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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Plenty of room in our club, Germany!
    I fully embrace being considered the bully along with America ! haha

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    What I get from this post, like every other post about Greece.

    Poor souls, those of corrupt European countries, Germany is evil and is the new America.
    Evil lies with power. It's obvious that now that Germany holds power over the indebted southern countries, there will be evil there. So let's not become victimists here. I'm not saying that Germany alone is to blame, but most posts in this thread were saying how Greeks were just evil lazy people living off the hardworking Germans, and that's a distorted vision of reality, because there's blame to be shared everywhere.

    Germany now wants the southern countries to swallow the same medicine they had to swallow to recover from their own debt crisis, from 2002 to 2005 (2010 Agenda). There's a big difference, and why the same medicine will not work for the countries in debt, now: 2002-2005 was a very expansive phase of world economy, in fact the most expansive since 1929, thanks to the momentum gained by China. A nation like Germany that lives off technological and heavy industry exports was in the best shape to actually profit from those austerity reforms, without hurting its citizens. Now it's quite the opposite: first, we are in a world-wide economic contraction, and most of the exports of the southern countries are prime matter and agro-food products, which have very little added value (so, they are in competition disadvantage with the countries that produce the same stuff but in much larger scale and much cheaper, like southeastern Asia).

    So Germany wants its southern neighbours to take a medicine that worked well for them, but it will work bad (it's already working bad, see what is happening to Spanish economy due to the austerity), because of ideology *cough*bild*cough*.
    But Germany also wants them to stay in the Euro, because the common currency favors German exportations all over Europe, and accept the bail-out, because the German banks are deeply exposed to the national debt of these countries (and the British too, which is why they are not making such a huge fuss of the bail-out, as it would be expected apriori). So Germany is pressed by their own banks to bail-out these countries, and the need of these countries for a bail-out forces them to accept the conditions Germany thinks correct (even if they are mistaken or miss-timed).

    That's the blame that lies on Germany. The blame that lies on the southern countries, on the other hand, is well, letting themselves get into such a hole of debt, and allowing their banking system to fester and become a real tombstone on their economies. This is obviously a bigger blame than Germany, but as you see, there's blame enough for everyone.

    The obvious solution, which slowly everybody is coming to terms to, is to accept that if we have a common currency, there has to be a common control over the banking systems, and a common control over the national budgets. These mechanisms, though, are way too important, too large and too politically involved to just let them be handled by the European Comission, so they would have to go to the European parlament. We have to stop working in terms of "serving my national voters" and start working in terms of "serving the European voters".

  3. #43
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    This whole thing about tearing up the contract and restructuring it is bollocks.

    Essentially what they are doing is say "You're giving us money and loaning it to us but WE are making the terms" - which is just bollocks, the loaner makes the terms, not the reciever.

    All I can say is thank fuck that communist didn't win, because as soon as he tore that up, all hell would break loose.

    You need to reduce spending, the way to do that is austerity measures, NOT being an arse and tearing up an agreement that you are in no position to tear up, and then doing nothing about your ridiculously high expenditures.
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    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  4. #44
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Evil lies with power. It's obvious that now that Germany holds power over the indebted southern countries, there will be evil there. So let's not become victimists here. I'm not saying that Germany alone is to blame, but most posts in this thread were saying how Greeks were just evil lazy people living off the hardworking Germans, and that's a distorted vision of reality, because there's blame to be shared everywhere.
    Evil lies with power? Germany has power, so therefore Germany must be evil? That's just silly.

    How is Germany being blamed for agreeing to help the other countries that will otherwise collapse, but putting conditions on that help? If the other countries don't want to agree to the preconditions, they're welcome not to accept the German aid. I don't think that would work out well for them, but it's not Germany's fault they're in the situation to begin with. Germany is trying to give them a road out, and they're complaining that the road is too bumpy.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    You need to reduce spending, the way to do that is austerity measures, NOT being an arse and tearing up an agreement that you are in no position to tear up, and then doing nothing about your ridiculously high expenditures.
    You understand that the economy is contracting big time in Greece? And that their industrial and commercial sectors are very antiquated and need modernization? But if the economy is contracting, there is no money to modernize, only to downsize companies. More downsizing leads to more unemployment, which means less money available to buy and bolster the interior economy. Which means less money to be collected by taxes, which in turn increases greatly the debt unless you further slash the budget, leading to even less money available and further contraction of the economy, which leads to... Rinse. Repeat.

