GW2: have I really completed the map? Leveling in GW2

[Kryos]

so the design flaw is, that the game fails to make that clear enough to the ex-WoW players (and those will be the majority of the players)

[Malthurius]

Perhaps, and I'm not so sure about WoW players being the majority of players in GW2, but it's really not clear to anyone who's played any MMO like WoW (Rift, Aion, SWTOR, ect).

Funily enough, I bet the people that have the easiest time are the ones that played Everquest and UO where there weren't enough quests to level and the game required you to go out and grind mobs to level, which is where I can see how looking for DEs can be misconstrued as a step backwards in design, but I personally don't see DEs (which are public quests basically that happen based on conditions) as anything like grinding out random mobs.

Perhaps a fix to this issue of being conditioned to search for linearity in the leveling system can be to simply make the scouts mention possible events outside of the general area of hearts.

[Fencers]

It's only a grind if you go in thinking that way.

If you think of it more in the terms of how Skyrim works, it doesn't seem like a grind anymore and more like exploration.

Utter bullshit.

I thought it was that DEs are a grind and that if the map says 100% and you didn't run into all the events you needed to level along the way the system had failed in it's design, which I disagree.

No.

[Malthurius]

Utter bullshit.


No.

I don't see how that's bullshit.

Yes, and what I am saying is that is regressive model. That is what you did in AC, EQ, UO, etc. Wandering about finding DEs to fill XP bars is grinding to all the same as wandering Permaforst killing trolls to fill XP bars.

I disagree. It's more along the lines of going back to do quests that you missed, since DEs are in essence public quests.

This is how it is: You clear the map, the goals of each zone map are meant to push players against DEs.

God forbid a player take initiative for themselves and explore, right?

When a player has cleared the map, fought through DEs and come short of his leveling goal your response to that player is in essence; "next time you think leveling is too slow, take into consideration, you probably haven't killed enough centaurs."

What in the f?

Once again, if you go into exploration not thinking that DEs are just random spawn bots that create mobs for you to kill until you level, it won't feel like a grind. DEs aren't all the same.

There is quite a big difference between "Go grind some more centaurs" and "Go do some more quests", imho.

[rhandric]

DEs should be seen as "what happens in the world, regardless of your presence" rather than "more mobs to kill, yay (fml)". As I said previously, if you think "exploring" means "running from heart to heart," you're not really exploring.

People are too wrapped up thinking that hearts=DEs=quest hubs=the world, when that's not all there is.

[nocturnus]

Fencers, saying "no" and "that's utter bullshit" isn't food for thought, nor are they well founded arguments.

You seem to make claims, without proper arguments: "DEs are a grind". It's not that we're missing your points, it's that, honestly, you aren't making any.

[Fencers]

I don't see how that's bullshit.

So if I go into Tera with the approach that I am controlling the monster population, it's less of a grind?

DEs are kill/collect/defend. Explain how defending the farm in Kessex Hills from bandits is an experience apart from defending the farm in Gendarran Fields? This is what DEs are. Nothing wrong with this at all.

How is it a player's fault for falling behind levels by following the directed system? What manner of fandom allows one to view the solution to this as; "Oh well just go explore!" as acceptable in GW2 but "Oh just go explore!" unacceptable in Everquest or Tera?

Somewhat disingenuous. And by "somewhat", I mean like completely.

God forbid a player take initiative for themselves and explore, right?

Then why have a directed system? Those are contradictory game systems in the OP.

There is quite a big difference between "Go grind some more centaurs" and "Go do some more quests", imho.

Disagree.

"Quests" are only a means of presentation.
"Dynamic Events" are only a means of presentation.

DEs being a better implementation than ! floaters above NPCs, to be sure. But we are doing the same basic functions, by the same basic means in Tera or Rift as in GW2. I see no reason to trump up GW2 on this aspect. I find such enthusiasm disgusting.

Fencers, saying "no" and "that's utter bullshit" isn't food for thought, nor are they well founded arguments.

I did present an argument to Maarius. I have no desire to restate things for people unwilling to think things through. Regurgitated developer quotes, fan videos and fantasy arguments I do name properly as bullshit.

