Heroic dungeons dumbed down

[Sylvre]

I am not asking for anything like what you have said. It is Blizzard's job to tailor to a specific audience and stick with them. Cataclysm attempted to cater to everyone, yet in the end catered to no one. Blizzard alienated many players when they changed gears in WotLK, and again when they changed gears in Cataclysm. I am not asking for Blizzard to cater to me specifically, I am imploring them to pick a side and stick with it (preferably the side I am on, obviously).

Let's not pretend there is anything like the range of difficulty you just described. We have heroic mode raids which are very difficult and normal mode raids which are moderately difficult. The other 70% of the game has either been made very easy or trivialized into nothingness. There is a huge imbalance here. And if I am expected to just seek out and be content with that 30% of the game that is actually challenging, then what point is there in paying for the greater game in the first place?

Cataclysm catered to no one? Well that's a pretty bold statement. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I seem to remember some statistic fromboth MMO and blue posts that these raid tiers have been seen by more of the player base than previous tiers. Just because it didn't cater to you, doesn't mean it catered to no one.

And yes, of course you are supposed to seek out the parts of the game that are actually challenging. Whether your content with that or not is your own personal problem. But complaining about how the parts of the game you want to play don't fit your definition of challenge is the defintion of being self-centered. Technically, Blizzard has zero accountability to the player base. They can do whatever the hell they want. They certainly have zero accountability to you.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Blizzard to create a game that perfectly fits what you want because it's never going to happen. If you don't enjoy the game for what it is, stop paying and move on. I fail to see how complaining about how it doesn't fit your narrow standards is a productive use of time.

[Invictus9001]

I looked at the quoted initial post, and the OPs words.

I've always had an issue with the term "welfare epics" being flung around. If a person or group of people clear a dungeon (or dungeons), a raid (or raids) and get items they can use, it's no different than the normal leveling process just because you're talking max-level. The only difference is that bosses in lower level dungeons don't have loot tables deliberately set to having nothing but epic quality items. If a person (or group of people) earns points by killing bosses and clearing dungeons, or even by doing quests, and then redeem the points towards buying gear, that person/those people had to make an effort to do something to earn the points and thus their gear. Even the new model of hoping to get a base drop then earning points to boost the item level and stats is reasonable, to me. Effort never has, nor will it ever, equal welfare. The day someone starts getting epics via the in-game mailbox without achieving anything, without doing anything other than opening his/her mail, THEN someone can scream bloody welfare epics.

Blizzard heard people say they wanted harder dungeons after what turned into Faceroll of the Lich King by the time Wrath was over. (I personally felt the dungeons had a somewhat challenging level of difficulty while doing them at level and when not over-gearing them to sin; but, that's just my opinion - YMMV.) Blizzard provided their attempt at creating more challenge with the Cataclysm dungeon experience (which I personally enjoyed a lot) - and subsequently the facerollers got steamrolled by the content, flung obscenities at fellow party members and pointed blame-fingers before rage-quitting and going to the forums to drown their sorrows in QQ-threads. Now, thanks to that, Blizzard appears to be making a hasty retreat back to "less challenging" content and stating that the truly difficult/challenging content is "in the challenge modes". <insert facepalm picture of choice here> I cannot say, obviously, how the difficulty of MoP dungeons will compare to Cataclysm, Wrath or anything else right now. Yet, I can say it seems a bit disheartening to go from Blizzard proactively pushing for more CC/group cooperation and back to "chainpull, round up, and AOE" style encounters. I honestly hope the surface impression is wrong, and I approach the future with both caution and curiosity, along with a healthy dose of pessimism.

[HeedmySpeed]

I've always had an issue with the term "welfare epics" being flung around.

I cannot say, obviously, how the difficulty of MoP dungeons will compare to Cataclysm, Wrath or anything else right now. Yet, I can say it seems a bit disheartening to go from Blizzard proactively pushing for more CC/group cooperation and back to "chainpull, round up, and AOE" style encounters. I honestly hope the surface impression is wrong, and I approach the future with both caution and curiosity, along with a healthy dose of pessimism.

