Mantra of Evasion (error?)

[Chri478n]

so i have been lvling my monk recently, and think actually its lot of fun, however when i got the mantra of evasion i was all excited bout the 15% dodge chance, however, it does not seem to give 15% cause atm i got 13,77% dodge from dex alone, when i got the mantra on i got 26,7% meaning thats only 13% increase, is there a tooltip that hasn't been updated or something here, or is it a bug ?

[Celidion]

Diminishing Returns I believe.

[Loxxie]

I gives you a 15% chance to dodge the attacks you're not already dodging. Ehm, does that make sense? :P

[RaoBurning]

It's 15% boost on what you already have, not a straight 15%. It's multiplicative, not additive. It's confusing, I know, because some things are one way and some are the other with no visible rhyme or reason.

At least, I think so. We would start hitting absurd dodge chances otherwise. Maybe some Diminishing Returns tossed in for good measure. The guys who write the Diablo Wiki need to quit playing and start updating :P

[Deleted]

I gives you a 15% chance to dodge the attacks you're not already dodging. Ehm, does that make sense? :P

This. It obviously can't simply add 15% to your dodge value, that would make dex-stacking monks with the right skills unhittable easily. It adds as much dodge as you need to dodge x% more attacks than you currently do.

[Chri478n]

ah ok, i agree that is quite confusing, cause i had tried to multiply my current dodge with 15% thinking it was that, obviously it would have been alot lower if that was the case, so if it is as u guys say that it increases the "amount of dodges" then it might make more sense ^^ ty for responses =P

[Duskmourne]

It simply adds 15%. However, dodge suffers from diminishing returns.

[xxf2dxx]

Mantra of Evasion was actually nerfed shortly before the game itself was released and around the time they introduced the current model they have for the skills UI now in place. For some reason they never actually decided to fix the tooltip and seem to have skipped over it with the recent patch that was supposed to fix tooltips.

[Beace]

A lot of different theories going on here. Diminishing returns, 15% of current value, 15% bonus to "attacks you're not already dodging".

15% of current value is obviously ridiculously wrong. OP is getting 13% extra dodge from the Mantra, and 15% of his dex-based 13.77% is just ~2%.

OP has 87% chance of getting hit. 15% of that is ~13%, which matches OP values very well. I'm guessing this is it, despite how weird it seems.

I also tried it on my lvl 43 monk. I have 25.4% dodge chance unbuffed, meaning 74.6% chance to get hit. 15% of 74.6% is 11.2%, so if this theory is correct, my new dodge with Mantra up should be 25.4 + 11.2 = 36.6%. Which is exactly what shows up for me in-game.

That's obviously how it works. I guess if you just look at the dodge value, this is indeed a sort of diminishing return. The higher base dodge chance you have, the smaller +% the mantra will give you. I suspect if you look at avg dmg taken, there's no diminishing returns though (but I haven't done any math on that, so could be wrong).

[Deleted]

A lot of different theories going on here. Diminishing returns, 15% of current value, 15% bonus to "attacks you're not already dodging".

15% of current value is obviously ridiculously wrong. OP is getting 13% extra dodge from the Mantra, and 15% of his dex-based 13.77% is just ~2%.

OP has 87% chance of getting hit. 15% of that is ~13%, which matches OP values very well. I'm guessing this is it, despite how weird it seems.

I also tried it on my lvl 43 monk. I have 25.4% dodge chance unbuffed, meaning 74.6% chance to get hit. 15% of 74.6% is 11.2%, so if this theory is correct, my new dodge with Mantra up should be 25.4 + 11.2 = 36.6%. Which is exactly what shows up for me in-game.

That's obviously how it works. I guess if you just look at the dodge value, this is indeed a sort of diminishing return. The higher base dodge chance you have, the smaller +% the mantra will give you. I suspect if you look at avg dmg taken, there's no diminishing returns though (but I haven't done any math on that, so could be wrong).

Exactly this, just tested it myself as well.

[yurano]

A lot of different theories going on here. Diminishing returns, 15% of current value, 15% bonus to "attacks you're not already dodging".

15% of current value is obviously ridiculously wrong. OP is getting 13% extra dodge from the Mantra, and 15% of his dex-based 13.77% is just ~2%.