    The economy will not recover without a great injection of money, at this moment, and with a strict control of that money to make sure that the sins of the past are not repeated. And since credits to greece from the worldwide banking system have stopped, the only possible influx is the bailout.
    But in exchange for the bailout, they are asking Greece to reduce spending, which at this moment, is only going to increase their debt, making the bail-out useless.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-19 at 09:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    Evil lies with power? Germany has power, so therefore Germany must be evil? That's just silly.

    How is Germany being blamed for agreeing to help the other countries that will otherwise collapse, but putting conditions on that help? If the other countries don't want to agree to the preconditions, they're welcome not to accept the German aid. I don't think that would work out well for them, but it's not Germany's fault they're in the situation to begin with. Germany is trying to give them a road out, and they're complaining that the road is too bumpy.
    Read the rest of the post, please. The biggest evil from Germany in this situation is twofold: making the picture of the greeks as lazy, greedy and corrupt (when it was a situation encouraged by the very own German banks), and attempting to force conditions for the bailout that will only deepen the hole where Greece is at.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Read the rest of the post, please. The biggest evil from Germany in this situation is twofold: making the picture of the greeks as lazy, greedy and corrupt (when it was a situation encouraged by the very own German banks), and attempting to force conditions for the bailout that will only deepen the hole where Greece is at.
    Are you in Germany? I can tell you, a lot of people in Germany don't think Greeks are ''lazy and don't pay taxes hur le durp''.

    What you see here in these forums doesn't represent Germany. In fact, most of the posters here aren't from Germany. Even then, if the Greeks want to call us nazis, then why can't we provoke them a bit and call them lazy? ;P

    I just think that blaming Germany like some people are doing is like the typical old bashing of America for the world's problems. Sure you can do it... but it gets old fast and just makes you look silly.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Tyrael View Post
    Are you in Germany? I can tell you, a lot of people in Germany don't think Greeks are ''lazy and don't pay taxes hur le durp''.
    Well, i'd consider Die Welt economic editorials, and Bild, to be very representative of the state of opinion in Germany.

    And you know, the ones in a position of power should be a bit condescending with us down and out XD lol

  8. #48
    Merely a Setback Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post

    Read the rest of the post, please. The biggest evil from Germany in this situation is twofold: making the picture of the greeks as lazy, greedy and corrupt (when it was a situation encouraged by the very own German banks), and attempting to force conditions for the bailout that will only deepen the hole where Greece is at.
    I did read the post. Germany has every right to put whatever conditions on the bailout they want. They're offering aid, but they have conditions they think will help ensure they'll get paid back. Whether or not that will work out well is another question, but you can't fault the Germans for putting conditions on the aid when they're being kind enough to offer it in the first place.

    As for portraying the Greeks as lazy, greedy, and corrupt, I hardly think that's an issue with Germany specifically. It's a stereotype that's grown organically from reports that tax evasion is a national sport in Greece and politicians largely have been corrupt. Germany is hardly the only place that has this stereotype of Greece. It may be quite true that the Greek citizens are industrious upstanding citizens, by and large, but those Greeks that aren't so honest and hardworking are what has caused this crisis, and are therefore who the attention is given. That's normal human nature, and not something to go after the Germans specifically for.
    'Twas a cutlass swipe or an ounce of lead
    Or a yawing hole in a battered head
    And the scuppers clogged with rotting red
    And there they lay I damn me eyes
    All lookouts clapped on Paradise
    All souls bound just contrarywise, yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

  9. #49
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    Germans are closing in on obesity, they are at 1/3 as many as you amurikans, soon we cant tell you apart!
    It also doesn't help that Germany looks almost identical to the Midwest.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    I did read the post. Germany has every right to put whatever conditions on the bailout they want.
    Except that the bailout isn't German, it's European. And Germany puts less money per capita than other countries like, let's say, Spain. But that's something that popular press *cough*bild*cough* "forgets" to tell to their readers.

