Thread: GC and rogues..

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemp View Post
    I already know im not going to reroll, I love my rogue. But its undeniable that rogues feel amazing in pvp right now, even apart from all the pve gear. I feel like we have an answer for everything and I just hate seeing that get taken away, even if it is a little OP.
    I love how you guys are objective enough to insinuate you are overpowered and essentially not balanced. Just to highlight that specifically, you're not supposed to have an answer for everything, each class works on the principle of strengths and weaknesses but if one was a to have an answer to everything you have no weaknesses.

    Even so, you're now annoyed that your class is being fixed to be more balanced and brought in line with what all the other classes are trying to achieve. This is a classic case where bias hinders true objectivity and wow players should realise that fact and be comfortable that others may have a better idea of the big picture and that changes are generally made for long term good.

    Are they always correct, no... but blizzard doesn't shy away from it's mistakes and generally takes action to correct them.

  2. #22
    The more I reread what he wrote, the more I believe he actually posted that in anger.

    Look at the gist of it, here's my paraphrase:

    "If we decide rogues need both prep and shadowstep in pvp, we'll delete prep and maybe lower cooldowns."

    But, that is actually not what they would do. That's like saying "If we decide shaman are too weak in pvp, we'll delete one of their talents, and buff something unrelated."

    Ouch! Poor shaman! Or, in this case, rogues.



    But I definitely feel that he's not on board with what it is to be a rogue. Rogues will be offered several compensatory buffs after the expac launches and the first season shows us for what we truly are in arenas and RBGs. I'm just worried that monks are just considered "the real rogue" in the devs eyes- certainly they took our roll :P

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Brightnail View Post
    What is funnier is that the druid version of Vanish is on a 1miute CD, ours 3 minutes. Rets new prep ability is MUCH better than ours.

    Gotta love GC, seems that ever since he's come on board the game is taking a dive...
    Doesn't matter how many times they say it, but class abilities are never balanced in a one for one comparison setting. Your classes toolbox is measured against another classes toolbox. Do druids have a prep ability that essentially halves their cooldowns? The reason rogue cooldowns are longer is because you have more of them and the ability to reset them.

    Taking out niche abilities and comparing them out of context does little in the realm of constructive feedback.

  4. #24
    Doesn't matter how many times they say it, but class abilities are never balanced in a one for one comparison setting
    Doesn't hold up. Giving druids vanish is like giving rogues a bunch of animal forms. Vanish is a class defining ability, effing period.

    Giving druids vanish on a lower cooldown...

    Ok whatever. Remember when rogue were worst at stealth for like two patches, and dropped to about 4% rep? Remember that? Yea, they had to fix that. It's problem.

    Displacer beast (which is a BAD use of a name- a displacer beast is a cat-like creature with tendrils that always appears a few feet away from its true location, not a stupid teleport you can use every 60 seconds, the displacement isn't a damned teleport) doesn't give the cloak effect, so it will probably be blocked in effect by fairy fire and friends, in addition to popping straight out due to rupture. It's disheartening that they even have it, it's disappointing that it's yet another movement cooldown while we have to choose between "Testicles", "Heart and Circulatory System", and "Shadowstep with twice the cooldown of the second worst gap closer" or something.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-21 at 11:22 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    Do druids have a prep ability that essentially halves their cooldowns? The reason rogue cooldowns are longer is because you have more of them and the ability to reset them.
    I don't believe this is the case, by the way. Note that a rogue with prep has no gap closer, literally the only melee in such a situation. It also doesn't make any sense that a shadowstep or burst rogue would have long cooldowns- he doesn't have prep, after all. However, there's that odd "class power" concept that I suspect they balance around, so, you know, maybe.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Just a wild guess, could Blizz be considering Sprint as the innate "gap closer" for rogues...? It hardly compares to say, Death Grip... Or Charge... The equivalent of those moves is Step, which is now a talent. How convolutely are rogues exactly being balanced?

    I mean; The cooldowns of our class are balanced around a skill that we may or may not have; and the mobility of the class is balanced around a skill that we may or may not have... How does this exactly make any sense?

  6. #26
    Improved Sprint was a good gap closer for Combat, but now all three specs are the same. Combat still has Restless Blades Synergy allowing for at minimum 50 second Sprints, possibly 40 (30 is pushing it seeing Combat doesn't have the CP generation to make it happen). Combined with Kspree, and Shadow Step, Combat Rogues will have mobility heading into MoP.

    But that leaves Assassination and Sub in a precarious situation in terms of mobility. Still, Assassination on beta is showing it can deliver Envenom strikes far more quicker than live despite less energy and CP generation because of the changes to DP stacks.

    My theory is that most PVP Sub Rogues may not even bother using Rupture most of the time (unless there is a target that needs to be tunneled) and stack mastery to focus on Evsicerates. Just a wild guess IMO.

  7. #27
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    My theory is that most PVP Sub Rogues may not even bother using Rupture most of the time (unless there is a target that needs to be tunneled) and stack mastery to focus on Evsicerates. Just a wild guess IMO.
    Well, I'm not so sure. SV is goddamn huge, damage wise. It's not just 25% extra damage from a minor/major source of damage, it's 25% of all our damage. That's a ridiculously large sum of damage. For "all out mastery" to be viable, we'd need shit-loads of mastery to make up for the loss of 1/4 of our damage.

    I'm assuming we'll have to assume the role of "useless fly pestering everything with every chance it gets" until something need hard nuking, upon which we'll have to throw up the Rupture and do what we do.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Pikapika View Post
    Trust me, he's not the only incompetent one on the class design team.
    This FFS, why does everyone jump at GC's throat? Is it because he relays all of the design intents and not some other person?

