Does this defy what an arpg game is?

[Morsker]

Also as an addendum, this is another case of Blizzard telling people with 100% certainty what is and is not fun. An action they seem very prone to of late.

Blizzard is just observing what people find fun. Wizard players are able to dodge almost all attacks through Hydra + Blizzard kiting, and they say over and over again that this isn't fun, and that they want it changed.

The players who want 100% dodge are biased, and partially lying. They prefer competitive tactics to be unfun because it limits competition, and they want the 100% dodge so they can farm chests and flood the AH without really playing the game.

[Aurinax]

Blizzard is just observing what people find fun. Wizard players are able to dodge almost all attacks through Hydra + Blizzard kiting, and they say over and over again that this isn't fun, and that they want it changed.

The players who want 100% dodge are biased, and partially lying. They prefer competitive tactics to be unfun because it limits competition, and they want the 100% dodge so they can farm chests and flood the AH without really playing the game.

If surviving and progressing is based largely on ability to dodge hostile mechanics (and I'm not just talking about auto-attacks; avoidable AOE from affixes too. Increase enemy health pools if it needs to be so gear based) and not how much you've spent on gear, then those who progress to the end and are able to farm the best gear deserve to be at the top and selling the best gear.

Personally I think the best fix to Inferno would be to drop mob auto attack damage by about 30%, and increase the damage done by all of their avoidable mechanics (Arcane and other affixes, and ALL projectiles, elites or not) by about 30%. This way an undergeared Barbarian who is a good player will far outperform an overgeared DH who is bad and got geared and to the end simply because of the class.

Also, you're going to explain to me how dodging mechanics is not playing the game, even in its current state.

[Caiada]

If surviving and progressing is based largely on ability to dodge hostile mechanics (and I'm not just talking about auto-attacks; avoidable AOE from affixes too. Increase enemy health pools if it needs to be so gear based) and not how much you've spent on gear, then those who progress to the end and are able to farm the best gear deserve to be at the top and selling the best gear.

Personally I think the best fix to Inferno would be to drop mob auto attack damage by about 30%, and increase the damage done by all of their avoidable mechanics (Arcane and other affixes, and ALL projectiles, elites or not) by about 30%. This way an undergeared Barbarian who is a good player will far outperform an overgeared DH who is bad and got geared and to the end simply because of the class.

Also, you're going to explain to me how dodging mechanics is not playing the game, even in its current state.

Decreasing unavoidable damage makes ranged stronger.

[Joey Ray III]

Blizzard is just observing what people find fun. Wizard players are able to dodge almost all attacks through Hydra + Blizzard kiting, and they say over and over again that this isn't fun, and that they want it changed.

so THATS why they changed it. i thought it was because it was overpowered.

thank you blizzard for looking out for me.

[Frozen Death Knight]

You are making the misconception that the game needs to be designed around it. It is not, so it is not bad design. Period.

[Grraarrgghh]

HEY GUYS!

I don't think we have enough threads for people to bitch about random shit in...

...oh

Oh good you guys keep making more. Carry on.

Please stay on topic & post constructively

[SurrealNight]

Playing a DH this stuff is even more apparent. They nerfed Smoke Screen because DH were able to basically stand in place and just kill until their Disc ran out.

The problem is it is impossible to avoid 100% of attacks in D3 just due to the nature of mobs and being forced to deal with latency. I know lots of deaths where I'm 100% sure I hit SS before being hit by whatever killed me and as soon as I see that first instance of rubberbanding I usually just log off to avoid pointless repair bill.

Factor in the tons of gear/gold/$ it takes to gear where you can even take ONE hit as most classes and you are left with an end game that is really just a laughable string of deaths. Just have to see what 1.0.3 brings us I guess.

[melodramocracy]

http://d3db.com/blue/thread/4427663050/us

"It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play."

So why is lingering fog in the game?

[Darsithis]

So why is lingering fog in the game?

It's meant to be used at the right moments. That's why it has a cost and you can't just spam it forever. It allows you to get out of some situations without being able to get out of all of them. It makes skill and forethought useful, and lets you say to yourself "Should I smokescreen here and get away for a moment, or can I take this hit, or do I have something else useful?". If you could just get out of every ability mobs could throw at you, why play?

I realize the point of the OP: in an ARPG, you should be able to keep moving and never be hit, since you have real-time control of your movement and character. From a gaming point of view, though, I disagree.

[melodramocracy]

It's meant to be used at the right moments. That's why it has a cost and you can't just spam it forever. It allows you to get out of some situations without being able to get out of all of them. It makes skill and forethought useful, and lets you say to yourself "Should I smokescreen here and get away for a moment, or can I take this hit, or do I have something else useful?". If you could just get out of every ability mobs could throw at you, why play?

I realize the point of the OP: in an ARPG, you should be able to keep moving and never be hit, since you have real-time control of your movement and character. From a gaming point of view, though, I disagree.

It can be used to bypass a LOT of mobs if that's your desire, however, but I digress.

