Redesign the Warrior class!

[PizzaSHARK]

SO WHEN YOU HIT A PALADIN YOU HIT HIM ALMOST AS HARD AS A PRIEST SO INSTEAD OF BEING WEAK ON A PALADIN TO BE BALANCED ON A PRIEST YOU ARE STRONG ON BOTH. HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND? But you only see 70% arp and jump to thinking its overpowered because you cant fathom them actually basing the damage of our abilities around already having 70% arp.

Because flat, unscaled armor penetration affects cloth more than it does plate due to how armor damage reduction is calculated. If you'd stop being such a wannabe e-thug internet tough guy, you would've noticed we mentioned that already.

Warriors don't need armor penetration so much as armor just needs to become a non-factor for PvP in general.

Yeah and Shield Wall back to 80%. Right now it cuts your damage output more then it protects you! Shield Wall should be balanced against the similar defenses of other classes, and in that case to have such a long CD to force to cut our damage by so much, it should guarantee survival. When Combat Readiness allows Rogues to lose 0% of their damage while gaining 50% damage reduction, for shield wall to cause us to lose 50% of our damage to gain 40% damage reduction is retarded.

CR shares a cooldown with Cloak and can be countered by your opponents having a pulse. You're trading your defense against spells to enable a defense against swords, you aren't getting both.

Shield Wall protects against everything and it's free. Arms and Fury are getting DBTS as a "no loss" defensive cooldown, and it won't prevent you from using Shield Wall.

Yeah and Revenge spam back, an effective tool to use while in D stance to put out damage to punish the tunneling of warriors.

God forbid Warriors are a viable target to attack in melee.

And What made warriors warriors were the mechanics. It was Mortal Strike, it was Enrage, it was Intercepting a heal then intervening back then charging the next and swapping to the healer. Changing warriors into something else is what has ruined the class in Cata, and them trying it again is foolish. The class worked once, and it did so very well.

Warriors will be fine, all they need are some fairly minor tweaks to bring them up to standard performance levels.

This assumes Blizzard pulls their thumb out and realizes that Warriors ARE going to need a little more tweaking before MoP goes live, anyway.

Well, with the discussion on "remove colossus smash and put in 70% passive arp", that leaves me with one question.

What ability will replace CS? it hits for a decent amount gives a nice "shattering" sound and essence, but what can replace this spell?

It's just gone, entirely.

[cFortyfive]

God forbid Warriors are a viable target to attack in melee.

I don't know if I even remember a time where Warriors were not among the most viable targets to tunnel. Or that there even was a time.

[Ninja Ataris]

CR shares a cooldown with Cloak and can be countered by your opponents having a pulse. You're trading your defense against spells to enable a defense against swords, you aren't getting both.

Shield Wall protects against everything and it's free. Arms and Fury are getting DBTS as a "no loss" defensive cooldown, and it won't prevent you from using Shield Wall.

Oh, the hilarity.

Losing 50% of your damage for 40% reduction on a 5 minute cooldown is free?

I agree on DBTS, but calling Shield Wall free is quite frankly retarded. You're pretty much losing all your offensive pressure, unlike Rogues, Ferals and DKs. You should be comparing it to Survival Instincts and Icebound Fortitude if anything. Not CR and Cloak. Jeez.

I'll fully agree on the armor discussion though. But I think making armor a non-factor is more work than just giving certain specs, like the ones you listed, passive arp.

[The Fiend]

One mechanic I always thought that Warriors could do with is something more about their resource than simply expending it.

Perhaps you gain 0.5% critical strike for each point of rage you have for like 3 seconds, so you build up rage, gain crit, then unload all your damage with criticals.

or Maybe increase your damage by the amount of rage you have?

[Ryngo Blackratchet]

I actually strongly support the op, here. Much of it is made of concepts I've been soapboxing for a while, now.

