Totems in MoP: Discussion of their current state vs the past

[Lassira]

And adding much-needed defensive cooldowns.

Lost stoneclaw absorb, not much of a gain here.

And adding several throughput CD options for Enhancement.

One? Unless I'm missing something. And really, they're just making up for spirit wolves being absolute garbage. Enhancement is the only DPS spec in the game without a real self DPS cooldown, spiritwolves are worth what, 200~ DPS on CD?

And decoupling Enhancement's sprint from a second CD.

...and putting it on GCD when it wasn't before, not a gain.
We also lost our only controlled stun here. Please don't mention the joke that is an 8 yard range 5s chargeup 5 hp totem. Enhancement absolutely can't afford either of the glyphs to make it better, we already have far too many mandatory.

And removing shield charges on Water and Lightning Shields.

My lightning shield hasn't lost charges for patches.


Playing shadowpriest, warrior, and enhance on beta is hilarious. Enhancement is so far behind(from a gladiator-level PoV) in absolutely everything that it's not even fair. I know exactly what I'm going to play in MoP. I've been playing Enhance for something like 6 years and I feel like it's time to completely abandon the spec.

In PvE enhancement has been near last DPS in nearly every tier since TBC, it's still beta so it's hard to say but my enhancement does nearly half the DPS of my warrior on beta.

[Endus]

Lost stoneclaw absorb, not much of a gain here.

You can't possibly be serious. Stoneclaw absorb hasn't been a great defensive CD since that brief period in WotLK. It's been standard only because it's ALL we had.

A 16k shield is not a big gain, all the new options are hands-down better, and you can have more than one.

One? Unless I'm missing something. And really, they're just making up for spirit wolves being absolute garbage. Enhancement is the only DPS spec in the game without a real self DPS cooldown, spiritwolves are worth what, 200~ DPS on CD?

Apparently, you're forgetting Ascendance and Elemental Mastery. I wasn't counting wolves, until we see where their scaling is intended to be for MoP.

In PvE enhancement has been near last DPS in nearly every tier since TBC, it's still beta so it's hard to say but my enhancement does nearly half the DPS of my warrior on beta.

And that's just absolutely not true.

[shell]

This quote proves that totems have INDEED been balanced using such a rule, and self contained without needing to factor Shaman performance in general (even though I know that's how most balancing is done)

And it is for this reason why the quote works against your argument and not for you. You're not skipping the tier3 talents are you? There's your balance right there. The only thing I agree with you about is the 5% health baseline, that's it. Otherwise the system is balanced.

I am not claiming this is a rule they MUST follow, just a guideline they seem to have used in the past and should still apply now with such a huge change in totem dynamics.

The "huge change" was getting rid of our buff totems. Other than that the only comparable totems between MoP and Cata are SBT, Earthbind/Earthgrab, and Healing Stream. That's 3 totems, that's not a "huge change" (it's actually 4 but earthbind/earthgrab are exclusive). The huge change was the buffs being removed and I don't think anyone cares about losing a spammable wrath of air totem. And if you care about losing those 3 pick totemic restoration. You can "game" the totems so that way you get them on shorter cooldowns without them being destroyed with totemic recall. If you don't want them to be destroyed pick totemic projection. SBT has the same range as the pets, you can throw ebind/egrab, and HST has a 40 yard range. You can use Projection to LoS all your totems or CotE/Restoration to reset them, so the only nitpick I have is the 5% health baseline.

I've already explained about the dk's aoe stun, you'll just have to wait till the beta goes live to see it for yourself, that way it isn't just my word against yours. I'ts just a case of the grass is greener but I get that you want to wait to see it for yourself.

[SpaceJam]

You can't just quote me and then ignore what I said. Your arguments have boiled down to misrepresenting both my own position and the past or current state of Shaman, or taking comments like that one you just quoted and completely ignoring it or missing the point.

Case in point; you've given plenty of disadvantages that totems inherently have, but the entire point of what you just quoted is that disadvantages are necessary and integral to game design. You continuously equate "disadvantage" with "flaw" or "mistake", and the two are NOT the same.



And FET. And EET. Neither of which had massive health on the totem. Meaning your entire argument here is based on a premise that simply is not true.




You've established that it's a disadvantage. You have then made the unwarranted leap, per usual, to it being a flaw that needs fixing.

