Ban cheaters vs Customers Rights

[Deleted]

I dont really get the point of this topic .. in anycase yes, cheaters must and will be banned .

[reckoner04]

The problem for Blizzard is that their EULA might not be valid in Germany in the first place (at least in my interpretation), so whether the product is a license or not is not exactly set in stone.

I'm pretty sure it's similar in Switzerland. Things are certainly not as black/white as people in this thread make it out to be.

Not everyone lives in the USA.

[Deatheryn]

When Blizzard bans someone, forcing him to buy another copy of the game, it's acting against the law, since you have taken away your right to consume your product. A company cannot simply make their own laws that goes against the State laws.

Wait!,..What? Blizzard is forcing ppl to buy their game? Wow when did that start?

OT: No one is forced to do anything. Just like no one forced them to run botting programs on their computers. They chose to bot/cheat and with that choice agreed to the inherent risk of getting banned that comes w/ it.

[rhorle]

I'm pretty sure it's similar in Switzerland. Things are certainly not as black/white as people in this thread make it out to be.

Not everyone lives in the USA.

Then why are people assuming that Blizzard lawyers do and don't know anything about other countries laws? Blizzard uses pretty standard EULA that most MMOs use. Out of the thousands of people that have played MMOs in these countries not one has been challenged in court and was victorious. Could that be because the EULA isn't illegal after all?

[Amorac]

The problem for Blizzard is that their EULA might not be valid in Germany in the first place (at least in my interpretation), so whether the product is a license or not is not exactly set in stone.

Might be. What do you expect Blizzard (and other software companies) to do anyway?

The EULA is partly a protection for them, and also for other players (IE, the right of other players not to be impacted by someone who cheats, like say somebody in a FPS who can't be killed, or gets headshots everytime, or overflowing the RMAH with and creating a "monopoly" (just a example, not saying its happening).

If Germany nullifies these EULA's say goodbey to your pleasant online gaming experience, or see Blizzard and others leave Germany and not publish/run their games there anymore cause of to much hassle en high risc.

[Deleted]

Then why are people assuming that Blizzard lawyers do and don't know anything about other countries laws? Blizzard uses pretty standard EULA that most MMOs use. Out of the thousands of people that have played MMOs in these countries not one has been challenged in court and was victorious. Could that be because the EULA isn't illegal after all?

No one is saying it is illegal, just that it might not be valid and hold zero value as a legal document because of the consumer laws in some EU countries (or EU wide?). I think you understand that there's more to legal matters (especially contracts) than illegal vs legal.

Maybe no one has bothered to challenge the validity of the service/license type EULA because MMOs function like a service with continuous payments and such. Interesting to see how this all pans out.

Might be. What do you expect Blizzard (and other software companies) to do anyway?

The EULA is partly a protection for them, and also for other players (IE, the right of other players not to be impacted by someone who cheats, like say somebody in a FPS who can't be killed, or gets headshots everytime, or overflowing the RMAH with and creating a "monopoly" (just a example, not saying its happening).

If Germany nullifies these EULA's say goodbey to your pleasant online gaming experience, or see Blizzard and others leave Germany and not publish/run their games there anymore cause of to much hassle en high risc.

I don't know, and I 100% understand why they have these documents. That's why it's interesting to see. What I am pretty sure of though, is that your situation of Blizzard abandoning the EU market will not happen in any case.

[reckoner04]

Then why are people assuming that Blizzard lawyers do and don't know anything about other countries laws? Blizzard uses pretty standard EULA that most MMOs use. Out of the thousands of people that have played MMOs in these countries not one has been challenged in court and was victorious. Could that be because the EULA isn't illegal after all?

I don't know why people are assuming that, and I also don't know if they are assuming that at all, you probably just said that... And though I'm not really informed on the matter, I guess it's pretty safe to say that no single cheater has yet started a case against a gaming company like Blizzard. Botting companies have, and I think their activities have been ruled illegal (in Gemany) and their activities are clearly different from the cheating of the usual gamer (so they don't necessarily apply here as well).