Think about what the word "epic" means? Or at least, what it USE to mean, what the INTENT of "EPIC" quality items was.
See today "epic quality" items are just a label that means "this gear has more stats than level 84 gear.
Am I the only one who had friends who played WoW before them and use to talk about "epic" items?

Well anyways, I agree about your second statement. I started playing WoW at the start of Cataclysm and I really enjoyed it. I had been kicked from my fair share of pugs because of how clueless I was (Lava Bursting as Enhancement Shaman!!! :P). But I didn't bitch out and stop playing. I approached the dungeons like puzzles. Hard at first but GODDAMN was it rewarding when I improved.

I really hope the "challenge" will be there in MoP and that it yields appropriate rewards.

[Invictus9001]

Think about what the word "epic" means? Or at least, what it USE to mean, what the INTENT of "EPIC" quality items was. See today "epic quality" items are just a label that means "this gear has more stats than level 84 gear. Am I the only one who had friends who played WoW before them and use to talk about "epic" items?

Well anyways, I agree about your second statement. I started playing WoW at the start of Cataclysm and I really enjoyed it. I had been kicked from my fair share of pugs because of how clueless I was (Lava Bursting as Enhancement Shaman!!! :P). But I didn't bitch out and stop playing. I approached the dungeons like puzzles. Hard at first but GODDAMN was it rewarding when I improved. I really hope the "challenge" will be there in MoP and that it yields appropriate rewards.

I know what epic means in every sense of the word. Epic experience of overcoming a hard encounter to get phat lewts. Epic quality items (i.e., phat lewts) that have stats better than gear lower level than it AND that come from epic encounters that make you think "how the hell did we pull that off and not die?" Epic in finding a group that actually didn't just stand in the fire/forgot to pop CDs / actually bothered to CC and survive an otherwise hellish encounter. Epic in finding a group that didn't consist of dps-meter whores when the boss didn't have an enrage timer of any sort, that actually communicated with one another in order to clear an encounter. Trust me, I know. :P

Towards the second part: you recognized your mistakes and made an effort to get better. THAT is admirable. It takes more stones to admit you fucked up and made an effort to improve than just passing blame or cursing up a storm/rage-quitting. The feeling of overcoming something that seemed absolutely impossible to do, to get that one drop you need.. it's wonderful. I too hope that "the challenge" is in MoP and rewards proportionately. Time will tell.

[schippie]

Thank god for this..

If i ever see somebody whine again that dungeons are to easy.. im literally going to rub the 4.1 horrors against there face. The fact that doing these with a pug, caused me to lose most my hairs those weeks says enough NEVER AGAIN!

Now less ranty,

Im happy with this change, its needed and i really dont want to ever see the `harder` heroics back. Lets face it people, if you want a challenge you raid. You no longer do the dungeons for that. Its that simple, dungeons need to be things you can do in 15-25 minutes .. and not 45 minutes. And if you are then looking for competition, do challenge modes or timed heroics.

[Duridi]

Either you agree that CC is an outdated mechanic and my point was perfectly valid, or you think that it has a place in raids for the future in which case you can argue with me, or you can stay neutral and shut the hell up. But enough with this holier-than-thou crap.

The world isn't all black and white.

If you think that I only have two options, so be it. I haven't even mentioned my opinion on the matter, as it doesn't exist. I just pointed out that you were unclear in what you wrote, and should expect people to respond to that. I already told you that though.

---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 08:21 AM ----------

You're crazy. You want to be challenged everywhere? Fine, let's make all PvE content as hard as heroic raiding. Oh wait, then 95% of the player base would mutiny because they're sick of not getting everywhere. Well then, let's make everything as easy as daily quests. Well damn, now 95% of the player base is bored out of their minds.

Variety. Ever heard that word before?

It exists in raiding, at a reasonable amount.