Disadvantages are fine, and part of class and game design. You're missing at least one proven premise to draw the conclusion you're trying to draw from the data you're providing. You need to establish that Shaman performance in PvP is suffering and cannot be overcome by playing better/differently, and that this particular issue is the cause of that poor performance. Until you do, you're still saying "disadvantage = flaw = needs fixing", and that's just wrong.



And this is where you misconstrue my position, since you stated this in another thread very recently, and I cited you no less than 4 times in the last few months where I stated the exact same thing, in threads you had been active in and which you posted in after the comments I cited, meaning you read those comments I made (since I assume you're actually reading the threads you participate in; if not that's a whole different issue).

Outright lying about my stance is not acceptable, especially since it was already pointed out to you in detail.

Link to the offending post.

Starting a new thread to try and ignore that correction will not fly.

Just accept that the fact the he will never agree with anything you say. Even though you make many valid points he continues to misdirect and dismiss what you say as "your own personal opinion." Or you are quoting him out of context.

I always felt that you've never acknowledged or voiced your opinion about some of the more controversial problems. You pick a very simple idea like "totems should 5% of our HP" or something else conservative and give that a thumbs up versus a tanking shaman. Granted the majority considers tanking shaman as a cardinal sin, I do too, but you get my point; I never see you taking the less popular side of an argument.

I think a better way to voice the OP is: If totems are going to be a keystone in the Shaman class then they shouldn't be easily killed. I have no problem with them being killed, but not from 1-2 GCDs. They should require some sort of cooldown to get rid of efficiently i.e Icy Veins, or have you commit a length of time to killing it. Bubbles are a core ability of Priests and they require a length of time to burn through or a dispel (which will be on CDs in Mists.) Barkskin, Deterrence, Shield Wall, and Divine Shield, to name a few are, all major CDs that require lengths of time to burn through or a major CD to get rid of, some you can't get rid of and some aren't even worth burning through. Not to mention the class restrictions that are involved with removing them.

SINCE!!!! Totems are going to be COOLDOWN based abilities they need to have passive protection and a disadvantage when you kill them e.g (When you kill a Fire Totem you burn for 5% of your total health over 6 seconds.) The passive protection I think should be 10% baseline along with Stoneclaw Totem. Now think about live stats for a moment... on average we have 150K in full Cata gear so that's 15k health+4143 from Stoneclaw and we have >20k health on totems. Even if they were given 100% of the casters Resilience we'd still be looking at 2-3 GCDs to kill them. My Rogue's Hemos crit for 18k-22k on resilience targets, and I'm pretty sure Ice Lance hits for more than 20k as well., bite on that for a moment.

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 06:09 PM ----------

Playing shadowpriest, warrior, and enhance on beta is hilarious. Enhancement is so far behind(from a gladiator-level PoV) in absolutely everything that it's not even fair. I know exactly what I'm going to play in MoP. I've been playing Enhance for something like 6 years and I feel like it's time to completely abandon the spec.

In PvE enhancement has been near last DPS in nearly every tier since TBC, it's still beta so it's hard to say but my enhancement does nearly half the DPS of my warrior on beta.

And that's just absolutely not true.

Actually it is. You see he said NEARLY every tier, which means Shaman had their moments. They certainly did, but they were few and far between.

[Protoman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, that quote from GC was taken out of context because he was talking about Cata totems. If he was responding to our concerns about totems in MoP instead of Cata, he might have said something like: “we’re fine with totem health given how easy totems are to place (projection) or replace (restoration/CotE) in MoP”

And it is for this reason why the quote works against your argument and not for you. You're not skipping the tier3 talents are you? There's your balance right there. The only thing I agree with you about is the 5% health baseline, that's it. Otherwise the system is balanced.

You realize by agreeing with me that all totems should get 5%HP baseline you are actually saying that totems are NOT balanced, right? My entire argument was that since totems have longer cds and harder to replace they should have more then 5HP which is exactly what you are agreeing with. The quote is still relevant since T3 does not address totem HP which is what I am arguing for. TR only lets you recover after a totem has been killed and my point is that totems like SBT/CPT/Stormlash don't live long enough to be effective the first time so using them earlier the second time changes nothing if they can die just as quick (plus their effects are not instant). It is not at all the same as "easy to replace". And TP is still vulnerable to ranged spells that can one shot them, plus would rely on LOS.

