Question to Beta testers

[Tenkachii]

Hey, so far I've heard a bit about the state of rogues in beta about PvE, that Assassination is best at damage spec and sub worst. But I haven't heard about pvp, Anyone tested PvP already and can tell me how the state of rogues is there. I mean if assassination is best at dps it could be also best in pvp ?

[wow]

As far as pvp goes rogues are the worst class in beta at it. As for pve dmg all the specs are about the same with combat being the lowest.

[Pikapika]

Don't look at damage on beta, look at playability and class design. Which rogues are pretty shit at right now on beta.

[Huntaer]

i think its best to wait till lvl 90 becomes available before we say anything about PVP ^_^

[Ambrodel]

before we say anything about PVP ^_^

Or PVE for that matter. Performance while leveling doesn't give an accurate picture of performance at max level, for any class or spec. And certainly not while numbers are still being tweaked.

[wow]

Or PVE for that matter. Performance while leveling doesn't give an accurate picture of performance at max level, for any class or spec. And certainly not while numbers are still being tweaked.

No ones talking about numbers rogue mechanics in pve and pvp more so are terrible in beta. Lvl 90 will not change this, 90 will only be the same thing with bigger numbers on everything.

[Tenkachii]

Don't look at damage on beta, look at playability and class design. Which rogues are pretty shit at right now on beta.

Not telling anyone to look at damage I'm just saying if Assa is best at damage you can kinda think its best in pvp also since all the pvp spells are in the talent trees.

[Carp The Fish]

Not telling anyone to look at damage I'm just saying if Assa is best at damage you can kinda think its best in pvp also since all the pvp spells are in the talent trees.

Not necessarily true; on live, Combat is generally best damage in PvE right now but is a bag of week-old garbage in PvP when Killing Spree isn't available.

[Coldkil]

Too soon for talking about endgame.

- The leveling flow looks really cool; i leveled 3 rogues from 1 to 85 (one for each spec) and all of them look really fun
- The new talent system is a bit strange for us; probably because our old talent trees were already pretty good and what we needed were more abilities to use and not more talents
- Class mechanics/design is stale atm; i don't feel like i'm having big changes but at least i feel comfortable with my class

[Pikapika]

Too soon for talking about endgame.

- The leveling flow looks really cool; i leveled 3 rogues from 1 to 85 (one for each spec) and all of them look really fun
- The new talent system is a bit strange for us; probably because our old talent trees were already pretty good and what we needed were more abilities to use and not more talents
- Class mechanics/design is stale atm; i don't feel like i'm having big changes but at least i feel comfortable with my class

How anyone can feel comfortable with Sanguinary Vein right now is beyond me.

[Rogaeu]

I'd say SV was implied because sub's burst was really ridiculous. With legendary daggers I can burst down plate-classes without any problems. Pls be fair, that's fact...
Second thing is: who says you have to play sub in MoP-pvp? We played sub because it hat best mobility + prep + high burst. Now Shadowstep e.g. is available to all specs. Our burst got nerfed just like they nerfed e.g. warriors' one-shot-makro. That's pretty fair in my opinion.
Last but not least pls stop whining about pvp because not only rogues were reworked, other classes were aswell... simply have a look at other class forums. everyone is complaining. Of course if blizzard would imply the MoP-Rogue into cataclysm PvP, rogues would be very weak. But in MoP all classes get changed. We have to wait and see how things will work out...
To PvE: rogues have always been in great shape. the playstyle won't change a lot. For me that's nice, because i like be rogue as it is. others may want lots of changes but i dont understand why they're playing a rogue when in fact they dont enjoy the playstyle...

[Pikapika]

To PvE: rogues have always been in great shape. the playstyle won't change a lot. For me that's nice, because i like be rogue as it is. others may want lots of changes but i dont understand why they're playing a rogue when in fact they dont enjoy the playstyle...

Pve sub is going to change a good bit, having to use redirect every single target swap if you don't want your damage to be gimped is a pretty big (and cumbersome) change that I'm not looking forward to. Pve combat is even more boring than it is now with RvS just being something you hit every 20 seconds rather than every finisher, not to mention killing spree being even longer. Assassination is the only spec that's really improving as a whole for pve in mists, and even then, ruthlessness missing makes the spec extremely predictable.

[Rogaeu]

if rogue's that boring, then maybe you should reroll

[wow]

I'd say SV was implied because sub's burst was really ridiculous. With legendary daggers I can burst down plate-classes without any problems. Pls be fair, that's fact...

The problem is they've up burst on everyone else on beta while gutting sub's so good job there blizzard really good job.