  9. #29
    He's the boss. He's also got thick skin or he wouldn't even talk to us.

  10. #30
    Honestly if it reduces your capabilities in PvP that is a good thing. Rogues are unbelievably strong this season and if they're capable of doing the same thing in MoP shit will hit the fan for classes that can do absolutely nothing against them for 2 seasons expansions in a row.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideren View Post
    Honestly if it reduces your capabilities in PvP that is a good thing. Rogues are unbelievably strong this season and if they're capable of doing the same thing in MoP shit will hit the fan for classes that can do absolutely nothing against them for 2 seasons expansions in a row.
    Rogues are strong because of vial, prep and step, and 2min blind/vanish. All of those are going away, along with our ability to swap targets decently.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Pikapika View Post
    Rogues are strong because of vial, prep and step, and 2min blind/vanish. All of those are going away, along with our ability to swap targets decently.
    Rogues are also being gutted in PVE just to make a half hearted and doomed to fail stab at making arena balanced.

    Again.

    Theres a really simple way to not fuck rogues up in PVE, and that's simply to disable some abilities in the arena. Even worse is the fact that due to the arrival of monks, rogues are going to be the least played class.

    Again.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Worshaka View Post
    Even so, you're now annoyed that your class is being fixed to be more balanced and brought in line with what all the other classes are trying to achieve. This is a classic case where bias hinders true objectivity and wow players should realise that fact and be comfortable that others may have a better idea of the big picture and that changes are generally made for long term good.
    Actually, we are balanced exactly around that.

    We are some sort of a Jack of all Trades, having a counter for pretty much every class. This is our strenght.
    Our downside is that we require all our tools/cds up to be a real threat and that every class that is specialized in some aspect can do it better than us (be it damage, utility or whatsoever).

    While this could be an interesting thing, it actually makes rogues:
    - scaling very bad with gear, being UP at start and OP at the end in PvP
    - being not desiderable in a PvE enviroment since other classes can do better damage and/or bring better utilities.

    Instead of addressing these problems, the answer we got is "rogues are fine, we need to tweak numbers".

    Once again NUMBERS ARE THE LAST OF OUR PROBLEMS. We don't live for Recount.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  14. #34
    Once again NUMBERS ARE THE LAST OF OUR PROBLEMS. We don't live for Recount.
    So, Coldkil, the other managers and I were talking and, umm, we're not gonna need you to give the speeches any more. We just feel that, maybe, there's a disconnect. Is your family life ok? That dog of yours still alright? We're concerned about you, that's all. But we do have some new tasking for you in the back room with the reforgers...

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemp View Post
    Can someone please tell me another class, besides rogues of course, that are having to choose between 2 of their most important abilities in MoP?
    Surely you can see your own logical error here. You are not being made to choose between 2 of YOUR most important abilities. You have two really good abilities that YOU can choose from. There is a big difference.

    Look at it another way, what other class gets two very good abilities to choose from? You're lucky.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Avillya View Post
    Surely you can see your own logical error here. You are not being made to choose between 2 of YOUR most important abilities. You have two really good abilities that YOU can choose from. There is a big difference.

    Look at it another way, what other class gets two very good abilities to choose from? You're lucky.
    How many other classes are balanced around having two very good abilities but now have to choose between them?

  17. #37
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Avillya View Post
    Surely you can see your own logical error here. You are not being made to choose between 2 of YOUR most important abilities. You have two really good abilities that YOU can choose from. There is a big difference.

    Look at it another way, what other class gets two very good abilities to choose from? You're lucky.
    Wrong, they are indeed two of our most important abilities. They are key-stones rogues are balanced around having, both on Live AND the beta, for some strange obscure reason. Now, let's ask the same question again; How many classes are having current baseline skills thrown in their tree; Only allows them to pick one thereof; while being balanced around having both?

    Regarding my previous point; Devs are assuming both abilities are present and balancing rogues around that, despite the fact that only one of the abilities can be available for the rogue at any given time. This is shown in our defensive cooldowns.
    Taking Vanish, it has a longer cooldown due to the presence of Prep, as explained by GC in one of his previous posts. But what if Prep isn't taken? That would leave us in a state of being imbalanced due to our cooldowns being tuned according to a skill we don't posses. Crippling design move.
    Next up there's the issue of mobility. All melee classes are out-gunned when they're faced with ranged classes. This is addressed by giving them all the ability to instantly close that gap via some move of sorts. Death Grip is a baseline skill. So is Charge and Hand of Freedom. But rogues have nothing of that sort anymore. Our gap closer has now been throw into a talent tier with another ability we need to take if we want to be balanced. Crippling design move.

    ^No matter the choice we make, we're kinda dooming ourselves to being unbalanced in PVP. It essentially boils down to choosing whether to shoot yourself in the left foot or the right one. Have the gap closer everyone else has and you need to not be kitet endlessly or have the cooldowns to compete with everyone else's cooldowns.

    It's very convoluted and doesn't make very much sense.
    Last edited by mmoc0d3e61e7f2; 2012-06-22 at 09:31 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Incineration View Post

    It's very convoluted and doesn't make very much sense.
    It makes perfect sense if the goal is terrible in pvp and not fun in pve.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    It makes perfect sense if the goal is terrible in pvp and not fun in pve.
    Yes, because a class being terrible in PvP and not fun in PvE is a perfectly good design goal. Seriously? Try to be a little constructive.

    On topic, what if they remove prep, give us something else? Then our CD's can be shortened and not balanced around us having or not having prep.

  20. #40
    The Patient Lunareste's Avatar
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    Nothing any of you say changes the fact that Rogues are going to be balanced with Prep AND Step in mind, so we're going to be left in a hole either way since we can only choose one.

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