You missed the point of the quote again, and it wasn't taken out of context but rather deals directly with what I was talking about. I very specifically said in the past totem's low HP was balanced because they also had low CD's, "easy to kill, easy to replace". Endus claimed I made this rule up and they did not balance totem's disadvantage with an advantage, and that balance did not work like that at all. I showed him that indeed it does (for totem's atleast) and GC himself used it as justification. I didn't say that was their rule for MoP, but rather how they have been balancing totems and so if totem's had longer cd's then it makes sense to have more HP. Other then base 5%HP on all totems, I suggested specific totems to have 10%HP cause of very long cd's or durations: SBT, SLT, and Stormlash.

And that's where Protoman's argument falls apart for me. I wanted him to convince me that we need defenses beyond the 5% baseline but I just can't see it. With the exception of Stormlash and primal pet totems. If he was just arguing for 5% baseline, I'd say "right on!." At the very least, 5% baseline would mean casters can't wand or auttoattack our totems. Then for people who want extra protection they can use the glyph. When you combine that with with our tier3 talents, our totems gain all the protection they need.

Well we both agree on base 5%HP, as well as 10%HP on Stormlash. I didn't mention Elem totems but I agree it should be a % and not static number. So basically you just don't agree with my wanting 10%HP on SLT and SBT. I would be fine with 5% on SLT but for a 3min cd I think it deserves more. But you yourself pointed to HTT and MTT as needing 10%HP cause they have long durations and need to live long enough to get some benefit from them. That is the exact same argument I am using for SBT, our one talented defensive cd that has a 30sec duration, which is double that of MTT and just as important. At it's current base 5HP it can be killed within 5 sec. It has some "frontload" effect, but only 40% and if it stays at 5HP it should be alot more like 60-70% otherwise more HP so you can get atleast 2-3 shields before it dies.

As I've said before I don't particularly care for CotE, its fine for resto (with MTT and SLT) but not so much for me, since I'm elemental. The only totems that I would find useful to reset are Capacitor and Healing Tide Totem and maybe Stonebulwark but that ones iffy for me and so is capacitor because now I can't throw it.

CotE is pretty weak for DPS specs, which is too bad and makes me think it should work on 5min cd's or give DPS specs some good medium length cd's. It's pretty much the only choice for PVE for all specs, but for PVP only good for Resto while DPS specs will most likely go for TR or maybe TP.

Totemic Projection works for all of our totems. We can throw capacitor and earthbind/earthgrab towards our enemies. And we can keep away/protect totems like stormlash, pets , stonebulwark, healing tide, and if resto mana tide. You can project more but those are the ones that I'd want to keep away from opponents more and since they all have at least a 30 yard range that is more than possible. Enemies can't kill totems that they can't see, projection makes it that much easier to LoS our totems.

I doubt the effectiveness of TP personally. You still need to be in 30yds of totems, which means also in range of an enemies spells. You also have to drop totem, then click TP, then target to redrop....so if your not fast enough totem could be killed before you port it. If you hide it in LoS then that will buy you some time, but if it's something important like MTT it will still be focused on. There are arena mods that warn you when certain cd's, abilities, or totems are used plus track them so you can predict when they will use it again once it's off CD.

[shell]

You realize by agreeing with me that all totems should get 5%HP baseline you are actually saying that totems are NOT balanced, right?

Yes, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I just don't think the totems that you used as examples need anymore than 5% health, other than stormlash and the primal pets.

My entire argument was that since totems have longer cds and harder to replace they should have more then 5HP which is exactly what you are agreeing with.

This is the problem for me. It wasn't your 'entire' argument. The 5% argument was fine. Where it started to fall apart for me was when you started arguing that health needed to be proportional to the cooldown. The examples you used don't fit for me because the cooldown is either shorter than 3 minutes or the effects of the totems are frontloaded.

Well we both agree on base 5%HP, as well as 10%HP on Stormlash.

Exactly right.

So basically you just don't agree with my wanting 10%HP on SLT and SBT.

Exactly right.

But you yourself pointed to HTT and MTT as needing 10%HP cause they have long durations and need to live long enough to get some benefit from them. That is the exact same argument I am using for SBT

For me it doesn't fit. Even if I were to agree with your statement that it isn't frontloaded enough, it's only a 1 minute cooldown. SLT is a 3 minute cooldown but that doesn't fit for me either because the effects are frontloaded.

I doubt the effectiveness of TP personally.

We'll see what we see until then its undetermined.

[Zeken]

Endus, I hate to beat a dead horse here; but I think you're confused about disadvantages/advantages and game theory.