[Charge me Doctor]

Permanent damage amp. (via 70% ArP) is too strong to be permanent, from the balance side, it should be ~15%. And, as you see, 15% will insignificantly increase your damage output (more on cloth wearers, then on plate wearers due to armor scaling, less armor you have - more reduction per 1 point of armor you will get).

Warriors don't need a bandaid fix on armor scaling, they need base damage boost (more damage on weapons) and we have got this in MoP beta. If you can't execute your 6 second burst, you are bad warrior, and need to get more experience.

Problem with damage increase - is damage output while boosted by certain classes (HoF from paladin fo example, or new, badas wind totem). When you use all your CDs you become unstoppable killing machine, and that is where while begins.

Basicly, OP wants warriors to be a Prep+ShS rogue. To burn all CDs and kill anyone in 1v1.


The only reason to normalise damage from warrior - give them 100% ArP, but then, there will be NO way to mitigate damage from him, and, since there is no diffirense between paladin and priest in health, they will melt tanks in no second.
Rewamping whole mitigation system to make OPs idea live, is a bad idea.

[PizzaSHARK]

Permanent damage amp. (via 70% ArP) is too strong to be permanent, from the balance side, it should be ~15%. And, as you see, 15% will insignificantly increase your damage output (more on cloth wearers, then on plate wearers due to armor scaling, less armor you have - more reduction per 1 point of armor you will get).

Warriors don't need a bandaid fix on armor scaling, they need base damage boost (more damage on weapons) and we have got this in MoP beta. If you can't execute your 6 second burst, you are bad warrior, and need to get more experience.

Problem with damage increase - is damage output while boosted by certain classes (HoF from paladin fo example, or new, badas wind totem). When you use all your CDs you become unstoppable killing machine, and that is where while begins.

Basicly, OP wants warriors to be a Prep+ShS rogue. To burn all CDs and kill anyone in 1v1.


The only reason to normalise damage from warrior - give them 100% ArP, but then, there will be NO way to mitigate damage from him, and, since there is no diffirense between paladin and priest in health, they will melt tanks in no second.
Rewamping whole mitigation system to make OPs idea live, is a bad idea.

How is revamping the PvP system to effectively remove armor from the equation a bad thing? Plate classes are balanced (or were, maybe; warriors definitely still are) around being inherently harder to kill than lighter armor classes to justify them not having as many escape buttons or ways to prevent damage from landing.

Yet that doesn't apply anymore - armor doesn't make much of an impact since 4.0, and 3.0 removed the base HP discrepancy between plate and non-plate. If everyone's equal, why doesn't plate have the same tools as leather or cloth?

I want warriors to be brought into 2012 with the class design. The old 2004 class design is functional with the tweaks they make, but why can't we have something more engaging and more interesting, like how they're designing Monks, or how they added the new Holy Power system for Pallies in 4.0, and how it's being expanded on in 5.0?

[Charge me Doctor]

How is revamping the PvP system to effectively remove armor from the equation a bad thing? Plate classes are balanced (or were, maybe; warriors definitely still are) around being inherently harder to kill than lighter armor classes to justify them not having as many escape buttons or ways to prevent damage from landing.

Yet that doesn't apply anymore - armor doesn't make much of an impact since 4.0, and 3.0 removed the base HP discrepancy between plate and non-plate. If everyone's equal, why doesn't plate have the same tools as leather or cloth?

I want warriors to be brought into 2012 with the class design. The old 2004 class design is functional with the tweaks they make, but why can't we have something more engaging and more interesting, like how they're designing Monks, or how they added the new Holy Power system for Pallies in 4.0, and how it's being expanded on in 5.0?

Because then, there will be no differense between warrior, and say, rogue. Because they will have same health, same mitigation (zero), warriors will have 5% dodge and 10% parry, rogues will have 10% dodge and 5% parry.