[Adlen]

Im happy with this change, its needed and i really dont want to ever see the `harder` heroics back. Lets face it people, if you want a challenge you raid. You no longer do the dungeons for that. Its that simple, dungeons need to be things you can do in 15-25 minutes .. and not 45 minutes. And if you are then looking for competition, do challenge modes or timed heroics.

AHAHAHAHAHAh

5 man Dungeons are not the only thing that has become easier and easier since after Firelands.

[Konker]

I think they're hopping back & forth without finding the sweet spot in the middle. My guild is very casual. Very, very casual - but we largely enjoyed Cata heroics even in the beginning. The issues that arose were not from the difficulty of the dungeon itself, but certain unforgiving boss fight mechanics. We'd do fine in Stonecore unless our ranged DPS missed one wave of crystals. We'd do fine in Vortex Pinnacle until fighting Asaad and someone missed a jump. In Blackrock Caverns Corla would sometimes hang us up if one person in the group had trouble monitoring the debuff count. These mechanics aren't bad, but it's a huge learning curve where normals were too easy and the next "baby-step" is heroics where any one person could wipe the group over and over (you rememebr those LFGs).

I would suggest having the 85-89 dungeons to level with - create level 90 versions of all of those dungeons for something to do at level 90(call it LFG difficulty) - and then create Heroic versions of those dungeons as the step before raids. My experience with failures like LFG Heroics was the simple fact there was nothing else for a level 85 to do but queue for Heroics since regulars were irrelevant by that time and Heroics were tuned too closely to raids for a casual player to contribute. All we really needed was a step in between. Heroics should have been tuned more like the Twilights are, and the Twilights tuned more like the Heroics were. It's still scary to queue for Heroics, but queuing for Twilights is cake.

Some kind of prerequisite for queuing in heroics could have also helped - perhaps something along the lines of having to have completed an achievement for having succesfully avoided each bosses "deadly" mechanics before being able to LFG heroics. Along with the dungeon journal I think it would be fun for many to help friends/guildies complete these "achivements" and progress. This also shouldn't slow down more devoted players since completing them would be consequential to playing well.

Challenge modes seems gimmicky, but maybe it will serve this purpose.

[Sammyspudd]

I am in two minds about heroic dungeons. Having played in Vanilla and BC, and doing heroics/dungeons for 2/3 hours at a time, and then going to the wrath model, I must say I didn't actually care that they were easier, because at the places looked aesthetically pleasing. But I always played with my friends/guildies anyway, so maybe that added to it my enjoyment of the dungeons. Actually that was the same with Cata, I don't think I even pugged 1 heroic, because I knew it would fail miserably.

Anyway, people complaining, this is how the game is now, this is how the playerbase are now. More importantly, this is how Blizzard is now (Aw you pay 10 quid a month, here have some purpz)

[Lolercaust]

Cataclysm catered to no one? Well that's a pretty bold statement. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I seem to remember some statistic fromboth MMO and blue posts that these raid tiers have been seen by more of the player base than previous tiers. Just because it didn't cater to you, doesn't mean it catered to no one.

And yes, of course you are supposed to seek out the parts of the game that are actually challenging. Whether your content with that or not is your own personal problem. But complaining about how the parts of the game you want to play don't fit your definition of challenge is the defintion of being self-centered. Technically, Blizzard has zero accountability to the player base. They can do whatever the hell they want. They certainly have zero accountability to you.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Blizzard to create a game that perfectly fits what you want because it's never going to happen. If you don't enjoy the game for what it is, stop paying and move on. I fail to see how complaining about how it doesn't fit your narrow standards is a productive use of time.

Cataclysm catered to casuals in the end, but the concept of Cataclysm was about a return to certain hardcore principles. Below the surface, Cataclysm also attempted to maintain the casual userbase by changing the difficulty of dungeons and raids but keeping the rest of the game easy. As a result, the expansion launched with incompatible gameplay elements which lost the interest of subscribers all across the board, hardcores and casuals alike. I would call that catering to no one.