You bring up a number of examples of 'disadvantages' in games. To get started, I won't dwell on the fact that 3 of your examples compare games of probabilities/chance, to a game (in this case, a specific example) where the issue is non-chance related. (Though it should be noted that these kinds of games are two completely different beasts.) On to my point:

In Chess there is a 8x8 square, each unit is allowed a certain form of movement. We can assume that the base movement is that of the pawn. It is (excluding special rules) allowed to move 1 square forward at a time. You mention the bishop is allowed to move any number of squares along a diagonal. I would feel comfortable saying that the bishop has an advantage over the pawn, it is allowed to move any number of squares along it's diagonal! Aside from capturing, the pawn is not allowed to move on a diagonal. The disadvantage of the bishop is that, unlike the queen, it cannot move straight along the vertical or horizontal.

In a earlier post, someone pointed this difference between advantage and limitation, and you replied with this comment:

Nobody is saying they CAN'T have advantages, I'm just saying that it doesn't NEED an offsetting advantage. That's the misstep. Of course there CAN be, but it's not necessary from a game design point of view, nor in many cases even desirable.

In every game of skill, an advantage is offset by a disadvantage (and vice-versa). Without this, games would have in them options that were clearly superior/inferior. (Please note I am talking about BASE design. Obviously when you get a +15% to crit, there is no disadvantage.) These advantages/disadvantages do not need to be balanced, for instance: The pawn has the advantage of being able to move forward 1 square, and to capture on the diagonal. However, the pawn has the serious disadvantage of being restricted from all other forms of movement on the chess board.

On to WoW: Please give me a non-encounter based disadvantage that a class has, without being provided an advantage.

Rogues are disadvantaged in that they cannot perform up to their full potential at range, they are given a semi-balancing advantage of being able to operate in melee fine. Elemental Shamans have the opposite situation, we are fine at range, and do less than optimally in melee.

Hunters/Loks have the disadvantage of not operating at full capacity without their pet/demon, however, they are able to solo mobs easier as well as having another controllable character that they can use to do any number of things with. (Warlock pets have different abilities, same with Hunter pets)

Shamans are able to summon totems that provide the same buffs/abilities other classes get that are static, and can be easily destroyed and put on a (sometimes) lengthy cooldown. They are not offered anything in return, and since totems are a unique and base feature to shamans, I can see why the OP has an issue with this.

That being said, beta is beta, and I'm sure there will be plenty of tweaking with totem health/defensive options/CDs/totem management so it remains a fun staple of the class! So there's no need for anyone to get in such a huff about it!

[Endus]

Shamans are able to summon totems that provide the same buffs/abilities other classes get that are static, and can be easily destroyed and put on a (sometimes) lengthy cooldown. They are not offered anything in return, and since totems are a unique and base feature to shamans, I can see why the OP has an issue with this.

The problem with that is that Shaman get plenty. We're just not offered in directly. Totem health is a drawback, we have a whole bunch of strengths in other ways to make up for that. A lot of those are in various forms of utility, but that's what totems bring, too.

A lot of the argument is that totem survivability hasn't improved since Vanilla, despite the changes since, and that's just not true. Not only did they remove buff totems, allowing us to (mostly, in terms of the general buff overhaul) keep the buffs as auras which allows us better "survivability" on those buffs while improving out utility toolkit, we've also gotten the totem talent tier, two of which wouldn't make much sense WITHOUT totems based as CDs (Totemic Restoration and Call of the Elements), which is the complaint about the current system. Additionally, there's the Glyph of Totemic Vigor if you really think that's not enough.

So acting as if totems have had disadvantages added but no benefits added to "make up" for that, even though you can't really do that within a specific mechanic necessarily as that argument attempts to, that idea that totem survivability has remained constant is just not true. It's been pretty significantly improved. Whether it's improved ENOUGH is a different argument; I've suggested boosting base totem health to ~5%. That's an "is it tuned right" argument, though, and what I've been arguing against is the "we're way behind and nothing's being improved on" stuff, which is just patently false.

Frankly, I don't think they've really done a first passover for numbers tweaking yet. Plenty of time in the beta still, and the PTR after, to provide constructive feedback. Just make sure it's constructive; part of why I attack these kinds of arguments here is because some people use these forums as a "testing ground" for ideas before taking them to the official feedback forums, and I'd rather catch as much ignorable feedback here as we can, to improve on the quality over there. Posting a big post QQing about how Shaman are overlooked and the devs don't care about us is just going to get a post from GC saying "we're not forgetting you, give us reasonable feedback". So skip that part and get to the constructive, reasonable feedback, is my stance.