OP has 87% chance of getting hit. 15% of that is ~13%, which matches OP values very well. I'm guessing this is it, despite how weird it seems.

I also tried it on my lvl 43 monk. I have 25.4% dodge chance unbuffed, meaning 74.6% chance to get hit. 15% of 74.6% is 11.2%, so if this theory is correct, my new dodge with Mantra up should be 25.4 + 11.2 = 36.6%. Which is exactly what shows up for me in-game.

That's obviously how it works. I guess if you just look at the dodge value, this is indeed a sort of diminishing return. The higher base dodge chance you have, the smaller +% the mantra will give you. I suspect if you look at avg dmg taken, there's no diminishing returns though (but I haven't done any math on that, so could be wrong).

In other words, mantra of evasion is a flat 15% damage reduction (in terms of dodge). (1-.366) / (1-.254) = 0.85

Aka there is no diminishing returns as you have said.

[aggixx]

Yes, there are no diminishing returns. You can calculate your chance to dodge a given attack by using the following formula:
(1 - Dodgebuff1 ) * ( 1 - Dodgebuff2) ....

However the simplest way to explain it is that the roll is done once for each source of dodge, for example:

You've got a 13.77% dodge from dexterity and 15% from Mantra of Evasion:

1. A random number is generated between 0 and 100. If that number is lower than 13.77, then you dodge the attack, if not then go to next step.
2. A random number is generated between 0 and 100. If that number is lower than 15, then you dodge the attack, if not then go to next step.
3. Attack hits.

Note: That's not technically how it works in game but the outcome is the same.

[RaoBurning]

Yes, there are no diminishing returns. You can calculate your chance to dodge a given attack by using the following formula:
(1 - Dodgebuff1 ) * ( 1 - Dodgebuff2) ....

However the simplest way to explain it is that the roll is done once for each source of dodge, for example:

You've got a 13.77% dodge from dexterity and 15% from Mantra of Evasion:

1. A random number is generated between 0 and 100. If that number is lower than 13.77, then you dodge the attack, if not then go to next step.
2. A random number is generated between 0 and 100. If that number is lower than 15, then you dodge the attack, if not then go to next step.
3. Attack hits.

Note: That's not technically how it works in game but the outcome is the same.

And that boys and girls is why I'm not a Theory Crafter. I'm really good at math, just not at pulling it out of my ass.

That seems far more complicated than it should be. So basically, it's giving you an extra layer for monsters to have to roll at you, which results in an overall increased dodge chance. They have to roll against your base dodge (from Dex, 13.77%) and then test their roll again against the dodge buff (Mantra, 15%).

Yes?

[Beace]

And that boys and girls is why I'm not a Theory Crafter. I'm really good at math, just not at pulling it out of my ass.

That seems far more complicated than it should be. So basically, it's giving you an extra layer for monsters to have to roll at you, which results in an overall increased dodge chance. They have to roll against your base dodge (from Dex, 13.77%) and then test their roll again against the dodge buff (Mantra, 15%).

Yes?

Like he said, it doesn't actually work like that in game. But it's a correct way of thinking about it.

[aggixx]

And that boys and girls is why I'm not a Theory Crafter. I'm really good at math, just not at pulling it out of my ass.

That seems far more complicated than it should be. So basically, it's giving you an extra layer for monsters to have to roll at you, which results in an overall increased dodge chance. They have to roll against your base dodge (from Dex, 13.77%) and then test their roll again against the dodge buff (Mantra, 15%).

Yes?

Not quite, it actually works out to less chance to dodge. Imagine you had 2 sources of dodge that each gave 50% dodge. If they simply added together, then you would be invincible. If they work like they do in Diablo 3, that is that each roll is done seperately, then the mob essentially has to flip a coin and call it twice in a row in order to hit (the equivalent of a 75% chance to dodge).

Some chance > no chance

Edit: It's basically a form of multiplicative stacking that eliminates the need for Diminishing Returns. The way this works out means that a 10% dodge buff will always equate to 10% less damage taken. This means that the way dodge stacks makes it so that dodge's value is consistent no matter how much you have of it.

People often forget that when it comes to defensive stats, the important number is not the damage that you mitigate, but the damage that does not get mitigated.