The lighter armor type - the harder it to get you (i.e. dodge, avoidance, movement). But game is not made around armor types. We have melee (those, who chases) and ranged (those, who are chased). Melees have gap closers and damage mitigation (means to counter kite, and being able to withstand damage). Ranged, in other hand have disables and damage "preventers" (stuns, slows, roots, fears and heals/shields/immunity/haste/teleports).

Warriors were made in 2004, and since then, they had so many bandaids, they became abominations of WoW, they needs to be completely revamped, and they will be with new rage mecanic and new weapons (huge amount of damage), new talent system (you choose between high priority spells, not just crit modifiers/free interrupts) they will be OK

[PizzaSHARK]

Because then, there will be no differense between warrior, and say, rogue. Because they will have same health, same mitigation (zero), warriors will have 5% dodge and 10% parry, rogues will have 10% dodge and 5% parry.

That's exactly what the game is right now, only Rogues have 5% parry and 25% dodge and Warriors have 15% parry and 5% dodge. Warriors might have a very small armor advantage when things like CSmash and Find Weakness come into play... like 5% or so... but that doesn't make up for the 10% difference in avoidance, and a Frost DK doesn't care if you have 5,000 armor or 50,000 armor, most of his shit ignores your armor anyway.

I'd much rather have distinct classes, but there's no way you could have that in WoW and it be balanced, not when PvE is still the focus of the game. If you wanted to have different, unique classes, you'd have to have something like TF2, which is an entirely different design concept.

Homogenization is the easiest, most practical way of balancing the game. It's why plate don't get an inherent HP bonus over other armor types and why things like CSmash and Find Weakness exist.

[Zellviren]

Oh, the hilarity.

Losing 50% of your damage for 40% reduction on a 5 minute cooldown is free?

I agree on DBTS, but calling Shield Wall free is quite frankly retarded. You're pretty much losing all your offensive pressure, unlike Rogues, Ferals and DKs. You should be comparing it to Survival Instincts and Icebound Fortitude if anything. Not CR and Cloak. Jeez.

I'll fully agree on the armor discussion though. But I think making armor a non-factor is more work than just giving certain specs, like the ones you listed, passive arp.

As is usually the case when someone says another's point of view is "retarded", you've missed his point entirely.

He wasn't implying that you should compare Shield Wall to Icebound Fortitude or Survival Instincts, he was stating that warriors got a defensive cooldown in the form of Die by the Sword and it has no impact on our damage output. For DPS/PvP purposes, that's now our defensive cooldown to be compared to other classes; as a result, Shield Wall is an additional X-Factor if you absolutely need to stop damage raining in on you.

People should also consider things like Demoralizing Banner, Intimidating Shout and Disarm as DR cooldowns too, because that's exactly what they are. Yes, we're still looking at a weakness with regards to magical mitigation, but I don't find a class with a weakness all that terrible assuming it's not game-breaking (as was the case in Cataclysm).

[Nilinor]

die by the sword?! are you fucking kidding me?

That talent is HORRIBLE. OO parry!! so I can still be attacked from behind by twitch pvp, or shot by casters! Not to mention the fact that a vast majority of the time, ill be stunned when im brought below 20% -cant block/dodge/parry while stunned-.

To top it all off its auto-activated instead of being when I choose it, it doesnt even have a lower damage component to it.

That talent is not worth mentioning with a straight face.

[Onemanwolfpack]

Dear god no, kill this thread with fire!

I love my warrior and I hope Blizzard keeps their hands off of it.

[Highlight]

die by the sword?! are you fucking kidding me?

That talent is HORRIBLE. OO parry!! so I can still be attacked from behind by twitch pvp, or shot by casters! Not to mention the fact that a vast majority of the time, ill be stunned when im brought below 20% -cant block/dodge/parry while stunned-.

To top it all off its auto-activated instead of being when I choose it, it doesnt even have a lower damage component to it.

That talent is not worth mentioning with a straight face.

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/118038-die-by-the-sword

Just to say, it's been changed to a spec ability in Mists that Arms and Fury both learn. It gives the parry bonus, but also decreases damage taken by 20% for 8 seconds.