[Protoman]

This is the problem for me. It wasn't your 'entire' argument. The 5% argument was fine. Where it started to fall apart for me was when you started arguing that health needed to be proportional to the cooldown. The examples you used don't fit for me because the cooldown is either shorter than 3 minutes or the effects of the totems are frontloaded.

(@SBT) For me it doesn't fit. Even if I were to agree with your statement that it isn't frontloaded enough, it's only a 1 minute cooldown. SLT is a 3 minute cooldown but that doesn't fit for me either because the effects are frontloaded.

Well 1min cd is long compared to our 15sec or less cd on totems in the past. But more importantly is that SBT is a talented defensive CD which shares a tier with AS and NG, neither of them are dispellable or can be negated. SBT also has a 30sec duration to take full advantage of it's benefits, while something like MTT has 18 seconds and built in 10%HP. This talent has a HUGE weakness in it's vulnerability making it very undesirable for PVP. You can't rely on SBT to protect you, the only guarantee is that it can be killed easily under 5 sec (so only one shield) with any damage.

There should be some reliability and guaranteed effectiveness for a talented defensive CD, and SBT simply does not do that. It really deserves to have 10%HP, since that will hopefully give you about 10sec of protection (two shields)....plus the added defensive benefit of less direct damage if they are targetting a totem instead of you. With 5%HP you can prob still kill the totem with 2 hits, like SS and ES, so still very possible to kill under 5 sec.

SBT is not frontloaded enough IMO, cause the first shield is not >50% of total effect. Right now it has 40% out of total in the first shield and I think it would be better to make it more like 60-70% so you get majority effect right away and if killed or replaced not a total loss. I will agree that 5% for SLT is fine considering it only lasts 6 seconds and that should be enough to let it tick for a few seconds.

Endus, I hate to beat a dead horse here; but I think you're confused about disadvantages/advantages and game theory.

Shamans are able to summon totems that provide the same buffs/abilities other classes get that are static, and can be easily destroyed and put on a (sometimes) lengthy cooldown. They are not offered anything in return, and since totems are a unique and base feature to shamans, I can see why the OP has an issue with this.

You are right. I'm not sure what Endus' obsession with disadvantages is honestly....he quoted something by GC talking about disadvantages with rogue's CP's and tried to apply that to everything in the game, or any game for that matter. As far as MMO's or WoW is concerned, alot of mechanics tend to have both advantages or disadvantages. It doesn't make sense to stick a class with a completely inferior mechanic with no advantage at all, especially when it comes to a signature class mechanic like totems.

It IS desirable to have both advantages and disadvantages in WoW to make a common mechanic different from each other but still have it's moments where it can shine. Take Interrupts for example, you might think Wind Shear sucks cause it only has a 2 sec lockout (disadvantage), until you realize that it's also got a very short cd of 6 sec (advantage). Or CC, a warrior might think his fear shout CC is not good at all cause it has a 1min cd and you can't spam it but it's also an aoe cc where you can still damage opponents being feared. Plus, going back to the idea of overall balance between classes, warriors have other stuns too which help balance their ability to control an opponent.

Shaman's Totem's in the past have had clear advantages and disadvantages with their cd's and HP. Currently in MoP one of our major advantages has been neutered yet we still have our big disadvantage and it has become even more of a crutch since many of our long cd totems are vital to perform and be effective like SBT for protection, so losing a major cd in only a few seconds greatly devalues the ability and the whole totem system becomes a burden instead of unique/different/fun that had certain factors being better or worse then a typical cd spell.

I hope they give totems a proper update too, I'm waiting on ALOT of Shaman updates. 5%HP baseline will really fix alot of the issues along with 10%HP on SBT and Stormlash. Then I think totems will be solid.

[Endus]

You are right. I'm not sure what Endus' obsession with disadvantages is honestly....he quoted something by GC talking about disadvantages with rogue's CP's and tried to apply that to everything in the game, or any game for that matter. As far as MMO's or WoW is concerned, alot of mechanics tend to have both advantages or disadvantages. It doesn't make sense to stick a class with a completely inferior mechanic with no advantage at all, especially when it comes to a signature class mechanic like totems.

