I'ts true, big offhands are (intended to be) back!

[Pikapika]

I am afraid that even after multiple readings, I don't get it.

I don't see why both "a dagger is an optimal weapon for all three rogue spec" and "an optimal offhand weapon for combat rogues is any agility one-hander" can't be true. They don't exclude each other.

It would nice if they didn't, but with current poison mechanics on beta they do.

[Verain]

Just for the record- it would very MUCH be nice for dual slow weapons to work. Certainly, it would be aesthetically pleasing to have matching swords, maces, or even axes again.

[Raugnaut]

Presumably they try very hard to make the use of (at least one) dagger optimal for all Rogues, since Agility daggers are the only type of itemized weapon in the game that's viable for exactly one class.

For the longest time, Agility axes with expertise were itemized for exactly one SPEC- Enhancement Shamans. And yet, we rarely saw agility axes.

Blizz does loot tables pretty stupidly for some reason- In a raid where only one class got legendaries, the first step of the legendary was extremely easy to obtain, (Daggers for rogues), there were 2 daggers drop, 2 of them.

[Imnick]

I am afraid that even after multiple readings, I don't get it.

I don't see why both "a dagger is an optimal weapon for all three rogue spec" and "an optimal offhand weapon for combat rogues is any agility one-hander" can't be true. They don't exclude each other.

Then it honestly looks like you only read my post?
This topic is about how Blizzard is changing their philosophy so that ideally it would be just as optimal to dual wield slow one handed agility weapons as it is to wield one dagger and a slow agility weapon. So is that blue post.

If one-handed daggers were optimal for all rogue specs then that would mean that 2.6 speed one handers would not be.

[Bovan]

Blizz does loot tables pretty stupidly for some reason- In a raid where only one class got legendaries, the first step of the legendary was extremely easy to obtain, (Daggers for rogues), there were 2 daggers drop, 2 of them.

Unless I'm having a major brainfart at the moment, the only two dagger drops Rogues can use are 1.8 and 1.4 speed which definitely isn't the same. You have to consider that not everyone is getting a legendary. You have to make sure the people who are unable to get a legendary (for god knows what reason other than not being able to pay the gold for the encryption) need to be able to get a weapon as well.

Maybe I missed something though. But I do agree that loot tables since Wrath have been a nightmare, although T11 was decent.


Anyway on-topic,
Personally I think Rogues with two swords/axes/maces look stupid. It doesn't feel right at all, they look like low level Warriors before they are able to use plate gear with massive shoulders. I happen to like the slow/dagger combination although I do understand why people are so neurotic about everything being symmetrical. I'm glad we at least get the option now.

Still rather get a glyph that allows us to transmog offhand daggers to swords/axes/maces =/

[Raugnaut]

I am afraid that even after multiple readings, I don't get it.

I don't see why both "a dagger is an optimal weapon for all three rogue spec" and "an optimal offhand weapon for combat rogues is any agility one-hander" can't be true. They don't exclude each other.

The big thing, and the reason why Sub, at least, uses 2 daggers akin to Assasination, is that Poisons are a %-based proced, meaning the more hits one lands, the more poisons one procs. Having it as a PPM of say, 20 procs per minute would make it to where every minute, no matter the weapon, you would proc 20 poisons (15 is a better number maybe)

Unless I am mistaken, should PPM come out, both Sub and Combat could use any agility 1 hander in the off hand (Sub doesnt have any mechanics beyond poisons that means a higher dps using daggers in the off hand)

[Fae]

The thing is that they don't have to do anything with poisons. To make slow offhands viable, all the need to do is to compensate damage loss from poisons by some other damage.

Killing Spree is already there, alright. Combat Potency proc chance can be easily adjusted and hotfixed as well, as someone pointed out, there is no number specified by the tooltip so they can play with that all night long. And I am sure they can come with some other tweaks if necessary.

This way other specs would not be affected by any way.


Think about Fangs. No one would ever think about Combat using dual daggers and yet we did. We lost some Instant Poison, Killing Spree and Main Gauche damage but received more Combat Potency procs and more stats. At the end of the day, both setups were really close together. Otherwise we would not have gazillion "No'Kaled vs. legendary daggers" threads all around.

[wow]

Blizz does loot tables pretty stupidly for some reason- In a raid where only one class got legendaries, the first step of the legendary was extremely easy to obtain, (Daggers for rogues), there were 2 daggers drop, 2 of them.

Probably had something to do with the fact that you could get them on hm long before you could get the legendary and if you weren't first in line they needed something. Dragonwrath didn't stop there being like 6 caster weapons in firelands and you could even have many people on the quest at once unlike fangs.

[joeyray]

that's good. now add some +agi swords and i'll be a happy rogue again.

fuck the balance, i just wanna dual wield swords.

[Bovan]

fuck the balance, i just wanna dual wield swords.