[Malthurius]

Disagree.

"Quests" are only a means of presentation.
"Dynamic Events" are only a means of presentation.
.

This is where we greatly differ in our opinions then. I feel that how content is presented makes all the difference in how content feels to the player. Some may seek to see through this presentation to see it for what it fundamentally is: killing monsters, but I like to be immersed, and while immersed it's hard to feel grind honestly.

Eh... I'll agree to disagree at this point honestly...

EDIT: I don't disagree that hearts and exploring are contradictory system... I can't find flaw in that logic really. But must systems be followed to the letter as they are placed in game?

[rhandric]

For players who want/need direction, there are hearts and there are scouts who, iirc, direct the player's attention to nearby hearts as well as nearby DEs. If the player doesn't want to use the scouts but then says "I followed the hearts and was under-leveled!"" well, I have no sympathy. Personally I didn't use scouts, because I wanted to find things on my own. But that's because I....wait for it...explored!

And the difference between GW2, where DEs are spread across the entire zone and DEs are one method of gaining experience, and other games with quest hubs, is...wait, I said it in that sentence, figure it out.

[Maarius]

This is where we greatly differ in our opinions then. I feel that how content is presented makes all the difference in how content feels to the player. Some may seek to see through this presentation to see it for what it fundamentally is: killing monsters, but I like to be immersed, and while immersed it's hard to feel grind honestly.

Eh... I'll agree to disagree at this point honestly...

EDIT: I don't disagree that hearts and exploring are contradictory system... I can't find flaw in that logic really. But must systems be followed to the letter as they are placed in game?

I agree 100%. Dynamic Events aren't just masses of enemies waiting in an area to be killed. This would equal to grinding: go to an area and kill all the mobs there in order to gain xp for levelups, without any reference why you are killing the mobs, without any indication what it is good for.

Dynamic Events have those references: There are NPCs there who clearly need help. They run towards you and plead for help. You defend them, revive them, experience invading enemies and fend them of. After the event the NPCs thank you and sometimes turn into vendors who sell valuable items. Furthermore in some cases this is when new follow-up events spawn which lead you (via escort events) into new areas. If you lose the event (can you lose grinding?) the enemies take over the area and drive the npcs out.

So there IS a story behind all this, there is life, things happening all around. And you call this grind? Sorry, can't see where you are coming from. Whatever gave you that idea, I have no clue.


as a reminder, here a clip what you might miss after a dynamic event when you rush through:

[Fencers]

This is where we greatly differ in our opinions then. I feel that how content is presented makes all the difference in how content feels to the player.

I don't disagree on that. The DE system & heart system is brilliant. The map 0%-> 100% trick is a masterstroke. I feel GW2's leveling scheme is as important an evolutionary step as those ! markers were in their day.

Saying to players they are leveling too slow for lack of seeking out grind spots [DEs] is not awesome, however. Attemping the rationalize the design of DEs as anything but is well, dumb.

I don't disagree that hearts and exploring are contradictory system... I can't find flaw in that logic really. But must systems be followed to the letter as they are placed in game?

I think it is a case of merely figuring out the right DEs rates with each successive pass of the zones. It's cumulative data. Nothing can be done right now till players get in there and muck about in droves. That would make the systems less in opposition.

Both systems kinda work that way now, at least in academically. Once again, as I said XP gains / DE pathing are likely not finalized. Players of the current version of GW2 are in the right to say, "leveling is a bit slow" through no fault of their own. Which the OP doesn't recognize or address.

So there IS a story behind all this, there is life, things happening all around. And you call this grind? Sorry, can't see where you are coming from. Whatever gave you that idea, I have no clue.

Irrelevant. I don't care about your fun, immersion or any of that nonsense. And neither should you care about mine.

I only care about gameplay and design. All else is dressing one may or may not be partial toward- whatever.

[rhandric]

Except in DEs gameplay , design, and story go hand in hand

[Dosvidaniya]

could it be that this happened to you too?