Another reason might be that people have just been content until now (and regardless of whether D3 is technically a multiplayer game or not, many people expect/perceive it to be singleplayer with multiplayer support).

Just to make it clear, I knew beforehand that D3 is a multiplayer game and although I don't like it personally (I'd like to play without lags) I accept it and understand Blizzard's reasons to do it this way.

[Kaliani]

So you get banned and are FORCED to buy another copy of the game? Harsh.

[Tomservo]

i think OP specializes in bird law

Infracted

[Kujako]

The problem for Blizzard is that their EULA might not be valid in Germany in the first place (at least in my interpretation), so whether the product is a license or not is not exactly set in stone.

If the EULA is invalid, then you have no right to play the game as it is ONLY the terms of service and end user license agreement that legaly give you access to Blizzards servers.

[reckoner04]

If the EULA is invalid, then you have no right to play the game as it is ONLY the terms of service and end user license agreement that legaly give you access to Blizzards servers.

So you are saying that they are selling nothing? In that case it would probably go under scam or something along those lines.

[Kujako]

So you are saying that they are selling nothing?

Sure, much in the same way the theater selling movie tickets, or the stadium selling playoff tickets, are selling "nothing". You are buying access, under a set of rules that you must agree to. The servers, like a movie theater, are private property and you do not normally have access to them. Only through the agreement you enter into are you granted access. If the terms of the agreement are invalid, then you do not legally have access to the server.

[Deleted]

If the EULA is invalid, then you have no right to play the game as it is ONLY the terms of service and end user license agreement that legaly give you access to Blizzards servers.

Come on now, there's no need to throw common sense out of the window. I doubt they could get away with selling nothing, unless they advertise it as nothing.

[rhorle]

Another reason might be that people have just been content until now (and regardless of whether D3 is technically a multiplayer game or not, many people expect/perceive it to be singleplayer with multiplayer support).

D3 is an online game and not just technically. It has been created as, marketed as, discussed as, and reviewed as an online game. People can expect and percieve whatever they want to but that doesn't mean they are correct or have and valid basis for those expectations. Blizzard did everything in their power to tell people that Diablo 3 was online only.

EULA and TOS are legal because Blizzard cant force you to do something with a contract that has no legal value. If they had no legal value people could sue Blizzard for anything they do because there are no terms to the service and no license agreement. They are legal for whatever country you are playing from otherwise you could sue Blizzard and win.

Most Botting companies that have tried to sue Blizzard have done so not because they have been banned but because Blizzard was/is trying to stop the development and sale of their botting software. Because botting companies know that Blizzard can ban anyone from Blizzard's products and nothing illegal is going on. Blizzard however doesn't just ban people they go after the source as much as possible. Because users will always cheat, buy gold, hack, and whatever else that is against the EULA and ToS. But if you take out the source then you remove a large portion of those violations.

[Kujako]

Come on now, there's no need to throw common sense out of the window. I doubt they could get away with selling nothing, unless they advertise it as nothing.

They are selling access to their servers. Not sure why this is hard to understand, especially when it is clearly outlined in the license agreement.

[rhorle]

So you are saying that they are selling nothing? In that case it would probably go under scam or something along those lines.

Every game published in in the last 10 years has only been selling you a license for that game. When you buy a game you are purchasing a license for that game and no part of the actual game. It isn't a scam it is called selling a license for a product.

[namelessone]

You do not in any way, shape or form BUY DIABLO 3. You license the right to a limited use access from Blizzard.

[glowpipe]

is this actualy a thread about someone crying because he cheated and broke the rules in a game and got banned ?

Damn internet, you scary

[Bitlovin]

we need to voice our concerns so that this doesn't become a trend.

The last thing we want is judges and lawyers who barely understand how email works to start making decisions about game design. It wouldn't end well.

[reckoner04]

The AGB (as they would be called in Germany) aren't simply invalid. It's just they don't hold as much power (don't have the same potential, not sure how to formulate this) and have to be laid out in a special way to be valid. As I said, things aren't as black/white as people would probably like it to be.