    Of course, Germany can opt out offering the bailout. It would have to get itself out of the Euro, too.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by atsawin26 View Post
    http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/0a26a...44feabdc0.html

    As for the police, it has already taken sides: neo-nazis won by a landslide in polling stations where officers were assigned to vote.
    The more things change, the more they stay the same.
    Just had a conversation with someone about how easily the time of concentration camps can come back.

  12. #52
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by someotherguy View Post
    The more things change, the more they stay the same.
    Just had a conversation with someone about how easily the time of concentration camps can come back.
    Who would we put in this time? The Jews have gotten pretty damn scary in the last 70 years. Don't think anyone wants to fuck with them again.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Who would we put in this time? The Jews have gotten pretty damn scary in the last 70 years. Don't think anyone wants to fuck with them again.
    The times of racism are mostly gone. Now it's time to put only those with a different political opinion.

  14. #54
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    Who would we put in this time? The Jews have gotten pretty damn scary in the last 70 years. Don't think anyone wants to fuck with them again.
    Just because our nation doesn't subscribe to the belief of proportional force doesn't make us scary
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  15. #55
    Deleted
    Golden Dawn getting a small handful of parliamentary seats out of 300 shouldn't surprise anyone who knows a bit of Greek modern history or indeed understands the enormous pressure they are under. People are desperate. Far right knee jerking seems to be a pretty common response when uneducated people face crisis. This happens in every country, even if the party flag isn't as overt as Golden Dawn. Here in the UK we have BNP (British National Party); they're jokes really but I'd bet that if the UK gets as bad as Greece, support for the BNP will go up.

    Does this mean all Greeks are lazy fascists? Of course not. People believing it is probably the worst part for me.

    Greeks work the longest hours in the EU but get paid much less than their EU counterparts.

    Greece was occupied by Axis forces in the '40s. Now they're being occupied by the IMF.

    I don't doubt for a moment that the IMF knew exactly what they were doing in collusion with the former Greek Government. The decision to principally get Greece in to this crippling debt wasn't made by the public so we shouldn't blame the public, even if they are paying for it. That's punishment enough.

    My GF's family are Greek, they worked hard all of their lives, through post war, famine and dictatorship. They worked multiple jobs, paid extra into their pensions and now the best years of their lives' work have been for nothing; austerity is taking a further 600 Euro away from them each month. You have to ask yourself how you'd feel about that and whether you deserve the rest of the EU looking down your nose at you.

    Well educated, hard working people are losing their homes, children are too weak to do PE at school. After all the shit Greece has been through in the last 100 years, no wonder they're beginning to look a bit broken.
    Last edited by mmoc59bc4f3926; 2012-06-20 at 12:13 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaell View Post
    Golden Dawn getting a small handful of parliamentary seats out of 300 shouldn't surprise anyone who knows a bit of Greek modern history or indeed understands the enormous pressure they are under. People are desperate. Far right knee jerking seems to be a pretty common response when uneducated people face crisis. This happens in every country, even if the party flag isn't as overt as Golden Dawn. Here in the UK we have BNP (British National Party); they're jokes really but I'd bet that if the UK gets as bad as Greece, support for the BNP will go up.

    Does this mean all Greeks are lazy fascists? Of course not. People believing it is probably the worst part for me.

    Greeks work the longest hours in the EU but get paid much less than their EU counterparts.

    Greece was occupied by Axis forces in the '40s. Now they're being occupied by the IMF.

    I don't doubt for a moment that the IMF knew exactly what they were doing in collusion with the former Greek Government. The decision to principally get Greece in to this crippling debt wasn't made by the public so we shouldn't blame the public, even if they are paying for it. That's punishment enough.