Thanks for your report, gives a bit of insight about your experience. Some questions:
Did you explore points of interest? Did you gather crafting-nodes? Did you craft? Do you think it's bad design if you have other low level areas to level? Isn't this more content a good thing?

Someone in the Guru-Forums claimed that he gained 7 levels by exploring Divinity's Reach, not sure if this is correct, but maybe it's intended to do this before you venture to higher level areas. Think of it: the personal story leads you directly into the city at the start of the game.

It is very possible that it happened to me. I really didn't stare or even look at the xp bar very often until I was underleveled.

Explore? Yes. I was nearly done with one of the title tracks. The Points of Interest are required for the 100%; so I got those too. I gathered a ton (500+ nodes). I didn't craft at all. As for exploring Divinity's reach yielding that much? I doubt it. I did explore all the Charr city (cause it was awesome and really nostalgic). It does give a bit of xp, but it was only half a level or so.

Do I think it is bad design to necessitate going to other starter areas? Yes. It is not "more content" just because you force players to do it. If they made the pve-ers play 100 pvp matches, would it be "more content?" No. You're just forcing them to go through it. It does increase the amount of time to level. It also increases the amount of content the player will complete. It also tends to force players into doing activities that are less-desirable. In addition, it hurts replay-ability. ANet keeps telling us that they want to have a different experience when we re-level. When I'm required to play through the majority of content in order to level, I just don't see how that can be the case. It's not going to be that different when I start my Charr and repeat the same zones as my human had to do.

In addition, it actually hurts the "exploration" aspect that so many seem to be touting. Consider this, you enter a zone and are four levels lower than the mobs, where do you go? While you can explore, exploring while under-leveled is extremely dangerous. It actually restricts you. You begin to worry about wandering because you are afraid you'll run into a higher level portion of the zone. When I went to the Charr starter area, I really did explore. If I saw some ore node off in some random cave, I went for it. I jumped from level 1 hubs to level 4 hubs to level 8 hubs to level 13 hubs as I ran after ore or after DEs. I knew I wasn't going to be significantly underleveled while I was exploring the zone and just took my own path through it. In reality, restrictive leveling makes it harder to explore. You can't explore in any direction. You must go in the direction dictated by mob levels.

[nocturnus]

"Quests" are only a means of presentation.
"Dynamic Events" are only a means of presentation.

But that's the point hon. It isn't a grind because you perform a particular action, e.g. killing a bunch of mobs or collecting an x amount of oranges. A grind is performing the same action without any context to a point that it becomes teeth-grinding tedious. We can take the so-called 'Asian-grinder' concept as an example, to further understand what grinding actually means. Final Fantasy XI for example, was a typical grind-based game. The only means you had to gain experience was to kill mobs without context.

Now one can say: "That's bullshit, you do the same thing in wow!". Yes, you do, but that doesn't necessarily make it a grind. Wow provides a primitive form of context: the quests. Blizzard adorned the tedious task of repetitive actions with a story, which totally changed the experience of leveling and perception of performing basic actions. Performing those actions wasn't a grind anymore, because it was directly related to a continuous storyline.

Why is Tera's progression perceived as grinding then? It uses the exact same system wow does! It's simple really, the context provided by Blizzard, has grown old. People have gotten used to it and most of us have become 'quest-blind'. We don't read the quests anymore and just want to get it over with. Here reemerges the grind.

Do you understand what I'm driving at? DEs aren't a grind per definition, because you'll never do them frequently enough to be considered tedious. On top of that, you've got a choice, yes choice, not calculation. You have the possibility to gain XP via various other means, so if you've had your dose of DEs you needn't proceed that way.

The action of reading isn't per definition fun, or boring. It depends on the story, the context. The action of killing mobs, isn't per definition a grind. It depends on the provided context.

Do I think it is bad design to necessitate going to other starter areas? Yes. It is not "more content" just because you force players to do it.

This doesn't make any sense, whatsoever. In wow for instance, you can't proceed to a certain area until you've reached the appropriate level. They "force" you to complete more quests. In GW2 you can't proceed to a certain area until you've reached the appropriate level. The only difference is that GW2 doesn't hold your hand by telling you exactly what to do to gain XP. It provides a guide line that stimulates exploration above all else.