I wouldn't still be talking about it if you folks didn't keep coming back to it.

Again, the only relevant point with regards to advantages/limitations/etc is that the class as a whole is what determines balance. If one specific mechanic has some disadvantages, but there are advantages in other mechanics that we have, giving our total performance the same general "oomph" as anyone else, we're balanced. Pulling that one "weak" mechanic out and claiming we're broken means ignoring those advantages, and it's not a productive line of discussion. You need to consider the whole class.

Shaman's Totem's in the past have had clear advantages and disadvantages with their cd's and HP. Currently in MoP one of our major advantages has been neutered yet we still have our big disadvantage and it has become even more of a crutch since many of our long cd totems are vital to perform and be effective like SBT for protection, so losing a major cd in only a few seconds greatly devalues the ability and the whole totem system becomes a burden instead of unique/different/fun that had certain factors being better or worse then a typical cd spell.

I hope they give totems a proper update too, I'm waiting on ALOT of Shaman updates. 5%HP baseline will really fix alot of the issues along with 10%HP on SBT and Stormlash. Then I think totems will be solid.

And this is what I meant. They DID give totems this update. Glyph of Totemic Vigor, buff totems changed to auras, and a new talent tier with two of the three choices being explicitly about reducing the totem CDs that have been introduced.

We can discuss whether this is ENOUGH of an improvement, but seriously, stop acting like totems' restrictions haven't changed since Vanilla, since that's patently not true.

[Protoman]

I wouldn't still be talking about it if you folks didn't keep coming back to it.

Again, the only relevant point with regards to advantages/limitations/etc is that the class as a whole is what determines balance. If one specific mechanic has some disadvantages, but there are advantages in other mechanics that we have, giving our total performance the same general "oomph" as anyone else, we're balanced. Pulling that one "weak" mechanic out and claiming we're broken means ignoring those advantages, and it's not a productive line of discussion. You need to consider the whole class.

I realize that in general most balance is done looking at the whole picture and comparing to others, like how I mentioned CC and Warrior's Intim Shout might seem lame with a 1min cd but if you compare their stuns and stuff too in equals out with other classes. But a mechanic shouldn't have ZERO advantages, like Intim shout is still an aoe group CC plus you can damage them without breaking it. If totems are just spells and cd's but on a stick that can be killed by any class instead of dispelled by only a few classes its totally inferior and not "fun" or compelling "signature" mechanic. There is supposed to be something to make it stand out and feel different, weaker then a regular cd in some ways but also stronger in others.

For totems that was their short/no cd's, stuff like tremor and cleansing which automated dispels so you were free to do other things, and stuff like ebind being easier for us to use more often then a warrior with piercing howl or any other aoe slow. Right now I am not seeing much to make totems feel powerful in any way. With no noticeable or unique advantage it brings little appeal to a "signature class mechanic". So if no major advantage, atleast give us less disadvantages like more HP.

Regarding balance on the whole, you can argue that something like Stormlash wasn't meant for PVP and that's why it has 5HP and one shot kill cause Shaman will be competitive with or without it. But SBT is a talented defensive cd and vital to Shaman performance, it can be killed easily and it totally devalues their main defensive CD plus something they are balanced WITH, not without. There is no reason it should have 5HP, it should be 5%HP or preferable 10%HP considering it's designed to last for 30sec.

And this is what I meant. They DID give totems this update. Glyph of Totemic Vigor, buff totems changed to auras, and a new talent tier with two of the three choices being explicitly about reducing the totem CDs that have been introduced.

We can discuss whether this is ENOUGH of an improvement, but seriously, stop acting like totems' restrictions haven't changed since Vanilla, since that's patently not true.

They gave totems an update, which is great, but I still think it's lacking or "not enough" of an improvement. And I truly appreciate the good changes don't get me wrong, I just want totems to be a fun signature mechanic and not something we feel is a drawback to our class. I never said they haven't changed either. My whole argument has been all about how much our totems have changed. We have lost some signature totems and gained new ones. But this came with longer CD's and loss of our "signature aspect" of totems as unique effects that are easy to kill but easy to replace.

I know we have the glyph, but I personally feel the 5%HP should be given baseline and then glyph removed or just limited to certain totems. I feel its balanced since we lost a signature aspect with low cd's, and this helps reduce their disadvantage. You and others have agreed you won't mind 5%HP given to most totems. I feel confident that Blizz will realize totems deserve 5%HP baseline instead of the glyph, just like I knew they would eventually remove the LS/WS stack charges instead of make us glyph for it (and hopefully realize that for Imp GW soon too).