What the game boils down to is using a) attacks, b) gear, and c) player positioning to overcome your enemies. What I think the issue here is that the poster in the first linked thread is stating that short range melee swingers (zombies in Act I, for example), will still hit you if you're within a certain range of them, even if the animation itself makes it look impossible.

While that tidbit is valuable to know for some classes, the Blizzard response seems poorly worded, because player positioning is a pretty significant part of this game. Should I not avoid wasp projectiles? Should I just eat all the Belial p3 explosions? Should I not use doorways and other obstacles to funnel mobs as I see fit? Throwing all that out the window and basically hoping my gear stats get me through would certainly lessen involvement in the game.

Or maybe I'm just reading into it.

[Chaoslux]

Please stop posting

Blizzard deletes these posts on their forums btw. The new 6 page thread with more proof just got deleted, the gay thread lasted longer than that one, lol

Stop posting to tell other posters to stop posting

They only delete posts which arent constructive and arent useful to anyone. It's very much possible to say you dont like the game or certain aspects of the game WITHOUT involving Blizzard in conspiracy theories or insulting their employees (including the devs working on the game)

[SurrealNight]

So why is lingering fog in the game?

SS only last 1.5 seconds with lingering fog and their is a CD between uses so you can't exactly just stand there and spam it without being killed. I do run with Tactical Advantage which allows you to run the same distance Vault takes you and be immune in the process.

The problem is it's impossible to avoid 100% of damage 100% of the time. I am a pretty good twitch player and some things happen to fast to reliably react to. So what happens is people try to find ways to just muscle through the damage (which basically means getting a lot of gear) so they don't have to worry about it. That is why the new hotness for DH is Shadow Power+Gloom. Lasts 3 seconds and can be chained so once you have enough gear you can just stand there and fire away until your totally out of Disc.

So basically it is a big failure because everyone is moving towards gear/builds that allow them to just soak through the damage instead of avoid it.

will still hit you if you're within a certain range of them, even if the animation itself makes it look impossible.

I have to wonder if he is playing a DH and doesn't realize the flaw with Vault. Since you can still be killed by anything hitting your original location until you actually finish vaulting (just like Disengage for WoW hunters).

[Aquamonkey]

How far along are you? You cannot avoid damage in latter parts of the game. Soul leapers, there is no way to avoid them without using a cd on a caster class. You have to use a cd as soon as they pop up on your screen or your 1 shot for 100k

You can dodge leapers. Just keep strafing till they miss, then shoot them until the cd on their facehug is done. As WD, you can use pets for a distraction too to get extra shots in.

[Strah]

So basically it is a big failure because everyone is moving towards gear/builds that allow them to just soak through the damage instead of avoid it.

I don't see how that is a failure. I believe that is the way this game is meant to be played ( as stated by blizzard ).

[Aquamonkey]

I don't see how that is a failure. I believe that is the way this game is meant to be played ( as stated by blizzard ).

Yup, working as intended. How else would the RMAH make them any money?

[Newbryn]

That blue post is total and utter bullshit it just proves blizzard doesn't know how to make a game that doesn't involve rng mechanics fucking ridiculous.With that statement alone they're dissing on games like dark/ demon souls, and guess what those games are also gear dependent.

[Orange Joe]

That blue post is total and utter bullshit it just proves blizzard doesn't know how to make a game that doesn't involve rng mechanics fucking ridiculous.With that statement alone they're dissing on games like dark/ demon souls, and guess what those games are also gear dependent.

How does a post about how they designed their game say anything about other games?

They designed their game the way they want. If you don't like it.....

DON'T BUY IT!

[Newbryn]

How does a post about how they designed their game say anything about other games?

They designed their game the way they want. If you don't like it.....

DON'T BUY IT!

that's great they design it how they wanted to, but when they make blanket statements about what fun gameplay is then the post comes off as idiotic simple as that.

[Orange Joe]

It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.

Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. It's not something we'll be changing.

They are talking about their game. Not making a blanket statement about any and every game.

[Rakoth]

that's great they design it how they wanted to, but when they make blanket statements about what fun gameplay is then the post comes off as idiotic simple as that.

They don't make blanket statements, they assume that we won't nitpick every semantic detail of their posts. It is quite clear in this case that In blizzard's opinion these things aren't fun. They believe people don't find it fun. Period. He isn't telling you what's fun or not, he is giving Blizzard's opinion.

As a poster above said. If the game is not fun for you, don't make statements about anyone else (like me), just don't buy it.

Blizzard's definition of fun is very similar to mine, so I find blizzard games fun. I don't find CoD fun, nor do I find a racing game fun, others might, but they are not me. I have fun with Blizzard games, and Blizzard mechanics, I will play Blizzard games. I also have fun with certain EA games and Valve games, they also share my definition of fun.

If the poster needs to put an addendum stating that "it is blizzard's opinion that". If you don't think Blizzard shares your view of fun, start your own game company, or buy games that match your own definition of fun.