Many are used to the linear game-play of games like wow. They got lost in GW2 and herein lies its beauty.

[Dosvidaniya]

This doesn't make any sense, whatsoever. In wow for instance, you can't proceed to a certain area until you've reached the appropriate level. They "force" you to complete more quests. In GW2 you can't proceed to a certain area until you've reached the appropriate level. The only difference is that GW2 doesn't hold your hand by telling you exactly what to do to gain XP. It provides a guide line that stimulates exploration above all else.

Many are used to the linear game-play of games like wow. They got lost in GW2 and herein lies its beauty.

Did you even read the sentence you quoted? WoW didn't make you run two starter zones to enter the level 10 zone. When was the last time you finished the Orc starting area and the Tauren starting area? That's right, never. Your post doesn't make sense.

[nocturnus]

Did you even read the sentence you quoted? WoW didn't make you run two starter zones to enter the level 10 zone. When was the last time you finished the Orc starting area and the Tauren starting area? That's right, never. Your post doesn't make sense.

Relax. No need to get your panties in a twist.

The way you formulate your thoughts, make them particularly hard to understand. Let me simplify what I said before:

- In wow you enter a level 10 zone when you're level 10. You gain experience by doing quests. To enter level 10 you have to complete sufficient quests. This linear approach is an ease of comfort. Wow forces you to do an x amount of quests.
- In GW2 you enter a level 10 zone when you're level 10. You gain experience by exploring and stumbling upon events. If you don't explore, chance are you won't stumble on new events which leads to a stagnation in progress. This approach isn't linear and stimulates you to pick up your heals and see the world.

If you're trying to insinuate GW2 forces you to repeat the same zones various times in order to have a sufficiently high level to proceed, I have to disagree. On both my warrior as my elementalist I never stumbled upon this problem. Both ~level 30.

[Deleted]

Except in DEs gameplay , design, and story go hand in hand

Don't mind her, she's moody cause she misses the kitchen ;s.

In all seriousness though, Fencers has a very clear image of "true mmo" and gameplay designs that are related to the genre. Unfortunately, sometimes she forgets that most of it are just her opinions - not facts. Then she gets lost somewhere in between her "whatevercity" and "utter bullshit" minefield.

As for the topic at hand: I think everyone here has his own "image" of what grind does really mean. For me? Grind is not only repeating some actions (like killing same mobs over and over again), but also very often a forced activity. Many of the Asian MMOs don't even have alternatives to going out of the town and just killing spiders for 3 hours to fill few bars.

Everything can be brought down to "killing mobs" though, but things like quests, hearts or DEs are there to add a second objective, something more than "I need 200 more centaurs to reach next level". This adds depth as it allows for telling you a story and I must say, the combination of DEs and hearts creates one good leveling mechanism - it still needs more tuning, that's for sure though. For example I could get up to 5 levels per hour thanks to XP booster stacking which made following hearts a very inefficient way to level ;s.

Some random anecdote: while playing GW2, I've actually met more people who knew what was going on in the world. Somehow even despite total lack of quest text people know more about the story that's happening around them. I think, hearts and DEs are not necessarily the bleeding edge of revolution, but definitively VERY powerful tool to immerse players in the world - and I think everyone can agree that's a very important component in every successful game.

[Ynna]

- In GW2 you enter a level 10 zone when you're level 10. You gain experience by exploring and stumbling upon events. If you don't explore, chance are you won't stumble on new events which leads to a stagnation in progress. This approach isn't linear and stimulates you to pick up your heals and see the world.

If you're trying to insinuate GW2 forces you to repeat the same zones various times in order to have a sufficiently high level to proceed, I have to disagree. On both my warrior as my elementalist I never stumbled upon this problem. Both ~level 30.

Just because you didn't, doesn't mean it never happens.