The talents do help the root problem, not to mention one is on an 8min cd and the other relies on your totem dying first. The problem is not how often you can use them, but whether their actual effects when you DO use them last long enough to be effective and make a difference. If CPT/SBT/Stormlash can be killed under 5 sec then being able to use them again doesn't make much difference since they can be killed just as quick the second time and still no chance to use their effects.

Regarding Totemic Restoration, I think it would be alot more interesting if along with reducing the cd of a killed totem it also increases that totems HP by 5-10% next time you use it, which would give you a much better chance of getting the totem to live long enough to be effective.....whether that is to get the stun off w/ CPT, or give you 2-3 shields instead of just 1 w/ SBT, or give majority of the damage bonus (>5sec) from Stormlash.

And about totem buffs/auras...while I appreciate the update, I don't think it's so significant that we should be content and not expect more improvements regarding totems. Separation of buffs from utility/dps/defense is something that other classes with similar setups had gotten an update for much earlier in Cata Beta. For example, Pallys with buffs as blessings and utility in the form of hands, exclusive with only other buffs or utility but not both, or locks curses (debuffs) vs banes (dps) and not choosing curse of elements to buff the raid or curse of agony for more personal dps. Because our update has come so late, along with other additions, the new problems for totems have been overshadowed by all these new changes. They might want to see how things play out with all the new changes, but I keep pressing the issue for HP cause I'm sure it will become a big cause of concern for Shaman when MoP is released.

[Endus]

I realize that in general most balance is done looking at the whole picture and comparing to others, like how I mentioned CC and Warrior's Intim Shout might seem lame with a 1min cd but if you compare their stuns and stuff too in equals out with other classes. But a mechanic shouldn't have ZERO advantages, like Intim shout is still an aoe group CC plus you can damage them without breaking it. If totems are just spells and cd's but on a stick that can be killed by any class instead of dispelled by only a few classes its totally inferior and not "fun" or compelling "signature" mechanic. There is supposed to be something to make it stand out and feel different, weaker then a regular cd in some ways but also stronger in others.

It's supposed to make the class "feel" different, yes. That doesn't mean it needs to bring direct advantages. It's basically a secondary resource system, of a sort; it limits our capacity to use abilities, though admittedly significantly more indirectly than most other resource systems. The one-per-element factor, and the fragility factor, both combined, apply to this. It also limits us by providing a concrete radius within which we need to play.

The purpose of resource systems is to shape gameplay by providing limitations. I'm being specific here not because I think you don't "get" this, but because I want to be VERY clear about the equivalency I'm drawing, so as to not give the wrong impression. That purpose means that resource systems, as compared to "no resource system", are inherently disadvantageous. Do those resource systems have advantages compared to other resource systems? Absolutely. But on an absolute level, no class' performance is improved by the existence of the resource system. I would argue, and I think you'd agree, that the limitations here provide for an improvement in gameplay; it creates additional strategic requirements to manage your Runes properly as a Death Knight, for instance. So while it limits your capacity to "do as much DPS as you can", it improves the "fun" factor by making the class more complicated and strategic.

And totems serve essentially the same purpose, for Shaman. They don't need absolute advantages compared to "no totems at all", since resource systems don't work that way in the first place. The limitations they provide shape our gameplay into certain strategic forms, which is the purpose and intent of resource systems in the first place.

That's why I don't accept that totems need inherent, absolute advantages beyond their individual effects. Mana doesn't have any inherent, absolute advantages beyond its ability to let you cast spells. That doesn't mean Mana is archaic and broken and in need of updating.

[Chimaera]

Protoman, there are some tactical advantages to totems, namely that they can be hidden out of line of sight, and that they have to be manually targeted so they cannot be arena1-5 macro purged, so do not be so dismissive to them. I understand the former one does not apply to CPT but that is a concern for that totem specifically.

I am not opposed to them having a base % hp though. I think it would be appropriate that a caster cannot auto attack them down in one hit, nor a quick auto attack from a 1 hander. Another answer to the ability to them being killed without spending any resources would be to simply make them immune to auto attack.

What would be really cool would be that the glyph of totemic encirclement dropped duplicates, a la putting up junk buffs before popping your big dispelable cooldown.