Archangel Removed from Talent Tree

[Felade]

We have 3 dots, VT hits for nothing, DP has low uptime, and SW: P has direct damage. Time this at the end of DP duration, followed by recasting SW:P and you'll lose minimal dot damage in exchange for what should be some fairly huge burst.

The damage isn't as important as the procs and the GCDs. DPET is key. We'll have to see, though.

[Deleted]

Which glyph do you mean?

Glyph of Dark Archangel, gives you wings for 8 seconds after using devouring plague.

[Deleted]

The damage isn't as important as the procs and the GCDs. DPET is key. We'll have to see, though.

The only procs would be instant MB's from SW: P, and some lost regen from VT, and with SW: P being the first spell you cast after, you lose one tick at most. The GCD loss can be minimised by trying to time it so your dots are close to falling off when you cast insanity. Of course, all of this is predicated on insanity hitting hard, but I just can't see it being useful at all unless it's a proper nuke.

Edit: quoting from here "Shadow Word: Insanity is absolutely awful right now. Most importantly, the tooltip is wrong. It doesn't scale with the number of DoTs on the target, it scales with the number of times each DoT ticks; so if I cast SW:I right after casting VT, there will be no increase in damage. In my 483 pvp gear with the super OP wand, I was getting around 25k crits with no DoTs on the target and 1 DoT with no ticks. Each tick added 4k damage to the spell. The highest I was able to get was 90k, and to manage that, I had to toss up VT, SW:P, and DP in a way so that they would all expire at the same time, and then pop SW:I right before the last tick. Mind Blast, in the same gear, hits for 70k and I don't have to jump through all those hopes. I think it's bugged, because it's just terrible right now."

Apparently I was overly optimistic, and wrong about how the spell works. Still, it's a new spell, hopefully that can be changed.

[Kirse]

I only play disc, technically I do have a shadow spec but I never use it. I for one am thrilled with the change although i do hope they haven't screwed over shadow priests...

I'm disc only also. Shadow priests are very powerful in beta from what I hear, so taking away archangel may have been their way of nerfing Shadow. With the new glyph that gives dark archangel wings after DP, hopefully it won't be too upsetting for them.

I'm happy with the change too, but I'm apprehensive about the change having never played AA. I love healing as I do now, SoS healing without AA. Totally worth it for wings, however!

[Deleted]

I'm disc only also. Shadow priests are very powerful in beta from what I hear, so taking away archangel may have been their way of nerfing Shadow. With the new glyph that gives dark archangel wings after DP, hopefully it won't be too upsetting for them.

I'm happy with the change too, but I'm apprehensive about the change having never played AA. I love healing as I do now, SoS healing without AA. Totally worth it for wings, however!

I can understand if Shadow was considered "OP", obviously if that's the case then a nerf of some kind is needed. The fact that they took out a major DPS cooldown ability for a mana consuming, situational ability just boggles me a little, especially considering Shadow's only other cooldown is Shadowfiend which, unless I'm mistaken, is timed more for mana regen then DPS, or at least has relatively high cooldown, 3 mins, even if Mind Flay crits can reduce the time which I've been unable to verify in Beta, it still means Shadow has one functioning DPS cooldown, as opposed to others specs with two or three, which seems a bit excessive for a nerf. Again, I have an unnatural bias I know, but I really hope D:AA becomes a shadow spec ability.

As for healing, though, I definitely agree it's for the better, as for Holy/Disc levelling/PvP Wondering how Disc will take to it, perhaps meaning Archangel will be used more for the instant mana return and healing bonus, and Solace for those times when you need mana but not in a rush?... Still, sounds like Disc would be better off with one of the other talents, since with Solace they'd need to cast two spells, Smite and Solace, between healing phases and only Smite provides Evangelism and Atonement procs. Just seems like a lot of work to me, especially with raid/team healing involved, but I suppose that's the "skill" definer.

And, let's face it, let the Quantum of Solace jokes commence.