    My GF's family are Greek, they worked hard all of their lives, through post war, famine and dictatorship. They worked multiple jobs, paid extra into their pensions and now the best years of their lives' work have been for nothing; austerity is taking a further 600 Euro away from them each month. You have to ask yourself how you'd feel about that and whether you deserve the rest of the EU looking down your nose at you.

    Well educated, hard working people are losing their homes, children are too weak to do PE at school. After all the shit Greece has been through in the last 100 years, no wonder they're beginning to look a bit broken.
    But could Greece continue to afford paying those extra 600€ each month? The people need to understand why this is being done, it's not pleasant for the citizens but cuts on spending have to be done.
    Last edited by mmoc8abe560117; 2012-06-20 at 12:38 AM.

  17. #57
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Decades of corruption, a severely depressed economy, threats from international monetary groups to suck eggs and do what they want or be allowed to crash into oblivion?

    Yeah it's not surprising that hard-right nationalist folks are growing in number. Europe never learned from it's history, and the powerful, wealthy nations attempting to control the less-powerful, less well-off nations is basically what kicked off both World Wars.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-19 at 05:02 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alakir the Windlord View Post
    But could Greece continue to afford paying those extra 600€ each month? The people need to understand why this is being done, it's not pleasant for the citizens but cuts on spending have to be done.
    Perhaps, but those choices should be made by the citizens. International and foreign powers forcing decisions on Greece will NOT improve the situation.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Decades of corruption, a severely depressed economy, threats from international monetary groups to suck eggs and do what they want or be allowed to crash into oblivion?

    Yeah it's not surprising that hard-right nationalist folks are growing in number. Europe never learned from it's history, and the powerful, wealthy nations attempting to control the less-powerful, less well-off nations is basically what kicked off both World Wars.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-19 at 05:02 PM ----------



    Perhaps, but those choices should be made by the citizens. International and foreign powers forcing decisions on Greece will NOT improve the situation.
    But they made the choice, Greece made the agreement with the troika. Also, they elected a pro bailout and austerity party last sunday. The EU is not an international organization, it's supranational organization, they can and should use any methods in their power to help Greece, as long as they are within the EU's principles.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Decades of corruption, a severely depressed economy, threats from international monetary groups to suck eggs and do what they want or be allowed to crash into oblivion?

    Yeah it's not surprising that hard-right nationalist folks are growing in number. Europe never learned from it's history, and the powerful, wealthy nations attempting to control the less-powerful, less well-off nations is basically what kicked off both World Wars.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-19 at 05:02 PM ----------



    Perhaps, but those choices should be made by the citizens. International and foreign powers forcing decisions on Greece will NOT improve the situation.
    When you:

    A) Give up control of your nation's currency

    and

    B) Accept foreign aid to prevent your overspending habits from toppling your entire nation

    you implicitly and explicitly agree to allow international powers to force decisions on you.

    People don't give you money for nothing. That's not the way things work. Even the bailouts to American corporations (Which should never have been allowed in the first place) came with some pretty stringent rules.

  20. #60
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    When you:

    A) Give up control of your nation's currency

    and

    B) Accept foreign aid to prevent your overspending habits from toppling your entire nation

    you implicitly and explicitly agree to allow international powers to force decisions on you.

    People don't give you money for nothing. That's not the way things work. Even the bailouts to American corporations (Which should never have been allowed in the first place) came with some pretty stringent rules.
    First, the Greeks did not give up total currency sovereignty, only some of it, a bad decision either way in my book, but the Euro was supposed to be a joint currency, ie: the Greeks were not without a voice in it.

    Second, they did not accept foreign aid to deal with their overspending problems.

    And I disagree entirely. There is a serious, big, bolded, double-yellow line between making a loan to a nation with certain conditions, and telling a nation to go suck eggs unless they give up total control over their government. The point of government is to regulate that which exists within it, the point of somebody else's government is not to regulate other people outside of it.

    Implicit agreements are implicit for a reason, you have to read into what's going on to find them. IMO: if there is no explicit agreement, then there is NO agreement.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

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