I am not attempting to have the game catered to me specifically. I'm suggesting that WoW has backpedaled in certain respects (such as in the handling of all non-instanced content) and that returning to old principles in some areas of the game (e.g. leveling, heroic dungeons, how gear should be obtained, crafting, factions/reputations, dailies, WPvP, etc.) would make WoW a better game. One look at the design of MoP's endgame tells me that Blizzard and I generally see eye-to-eye. So before you write me off as being self-centered, perhaps you should hear what I actually have to say.

Oh, and you should understand perfectly well what I'm doing here, as you're doing the same thing yourself

[Tinsoul]

Main complaint I'm seeing is that challenge modes are not rewarding raid gear. This seems consistent with the move to provide alternate end game activities to raiding. And I'm personally relieved.

When Cat hit, after I'd scrounged up what gear I could, I did ... archeology. Hours of archeology. Not because I wanted to, but because there was a ring, trinket and staff in there that were the best available to me as a raider. Never did get the trinket - and ended up absolutely loathing archeology. I found this a disappointment - I think I would have liked archeology if I had allowed myself to do it in small periods when the desire struck me.

I look forward to challenge modes. It will be something I do with guildmates on quiet nights. I don't do mogging, but I imagine I'll take satisfaction from getting the various medals, reflecting on my performance, and returning to do better.

Had they rewarded raid gear, it would be another thing to grind, the grind likely taking all joy from the process - so that when the piece of gear were eventually won, like archeology, I'd wipe my hands with relief and never return.

[Trionix11]

Main complaint I'm seeing is that challenge modes are not rewarding raid gear. This seems consistent with the move to provide alternate end game activities to raiding. And I'm personally relieved.

When Cat hit, after I'd scrounged up what gear I could, I did ... archeology. Hours of archeology. Not because I wanted to, but because there was a ring, trinket and staff in there that were the best available to me as a raider. Never did get the trinket - and ended up absolutely loathing archeology. I found this a disappointment - I think I would have liked archeology if I had allowed myself to do it in small periods when the desire struck me.

I look forward to challenge modes. It will be something I do with guildmates on quiet nights. I don't do mogging, but I imagine I'll take satisfaction from getting the various medals, reflecting on my performance, and returning to do better.

Had they rewarded raid gear, it would be another thing to grind, the grind likely taking all joy from the process - so that when the piece of gear were eventually won, like archeology, I'd wipe my hands with relief and never return.

This.

I have high expectation from Challenege mode. I don't wanna run through a group with people who keep quiting or don't have time for it.

[mvallas]

Had they rewarded raid gear, it would be another thing to grind, the grind likely taking all joy from the process - so that when the piece of gear were eventually won, like archeology, I'd wipe my hands with relief and never return.

And that's the crux right there too... Heroics post-gearing up will be there just for joy and fun. If you had a harder-heroic, casuals would gravitate and do that for the gear drops, and would be spitting and swearing about it... and it would just be repeating the Cata-launch dungeon debacle all over again...

[Adlen]

And that's the crux right there too... Heroics post-gearing up will be there just for joy and fun. If you had a harder-heroic, casuals would gravitate and do that for the gear drops, and would be spitting and swearing about it... and it would just be repeating the Cata-launch dungeon debacle all over again...

so then the question, how do you tell the casual noobies
That some rewards in the game you actually have to be good enough to get (OMGZ GASP!)

Its same old story, casuals want something, realize they suck too much ass to get it, but somehow still think they deserve it

[Aquamonkey]

so then the question, how do you tell the casual noobies
That some rewards in the game you actually have to be good enough to get (OMGZ GASP!)

Its same old story, casuals want something, realize they suck too much ass to get it, but somehow still think they deserve it

If I buy a game and it's too hard for me to beat but I want to see all the content (story), I find a cheat code, hack, dl a save, or watch a playthrough on youtube. (actually for most games I don't even buy them, I skip straight to watching a playthrough on youtube).