[Felade]

One of the big things that Shadow was missing in Wrath was a clickable DPS CD. It is a big deal to have a clickable CD - 4pc t13, or HM Spine, or in fact, most of DS (which had a lot of temporary damage buffs where you wanted to pop all your CDs for) would either not have been possible or have been a nightmare (read: would have been just like boomkins) for us.

There's more to removing a CD than just balance. You can always take the damage out of the rotation somewhere else, and leave the CD as is. Rets will tell you how much it sucks to be overly dependent on CD use, and they're right. But it sucks to not have a CD too, and we won't really have one (except perhaps PI) without AA.

[Kirse]

As for healing, though, I definitely agree it's for the better, as for Holy/Disc levelling/PvP Wondering how Disc will take to it, perhaps meaning Archangel will be used more for the instant mana return and healing bonus, and Solace for those times when you need mana but not in a rush?... Still, sounds like Disc would be better off with one of the other talents, since with Solace they'd need to cast two spells, Smite and Solace, between healing phases and only Smite provides Evangelism and Atonement procs. Just seems like a lot of work to me, especially with raid/team healing involved, but I suppose that's the "skill" definer.

And, let's face it, let the Quantum of Solace jokes commence.

Yeah, I actually found Solace to be a problem. Between shadowfiend, hymn of hope, PW: solace (not to mentioncds like inner focus, power infusion, and archangel), I found myself overwhelmed by the number of spells that I was juggling. With PW: Solace, I felt like it was at least one thing too many, and awkward to play. I'll definitely go for a different talent

[Kelesti]

The funny thing, as pointed out by Derevka through his Twitter feed, is that in a 25 man you're better off chain-casting Solace for 8 seconds rather than fuelling DPS for Hymn of Hope. This is rather sad.

[Volitar]

I feel like shadowpriest has just been shafted over and over again. I was on the fence about changing my main I am a lot more hesitant now.

[Deleted]

it seems for pve spriest Mindbender is the only real option Fdcl isn´t any good anymore due to the Mindspike nerv and insanity hits for less than a Mindblast under ideal conditions ( meaning all 3 dots runing out exactly at the same time wich is under ideal circumstances about every 17 seconds) and that isn´t even counting for the lost ticks of the 3 dots you remove with it ...

[Kirse]

it seems for pve spriest Mindbender is the only real option Fdcl isn´t any good anymore due to the Mindspike nerv and insanity hits for less than a Mindblast under ideal conditions ( meaning all 3 dots runing out exactly at the same time wich is under ideal circumstances about every 17 seconds) and that isn´t even counting for the lost ticks of the 3 dots you remove with it ...

I don't know if all disc feels this way, but I felt the same way about PW: solace, but for different reasons. With PW: Solace added to my toolkit, I felt that it tipped over into "too many" abilities. I became clumsy, hesitating over which dps or mana regen ability to chose. I'd have to wait for theorycrafters for the verdict on FDCL, but watching for procs or using an extra spell became a little overwhelming. At least with Mindbender, I'm simply using a spell that I'm used to having more often.

I really enjoy having an upgrade to an existing spell. I would love to see them offer an improved Hymn of Hope as an option, since it's pretty meh as disc. The ability to cast it more often + return more mana would be great. Making it no longer channeled or no longer return mana for other party members is a possibility, depending on how awesome they chose to make it

[Chimaera]

I don't know if all disc feels this way, but I felt the same way about PW: solace, but for different reasons. With PW: Solace added to my toolkit, I felt that it tipped over into "too many" abilities. I became clumsy, hesitating over which dps or mana regen ability to chose. I'd have to wait for theorycrafters for the verdict on FDCL, but watching for procs or using an extra spell became a little overwhelming. At least with Mindbender, I'm simply using a spell that I'm used to having more often.