[Zellviren]

die by the sword?! are you fucking kidding me?

That talent is HORRIBLE. OO parry!! so I can still be attacked from behind by twitch pvp, or shot by casters! Not to mention the fact that a vast majority of the time, ill be stunned when im brought below 20% -cant block/dodge/parry while stunned-.

To top it all off its auto-activated instead of being when I choose it, it doesnt even have a lower damage component to it.

That talent is not worth mentioning with a straight face.

Nobody’s arguing that Die by the Sword is strong – it’s being touted as another part of our defence in line with the aforementioned banner, shout and Disarm (things that other classes don’t have). You can’t look at things in a vacuum and write them off, because that’s not how the game works or should work.

[Nilinor]

Well that makes it less horrible, cant tell from your link. is that a activate ability or a passive ability on a 2min cd?

if its passive, its still pretty bad, just not as bad.

[Zellviren]

Well that makes it less horrible, cant tell from your link. is that a activate ability or a passive ability on a 2min cd?

if its passive, its still pretty bad, just not as bad.

It's activated by the player.

[Nilinor]

I am definitely not as angry as I was in the above posts now if they made that change, it actually moved from bad to mediocre. We will have to wait and see what happens I guess before making any real conclusions, beta still has a long way to go. I should go on more often and try other things then tanking, but I have been so depressed with everything so far its making me not want to <_<

Hoping more changes for the better come, its just seeing so many nerfs in my life makes me less hopeful then I should be.

[Alenarien]

The main changes I would like to see is for Slam/Wild Strike to be to Heroic Strike, what Heroic Strike is to Strike; an upgrade, a rage dump and off GCD. The juggling act of those skills and Heroic Strike (especially in Arms when trying to get 2 annoying stacks of Thirst for Blood for Heroic Strike to be worthwhile) is quite ridiculous.

[PizzaSHARK]

I am definitely not as angry as I was in the above posts now if they made that change, it actually moved from bad to mediocre. We will have to wait and see what happens I guess before making any real conclusions, beta still has a long way to go. I should go on more often and try other things then tanking, but I have been so depressed with everything so far its making me not want to <_<

Hoping more changes for the better come, its just seeing so many nerfs in my life makes me less hopeful then I should be.

New DBTS is actually pretty fantastic. Minor damage reduction on a short cooldown combined with what amounts to melee+hunter immunity for the duration. It's like Deterrence on steroids.

---------- Post added 2012-07-04 at 06:28 AM ----------

The main changes I would like to see is for Slam/Wild Strike to be to Heroic Strike, what Heroic Strike is to Strike; an upgrade, a rage dump and off GCD. The juggling act of those skills and Heroic Strike (especially in Arms when trying to get 2 annoying stacks of Thirst for Blood for Heroic Strike to be worthwhile) is quite ridiculous.

Why not just remove Strike and Heroic Strike entirely, then? Why keep our spellbook and actionbars full of bloat?

[Saent]

You know how you make armor a non factor, by giving the few classes that it is still a factor for passive armor penetration.

And that crap about Shield Wall and CR. Trying to defend shield wall as being anything other then a joke makes you a joke. Because the facts make it a joke, 40% damage reduction, 50% damage penalty, 5min CD, 12s duration. If you played any Arena in Cata you know that Shield Wall does not do its job, that you can by killed through it, and it helps the other team by effectively making your offensive pressure 0.

CR is not just against swords, its everything, it costs nothing, and it will hit 50% damage reduction if the rogue is continued to be hit, and if the rogue isn't getting hit then THE ROGUE IS NOT GETTING HIT!!! AND IT DID ITS JOB BY KEEPING HIS ASS ALIVE; while at the same time letting the rogue be 100% offensive.

God forbid Warriors are a viable target to attack in melee.

God forbid Warriors aren't completely useless with a shield on.