that worked. I'm a one-toon kinda guy so I literally did that in the first few months of BC... it also didn't help that I was a rogue... so heroic keys didn't matter that much to me! It was fun to be temporarily popular then for lockpicking, Particularly when the key to Mechanaar was initially bugged! ^_^
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  5. #705
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    People noticed, and the western sub base just kept growing and growing in spite of these time sinks. the game is now below western subs levels from 4 years ago. In othe words, more people were playing late tbc with long leveling and hard, brain-required dungeons when run at gear/level, than are playing the game now.
    Late TBC had the benefit of badge gear and nerfed heroics/entrance requirements, nerfed raid attunements, among other things added mid expansion.
    Last edited by Cows For Life; 2012-06-18 at 03:18 AM.

  6. #706
    Mechagnome PHOENIXZERO's Avatar
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    There are plenty of reasons why so many left in Cataclysm, the abrupt changes from Wrath was a big part of it, people who started playing WoW part way into Wrath when it was easier to gear up weren't use to the experience of starting at square one and failed to adapt, it also didn't help that the 5 mans were much harder than most of the Wrath 5M, the whole cross realm community crap certainly didn't help. Hardly anyone wanted to tank or heal randoms which is why they introduced Oculus like bribes to LFD to get more of each to queue. Stress and taking abuse in a ****ing five man with a bunch of random, potential d-bags is not fun.

    I can't express enough how much I look forward to going back to 20-30 minute dungeons. I might actually queue for randoms alone again knowing I won't be stuck in there for an hour or two if I want to see the end of it. That shit was... Not.... Fun.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    People noticed, and the western sub base just kept growing and growing in spite of these time sinks. the game is now below western subs levels from 4 years ago. In othe words, more people were playing late tbc with long leveling and hard, brain-required dungeons when run at gear/level, than are playing the game now.
    ..and to use your totally amazing sense of logic that doesn't twist or spin ANY factual data into something that it's not... TBC and Vanilla players are LONG gone and haven't played in about 2 years... because Blizz revealed at the ECTS in 2011 that there were more canceled WoW subs than active subs... which translates to over 12 million INACTIVE subs durring Cataclysm. Meaning there were MORE canceled subs now than there were TBC players. So, using your logic, those MUST be the TBC and Vanilla players canceled... and today are JUST Wrath-players - right? :P
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  8. #708
    Us as players have no proof as to why subs dropped in Cata. Only Blizz has the data to make and educated guess.

    For all we know Obama being elected made players not wanna play WoW anymore.

    I dont really care about this, I just want Blizz to not call easy mode dungeons as "heroic"
    Last edited by Adlen; 2012-06-18 at 03:32 AM.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by Adlen View Post
    Us as players have no proof as to why subs dropped in Cata. Only Blizz has the data to make and educated guess.

    For all we know Obama being elected made players not wanna play WoW anymore.
    And there... my friend... you are wrong. (and not just about the Obama bit :P)

    I've got at least ONE clear-cut piece of evidence that a player can easily show that Cata expansion was the reason for the drops in subs, and not some "sudden onset 7 year burnout" theory that people have.

    That evidence is called Cataclysm's release in China.

    You see, China did NOT get Cataclysm until Q3 of 2011. They were on Wrath the whole time until 3rd quarter. So, here's a little history lesson...

    Cata launches in USA - first quarter numbers drop 500k
    2nd quarter - 300k lost...
    Cata launches in China - 800k loss in subs - Blizzard flat-out says in their conference call that, this time, the MAJORITY OF THE LOSSES THIS QUARTER WAS FROM CHINA!

    What was amazing was Blizz, and indeed most people on the forums, expected a massive SURGE in Q3 numbers due to Cata being released in China... well GUESS what happened INSTEAD! :P

    Why is it wherever Cataclysm lands, a massive outbreak of unsubscribing happens? :P

    Also.. as you say... Only Blizz has the data... and by judging by the changes in 4.3 and in MoP - I think it's pretty DAMN clear what Blizz believes the loss of subs seem to stem from. :P
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  10. #710
    I dont really care if content is easy or harder.
    All i want is for Blizz to make a decision. and then leave it at that.

    When content is released, its difficulty should not be fucked with all these nerfs.
    If Blizzard wanted it to be easier, than nerf it at the very beginning. Thats the thing that pisses me off about all this.

    Making it easier is un-fair to people who have already killed things.
    Making it harder makes it un-fai to people who have yet to kill things.