I really enjoy having an upgrade to an existing spell. I would love to see them offer an improved Hymn of Hope as an option, since it's pretty meh as disc. The ability to cast it more often + return more mana would be great. Making it no longer channeled or no longer return mana for other party members is a possibility, depending on how awesome they chose to make it

If you feel like adding PW: Solace to your toolkit is just too much for you to handle then it may not be of use; however, it is definitely the best choice if used aggressively but not to the point of letting people die.

[Amnestay]

I think something really interesting could have been done with Archangel. Instead of it interact with Evangelism, it could have been a talented CD for all specs that flat-out increases healing/damage by X for 15 seconds on a 3m cooldown. It would have to be moved up to the 5th tier of talents, perhaps replacing Divine Insight or Twist of Faith (both very meh talents in my opinion).

[Kelesti]

I think something really interesting could have been done with Archangel. Instead of it interact with Evangelism, it could have been a talented CD for all specs that flat-out increases healing/damage by X for 15 seconds on a 3m cooldown. It would have to be moved up to the 5th tier of talents, perhaps replacing Divine Insight or Twist of Faith (both very meh talents in my opinion).

Twist of Fate is cool in that it applies to all damage/healing, not just to that target. We can carry it off a lowbie as a +output thing. And we already have a boring flat +X cooldown that does that. Power Infusion may be haste, but it's already in that tier. And choosing between 20% haste or X% output... not an interesting choice.

[Darkener]

Solace:
- You regain 2% mana per cast, 1.5s cast time.
- So you need to cast it once every minute to meet the gains from mindbender.
- Seems to be the clear winner vs Mindbender, but at the cost of GCDs of course.

You said Mindbender was 10% mana every 60 seconds (I can get 12% with Borrowed Time, but we will leave that out of the equation). So how do you get the same amount of mana regen from Solace once every minute that you get from Mindbender? That's 2% for Solace vs. 10% for Mindbender. No, you need to cast Solace 5 times a minute to equal one Mindbender. So Solace is only better than Mindbender IF you can cast it 6 or more times a minute. So Solace locks you out of healing for 8-9 seconds for the same mana regen as Mindbender which doesn't lock you out. Solace is clearly better if you can afford to cast it even more, say 12 seconds straight or more per minute. But in my testing I found it difficult to do that realistically. Which is why sometimes things mathematically lead you one way and realistically lead you another way. I really like the idea of free drinks in combat, but I think we need to give this thing a few more patches to see where it goes.

[Chimaera]

You said Mindbender was 10% mana every 60 seconds (I can get 12% with Borrowed Time, but we will leave that out of the equation). So how do you get the same amount of mana regen from Solace once every minute that you get from Mindbender? That's 2% for Solace vs. 10% for Mindbender. No, you need to cast Solace 5 times a minute to equal one Mindbender. So Solace is only better than Mindbender IF you can cast it 6 or more times a minute. So Solace locks you out of healing for 8-9 seconds for the same mana regen as Mindbender which doesn't lock you out. Solace is clearly better if you can afford to cast it even more, say 12 seconds straight or more per minute. But in my testing I found it difficult to do that realistically. Which is why sometimes things mathematically lead you one way and realistically lead you another way. I really like the idea of free drinks in combat, but I think we need to give this thing a few more patches to see where it goes.

You keep forgetting that you give up Shadowfiend to get Mindbender. That counts against Mindbender.

The idea with Solace is to not chain spam it but to weave it in progressively over time. Unless there is a dead lull for healing.

[Darkener]

You keep forgetting that you give up Shadowfiend to get Mindbender. That counts against Mindbender.

The idea with Solace is to not chain spam it but to weave it in progressively over time. Unless there is a dead lull for healing.

I wasn't factoring in other abilities. If you do then you should factor in that you can cast Hymn of Hope with Mind Bender whereas you can't with Solace, you would have to cancel the channel. Not saying Solace is worse, you seem to be forgetting that, it's an awesome ability to drink in combat. I just think our assessments of it at this point are premature as it was just introduced in beta and is likely tweaked already. If they leave it as-is, you will likely see a huge outcry from other healers.