They pay and they want to see everything in the game or they feel like they aren't getting their money's worth. Stuff gets nerfed after a certain amount of time, it's no big deal.

[david0925]

challenge modes aren't just timed. mobs and bosses are also stronger.

according to your analogy, you just got "heroic raids with a timer".

besides that, why would you want stronger gear from challenge modes? the cosmetic rewards they give are more than enough for e-peen flexing and if you're good enough to get them all, you shouldn't need to be stronger than people who can't. your skill should be enough to give you the edge.

IMHO goods and bads should be separed by skill alone, not by math.

You say this, but then it's going to be an AoE/CC race depending on how the dungeon is made.

I'm just saying realistically you're probably going to have similar classes on the leaderboard, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Adlen]

If I buy a game and it's too hard for me to beat but I want to see all the content (story), I find a cheat code, hack, dl a save, or watch a playthrough on youtube. (actually for most games I don't even buy them, I skip straight to watching a playthrough on youtube).

They pay and they want to see everything in the game or they feel like they aren't getting their money's worth. Stuff gets nerfed after a certain amount of time, it's no big deal.

You dont buy a game to beat it
You buy a game to TRY and beat it
Theres a differance

You do realize that LFR is the SAME EXACT THING as the other modes?
There is nothing that you see in Heroic/normal mode that you dont see in LFR

[Aquamonkey]

You dont buy a game to beat it
You buy a game to TRY and beat it
Theres a differance

You do realize that LFR is the SAME EXACT THING as the other modes?
There is nothing that you see in Heroic/normal mode that you dont see in LFR

More tentacles. Better gear. Achievement points. Mounts.

[mistuhbull]

so then the question, how do you tell the casual noobies
That some rewards in the game you actually have to be good enough to get (OMGZ GASP!)

Its same old story, casuals want something, realize they suck too much ass to get it, but somehow still think they deserve it

But it's non-stated gear, it's not part of progression. Just like how in console RPGs there are bonus bosses out there, that aren't part of the story so they can be (and are) tuned to be VERY difficult, and yet people don't bitch because it is outside the core of the game.

Challenge modes are those bonus bosses, they give something nice but 100% optional to the people who want to do something harder at small scale

[mvallas]

You dont buy a game to beat it
You buy a game to TRY and beat it
Theres a differance

You do realize that LFR is the SAME EXACT THING as the other modes?
There is nothing that you see in Heroic/normal mode that you dont see in LFR

That's like saying "you don't buy a ticket to see a movie... you buy a ticket to TRY to sit through it."

Why do people treat Video Games (a source of entertainment) as some metaphor for living ones life?

---------- Post added 2012-06-22 at 03:47 PM ----------

so then the question, how do you tell the casual noobies
That some rewards in the game you actually have to be good enough to get (OMGZ GASP!)

Its same old story, casuals want something, realize they suck too much ass to get it, but somehow still think they deserve it

First off... by not being classist and calling people "casual noobies"... they're human beings with wants and desires, just like you. :P

Once you achieve the first one, you will then realize the second part - Because you apparently don't know what casuals want... it's not about loot for most casuals... Most casuals just want to experience the content (story, monsters, ect...)

There's a quote I read in a thread a while ago about a dialoge exchange he had while in LFR... and it summed up the casual mentality perfectly.

Person 1: "How's the heroic version of DS?"
Person 2: "Heroic Raids are something nerds do to see the exact same content we LFR players do"

Want to know how you tell casuals some rewards require skill? Easy... 1) Give them enough content that's fun to play to make them content so they don't FEEL as if they HAVE to go for the big difficult shiny. and 2) Make sure the hard content rewards are NOT the be-all-end-all goal of the game.

Blizz's job is to not to train players how to become hardened stat-crunching raiders. Blizz's job is to provide FUN for ALL PLAYSTYLES. Weither you're a casual wanting to smash dungeons, or some stat-crunching monkey who bases his self-worth on weither he's unlocked XXX Achievement or obtained the YYY piece of gear.