Second thing is: who says you have to play sub in MoP-pvp? We played sub because it hat best mobility + prep + high burst. Now Shadowstep e.g. is available to all specs. Our burst got nerfed just like they nerfed e.g. warriors' one-shot-makro. That's pretty fair in my opinion.
Last but not least pls stop whining about pvp because not only rogues were reworked, other classes were aswell...

Yes every melee was reworked to have better mobility than what shadow step or burst of speed gives while getting range snares and attacks by all but rogues.

To PvE: rogues have always been in great shape. the playstyle won't change a lot. For me that's nice, because i like be rogue as it is. others may want lots of changes but i dont understand why they're playing a rogue when in fact they dont enjoy the playstyle...

Sub changed a lot in pve mostly for the worse, Assassination got made even slower than live, and combat is mostly the same rvs was made even easier to use. So combat is the only one that has stayed basically the same in pve.

[Rogaeu]

i guess we have to accept that blizzard hates rogues

[Verain]

I'd say SV was implied because sub's burst was really ridiculous. With legendary daggers I can burst down plate-classes without any problems. Pls be fair, that's fact...

Wait, you think we should be balanced around having legendaries in the mop-specific build of the game?

Second thing is: who says you have to play sub in MoP-pvp? We played sub because it hat best mobility + prep + high burst. Now Shadowstep e.g. is available to all specs.

We want it to be an option. SV is going to make it very rough in pvp.

My gripe is, I think, with HAT at this point.

HAT used to say:
v1- When someone gets a crit in your party, you get a combo point!

That was too good, so then they went with a few versions of:
v2- When anyone in your raid gets a crit, you get a combo point! This now has an ICD of two seconds!
(I'm skipping the parts with the individual ICDs- those mostly felt like v1 anyway)

Ok, still on board with that. Now you get way less in pvp, but the "correct" amount in pve.
Now we have, on beta:
v3- When anyone in your raid gets a crit, if you are both unstealthed and in combat, then you get a combo point! Assuming you haven't benefited from this in the last two seconds.

My gripe is that now the ability should actually be:

"When in combat and unstealthed, you gain a combo point every two seconds."

Clearly, they are assuming we have thos CPs, and in pvp it is pretty iffy.


Still- you are correct in that the other specs should at least be viable. Mutilate in particular as it has answers to armor. Combat will still be the only damage spec in the game with no way around armor.... except for shadow blades, so that is something.

We have to wait and see how things will work out...

We are getting close enough to make some generalizations.

[Coldkil]

How anyone can feel comfortable with Sanguinary Vein right now is beyond me.

Because it's something i need to pay attention to and makes more sense as an active talent. For leveling, just opening with garrote is enough - and i found that the free opener is way better than the "3x ambush" talent.

Atm, we are rolling rupture not because it's strong, but because it's a free dot. When it actually comes to raw damage (spine hm tendons) we skip it completely since a bleed is already provided by other means.

Again, there's not much endgame to test so in a raid enviroment and/or high end PvP everything can change (especially for sub, i can understand your pain Pikapika)

[Pikapika]

Because it's something i need to pay attention to and makes more sense as an active talent. For leveling, just opening with garrote is enough - and i found that the free opener is way better than the "3x ambush" talent.

Problem is it's NOT an active ability, it's like HfB but way worse.

[Rogaeu]

Wait, you think we should be balanced around having legendaries in the mop-specific build of the game?



We want it to be an option. SV is going to make it very rough in pvp.

i didnt say that we have to be balanced around legendarys. i just said that we do an ridiculous amount of damage even to plate classes. with the legendarys its possible to burst them down without any efforts. without we still have enormous burst to offer. rogue - with or without legendarys - simply is way too strong atm. and i'm saying this although i'm a rogue aswell.

i dont say im happy about this change with SV but i just want to test it in raid environment (different boss mechanics, with versatility, ...). if it turns out to be such a big problem, then ok, but till then i simply dont see any sense in predicting the end of the world...

i also would prefer to play all three speccs in PVE and PVP but which class can do so? warrior prefers Arms over Fury, Mages prefer fire over frost, guilds prefer a blood dk over a prot warrior... its not that easy to balance the game.
for me it is important that we have a viable specc for every boss fight. in DS you prefer sub for morchok, combat for zon'ozz and mutilate for madness. not every specc has to be viable for every fight and also balanced in PvP.
that at least is my opinion...

[Coldkil]

Problem is it's NOT an active ability, it's like HfB but way worse.

Never had a problem with HfB - it WAS a bad design, sure, but never been a problem.

Same goes for new SV. I can agree with you that it isn't a good design to force us roll rupture manually to get our buff up, but tbh i prefer this instead of keeping up a hot on myself.

New SV breaks a lot of things for Sub PvP - forcing people to keep garrote/rupture up. In PvE it's nothing different to what it is now actually (ER being passive with SnD, rolling rupture and eviscerate in between) and even easier.