[Kelesti]

I wasn't factoring in other abilities. If you do then you should factor in that you can cast Hymn of Hope with Mind Bender whereas you can't with Solace

You can't? Uhh... why not?
...if you want to play that game, you can cast Hymn of Hope with Shadowfiend.... which you still have, when you spec Solace (not with Mindbender).

Off of 8 swings, Shadowfiend restores 24% mana.
Off of 10 swings, Mindbender restores 10% mana.
Not to mention, with Hymn of Hope in a 25 man, you can't guarantee you're actually getting the mana. It still goes to Ret Paladins/Enhancement Shaman (who don't need it), Destruction Warlocks (who steal it and cap, effectively not needing it) and Arcane Mages (gtfo), so you can't even guarantee it lands on a healer even if you're feeling altruistic.

But we'll play nice and pretend we have full use of the Hymn of Hope buff during our napkin math session here.
We'll say we're at 0, running at fumes, out of a 300k mana pool.
Cast Mindbender, start channeling Hymn of Hope.
Assuming we miss the first swing (GCD limitations), we should have Hymn of Hope ticking for each additional hit. Let's do some math, shall we?
Mindbender hits for 3k mana on hit for the first one, and then afterwards, we'll have Hymn of Hope which lets the next 9 hits do 3450.

So that puts Mindbender's one use during Hymn of Hope up to 34 050. The next two uses over three minutes are still 30k each. Total of 94 050 mana.

Now let's do Hymn of Hope and Shadowfiend (seeing as, you know, when you spec Solace, you can still do this combo too).
Shadowfiend's first hit does 9k mana. Then all subsequent hits do 10350. For the 8 total hits, that comes out to 81 450 mana.

94 050 mana. Compared to 81 450 mana. Over the course of 3 minutes, how big of a difference is this? 12 600 mana. 4.2%. A grand total of one GCD of Solace during Hymn of Hope (post channel, with buff still active), and one GCD outside of Hymn of Hope. If you want, you could do two GCDs and pull off 13800 mana post-channel.

You're already spending two GCDs outside of Hymn of Hope doing 0 healing from casting Mindbender again. If you want to include Hymn of Hope, you're losing.

[derevka]

I wasn't factoring in other abilities. If you do then you should factor in that you can cast Hymn of Hope with Mind Bender whereas you can't with Solace, you would have to cancel the channel.

If you don't want to factor in other abilities, thats fine however you can't count the total that MB provides, just the increase it provides over shadowfiend, because that regeneration is there baseline regardless of your spec selection for the lvl45 tier. If priests didnt have SF, baseline, then I'd agree with you... but we do, and MB simply replaces it. Is mindbender potentially too weak... possibly. I mean we've seen him change how many times in beta? No fewer than 3, IIRC

As Kel pointed out, if you factor in HoH with Mindbender, you factor in HoH with Shadowfiend. Which, since SF restores more mana back per swing... (3% vs 1%) it'll actually outpace MB even more if you layer HOH's +mana).

That said, lets not turn this into a who's right and wrong. (keeping it civil) Lets just approach this as 'what is the fairest way of comparing the two' not into this pissing contest of who can calculate the returns the 'most correct'. The long and short of it, is that PW: Solace, provided you can find space to cast it (and personally, I think 1/min is a fairly low bar to set) it'll be potentially our strongest choice from a pure regeneration standpoint.

We also need to remember that with the new talent system we can change our talents for a measly 12g reagent when we are not in combat! Are we at a fight, were we wont be able to Solace? Then grab Mindbender or FDCL (provided you are in a fight that has Single Target Healing)... it really is an unbelievable way of adding flexibility to all the classes... but perhaps most importantly, allowing US to figure out what we can do to respond to the encounter at hand.

[Darkener]

I was trying to determine if Solace is balanced around downtime, because it is very op. As you point out, the buff that you get from taking Mindbender as a talent is simply not worth it. Except, in a test Heroic it wasn't so easy to stop healing and cast Solace.