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Adlen View Post
    Making it easier is un-fair to people who have already killed things.
    Making it harder makes it un-fai to people who have yet to kill things.
    Does going back and soloing Karazan today make your experience back then any less? So, why would a 5% nerf then effect you in a few months later?

    And I REALLY don't think the majority of people who haven't killed certain bosses feel its un-fair to them. Most are probably saying "THANK GOD we can finally move on from that cockblock boss!"
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Does going back and soloing Karazan today make your experience back then any less? So, why would a 5% nerf then effect you in a few months later?

    And I REALLY don't think the majority of people who haven't killed certain bosses feel its un-fair to them. Most are probably saying "THANK GOD we can finally move on from that cockblock boss!"
    because its the differance between nerfing content while it is current and when its over.

    Its like why should I have to put in X amount of effort to do something.
    But someone else only had to do X-25% to do it.

    I can respect people who killa boss on their own skill and initiative.
    But if it gets to a point where Blizz is killing the boss for you, then i despise you

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Adlen View Post
    because its the differance between nerfing content while it is current and when its over.

    Its like why should I have to put in X amount of effort to do something.
    But someone else only had to do X-25% to do it 8 months later.
    Fixed that for ya...
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    This means "Easier than Cata launch dungeons" not "Easier than Cata dungeons while running them in Best in Slot Raid Gear"
    They weren't hard even the first 3 weeks to a month in, in Wrath gear. Calm down Sally.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Fixed that for ya...
    in those 8 months is the tier over and a new tier availiable, then im fine with that.

    But if the tier is still current, then its difficulty should not be fucked with

  16. #716
    Mechagnome Hexotic's Avatar
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    oh man, i saw this post coming....

    Dungeons r too hard and long... KK, well make em short and easy - wrath comes out
    These dungeons r too ez, QQ... KK, well make em longer and add some challenges to them - cata comes out
    OMG QQ these dungeons are waay too long, I hate them... KK, well make them short again and make them easier - end of cata
    QQ these dungeons are too easy and dumbed down...

    This is a general breakdown of what I've seen over these past few years. There is no pleasing the wow community...

    Hope you dont consider this message a troll, not my intention at all, I just find it dumb that every expansion we get this type of post...

  17. #717
    Bloodsail Admiral Goatfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adlen View Post
    and hence the realization that what most people consider an "average" player is actually pretty elite

    and most WoW players are alot worse than they realize
    I think this might only apply the middle class so to speak. Most Upper tier players, especially if they are involved in the recruiting process, realize that the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexotic View Post
    oh man, i saw this post coming....

    Dungeons r too hard and long... KK, well make em short and easy - wrath comes out
    Honestly I don't remember anybody at all at all asking for this in BC... in fact, Wrath dungeons were kinda on par with BC at launch (hell, I remember when the bronzebeard defense was possible to overwhelm you with adds!). They didn't become EZ until LFD happened and they started gearmatching us. Up till that point people were DREADING the news about LFD as they were picturing nothing but hour+ long wipefests with pugs (which ironically pretty much happened with Cata Launch).

    Funny how our memory of history becomes clouded...
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBos View Post
    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  19. #719
    Mechagnome ayashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.
    I belive this has been the most accurate and constructive post posted today!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goatfish View Post
    the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.

  20. #720
    I'd like to point out that there is not one monolithic quality of "difficulty", and that different things can be difficult for different reasons.

    Just to deflect ad hominen attacks that are obviously going to come, I personally dinged 85 early on in the 2nd day Cata was out, and was clearing the heroics routinely that very night. So anyone claiming "bad" on this opinion frankly can go troll elsewhere. So here goes.

    Cata Heroics had difficulty because the design was stupid.

    - healers couldn't use key spells in their toolkit practically at all without being scared of going oom immediately
    - secondary stat scaling was so harsh once you dinged 85, that dps players were struggling to even match the dps that they pulled in the 80 endgame
    - in almost every single circumstance, the specific boss encounters that were difficult was because they were far too comp sensitive, for example on the second day of launch, try clearing the first boss in heroic stonecore without two ranged dps. (good luck with that!) Try clearing the first boss in SFK at launch without two interrupters or at least a tank that could interrupt (which paladins could not reliably), again good luck with that!

    My conclusion from playing the entry-level cata endgame content is simply this --

    Difficulty that arises from the game simply not giving you the chance to succeed with good play is not legitimate difficulty. It is the designers being stupid. There is nothing about that to glamorize.

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