This is something I just don't understand. People are saying all the time that they don't care about the DPS loss and that they just want to dual wield swords. What exactly is stopping you from doing that right now? Just get a sword, equip it in your offhand, and done.

Not trying to single you out joeyray, but your post just happened to be there at the wrong time on the wrong topic.

[shokter]

This is a bad reasoning, especially because with the new speed changes with only one dagger per tier we would be fine. If they keep flowing the loot tables with useless weapons is their fault.

Combat being 2.6/1.8 or 2.6/2.6 doesn't change a thing - for every tier we neeed no more than 1 dagger and 1 slow weapon.

I have a feeling there would be a huge outcry if there were only 1 agi dagger per tier.

[Verain]

This is something I just don't understand. People are saying all the time that they don't care about the DPS loss and that they just want to dual wield swords. What exactly is stopping you from doing that right now? Just get a sword, equip it in your offhand, and done.

Not trying to single you out joeyray, but your post just happened to be there at the wrong time on the wrong topic.

Well, right now, I think, he'd be giving up a LOT to dual wield swords as combat. Assuming you limit yourself JUST to 2.6 agi swords, what are your options at the moment?

Plus, it seems like it shouldn't be too hard to make combat work right with speeds, right? I mean, if you put ppm on CP (done), DP, and normalized spree... what's left? Is MG somehow not weapon speed invariant or something, to require adjusting? If so, that too. So like, 2-3 things.

[joeyray]

This is something I just don't understand. People are saying all the time that they don't care about the DPS loss and that they just want to dual wield swords. What exactly is stopping you from doing that right now? Just get a sword, equip it in your offhand, and done.

Not trying to single you out joeyray, but your post just happened to be there at the wrong time on the wrong topic.

right, let me clarify: what's stopping me is that i don't wanna gimp myself (i kinda assumed that was obvious ;p)

i don't care if rogues are underpowered compared to other classes, i just want dual sword (or dual wield whatever) rogues to be at the same level as all the other rogues.

there ;p

[Bovan]

right, let me clarify: what's stopping me is that i don't wanna gimp myself (i kinda assumed that was obvious ;p)

You are still gimping yourself in MoP (at the moment) and from the sounds of the blue post you are going to be when it goes live as well. Unless they make some big drastic changes you are only going to gimp yourself slightly less.

[joeyray]

You are still gimping yourself in MoP (at the moment) and from the sounds of the blue post you are going to be when it goes live as well. Unless they make some big drastic changes you are only going to gimp yourself slightly less.

according to the blue post quoted by OP (if i'm reading it right), I will be gimping myself a little. well I can live with that (defo better then gimping myself a lot, as it is now).

as combat anyway.

[Coldkil]

I have a feeling there would be a huge outcry if there were only 1 agi dagger per tier.

I couldn't care less. We just need 1 of them, more would be useless/redundant.

[Bovan]

according to the blue post quoted by OP (if i'm reading it right), I will be gimping myself a little. well I can live with that (defo better then gimping myself a lot, as it is now).

as combat anyway.

Well the point I'm trying to make is, where do you draw the line? Personally the way I see things is either you go for the most optimal setup that gives you the highest amount of DPS even if it's close to nothing, or you just do whatever you want. I'm just curious where people are drawing the line really.

[Incineration]

Well the point I'm trying to make is, where do you draw the line? Personally the way I see things is either you go for the most optimal setup that gives you the highest amount of DPS even if it's close to nothing, or you just do whatever you want. I'm just curious where people are drawing the line really.

How about, when the aesthetic choices you make impede on your ability to contribute to a fight. Or rather, if the difference in stats/damage output would've meant the death of a boss you'd otherwise have killed.

It's rather vague, I know...

[Bovan]

How about, when the aesthetic choices you make impede on your ability to contribute to a fight. Or rather, if the difference in stats/damage output would've meant the death of a boss you'd otherwise have killed.

It's rather vague, I know...

If that's the case I'd say it's always going to matter until you have all current content on farm. Before me and my guild had 8/8 heroic down, we had a bunch of <1% wipes on Spine heroic and was had two <1% wipes on Madness as well. I'd say now with all the nerfs we can easily faceroll through Dragon Soul so I guess a tiny smudge less DPS isn't going to matter, but hey that's just from my perspective.

I just find it a little odd that people aren't willing to take the DPS loss currently on live but they are willing to take the loss in MoP. All because blizzard now said they can. I'm aware the difference will be smaller but it just feels out of place to me.

[Mafic]

From a PVE point of view I don't see a slow off hand competing with a faster off hand. I suspect it was more of a PVP change, because having a slow off hand is advantageous during Kspree. Combat Potency working with slow off hands, and Shiv having a fixed energy cost, regardless of weapon speed, hints at this, so Combat isn't energy starved in PVP. It may come down to how Leeching Poison works with 1.8 speed vs 2.6 speed though if a slow off hand is worth using even in PVP.