I was quite a bit underleveled when I left the Charr starting zone. I did all the hearts and discovered all the points of interest (and did some WvWvW) and I was a couple of levels too low to start the next zone. Now, you could say, just do some more events, but then I'm just looking for something new to do (because you can't predict where or when an event is going to happen) and I didn't really like replaying events (with some exceptions).

[Dosvidaniya]

If you're trying to insinuate GW2 forces you to repeat the same zones various times in order to have a sufficiently high level to proceed, I have to disagree. On both my warrior as my elementalist I never stumbled upon this problem. Both ~level 30.

I'm stating outright that I had issues leveling unless I completed nearly 100% of the content I encountered. You disagree. I've posted what I've done. I've posted about possible bugs. You have done what the majority, with no leveling issue, does in these conversations. You assume the player attempted to run a linear path through the content and thereby missed most of it. You then explain that a player shouldn't run a linear path through the world. No effort was made to post your own data or gather data regarding the experience so that a resolution could be reached. While your intentions may be good, you are patching a roof that isn't leaking and I am weary of the nail guns as they perpetually patch the wrong roof.

[Maarius]

It is very possible that it happened to me. I really didn't stare or even look at the xp bar very often until I was underleveled.

So there might be no problem with leveling-speed at all but rather a bug which resets your level. Hm.

Explore? Yes. I was nearly done with one of the title tracks. The Points of Interest are required for the 100%; so I got those too. I gathered a ton (500+ nodes). I didn't craft at all. As for exploring Divinity's reach yielding that much? I doubt it. I did explore all the Charr city (cause it was awesome and really nostalgic). It does give a bit of xp, but it was only half a level or so.

I doubt it too, your version sounds much more realistic. It's a bit of xp nonetheless, especially the reward-xp for finding all the points in the city. 500+ nodes... well I can't see why you were still sub-level after that, the bug seems like a reasonable explanation for me.

I can only speak for myself: no problem at all with leveling. I had a bit of a downtime once, but then I went into town for crafting. By the time I had that new crafted armor it became night and I strolled around in the village near Divinity's Reach and found a nice event at the graveyard which only happens at nighttime.

Do I think it is bad design to necessitate going to other starter areas? Yes. It is not "more content" just because you force players to do it. If they made the pve-ers play 100 pvp matches, would it be "more content?" No.

How is this not more content? It's a totally new zone, still challenging for you because of downscaling (yes, you get scaled back to lv.4 as I'm sure you know) with new hearts, new content, new skill challenges (for this alone I definitely will go to all of the races zones) and points of interest. Completing a map gives you a reward-lootchest with transmutation stones too, so a nice to have.

You're just forcing them to go through it. It does increase the amount of time to level. It also increases the amount of content the player will complete. It also tends to force players into doing activities that are less-desirable.

It doesn't increase the time to level, the game is designed to take 90min/level. Do level-appropriate stuff and you come close to those 90 minutes. Yes, you will have to complete more content... since when is this a bad thing?? Oh, are you one of those power-levelers who want to get max.level asap? See it this way: you are 80 and haven't seen a lot of zones yet, so you will have to go back to those zones in order to get xp (for further skillpoints), gold (because you want to gain gold by doing new stuff) and karma (same as gold). Furthermore you want those skillchallenges which are everywhere. You'll go back anyway, why not going there earlier?

In addition, it hurts replay-ability. ANet keeps telling us that they want to have a different experience when we re-level. When I'm required to play through the majority of content in order to level, I just don't see how that can be the case. It's not going to be that different when I start my Charr and repeat the same zones as my human had to do.

This is why there are dynamic events. Like I posted in the OP Anet is constantly adding new ones to existing zones, so that you will experience the zone different than when you were there the first time. Sure, currently some of those events repeat often, but this won't stay so forever. So there might spawn different events in the same area than before.

It's already happening: I started 2 human professions. The first time I came to the first farm, there was this giant worm and no bandits anywhere. Those bandits raided the farm and set the hay on fire the second time I was there, with my other profession. Same thing happened at the dam and near the dam, the broodmother spawned when my warrior was passing by but not when I was there with my mesmer. It was a very different experience most of the time for me.