Supreme Court strikes down mandatory life without parole for minors

[buck008]

Juveniles can still be sentenced to life without parole, but that sentence has to be decided by the individual judge based on the circumstances, not by legislative decree (mandatory). Juveniles simply cannot be given the death penalty, which was decided in 2005. Nothing to see here.

I'm repeating this because it's important. You can't hand a child a MANDATORY life sentence, but a judge can rule that it is necessary. Even if it were not the case, just because a person is eligible for parole does not mean it will be granted. This really isn't that interesting.

[Wells]

That depends on what you interpret/believe to be rights. If a 16 year old can't vote, they can kill someone and be treated like they didn't know what was happening and get a do-over? That's a total cop-out stance.

Adult actions deserve adult consequences.

Who said anything about a "do-over"?

Please, show me where this is happening as a judicial standard and not because the person in question is a repeat offender or has some other circumstance leading to a tougher sentence.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...ty-hunter.html

African Americans in Illinois convicted of low-level, drug-possession charges face prison time at a far greater rate than whites convicted of the same crimes, a state panel disclosed Monday.

Disparity in federal cases
http://www.brennancenter.org/content...al_sentencing/
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208129.pdf

Eighty-five studies meeting our stated eligibility criteria were located. Analysis
of these data reveal that, after taking into account defendant criminal history and current
offense seriousness, African-Americans and Latinos were generally sentenced more
harshly than whites.

Racial disparity in sentencing is a thing.

[Tinykong]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...ty-hunter.html

Disparity in federal cases
http://www.brennancenter.org/content...al_sentencing/
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/208129.pdf

Racial disparity in sentencing is a thing.

So, just because more blacks receive sentences than whites for the same crimes, that proves racial disparity on the part of the court? Or, could it be, that whites have access to better lawyers, or perhaps there was a lack of evidence to convict, or the defendant didn't appear remorseful, the defendant was cocky and braggart towards the court, the defendant had previous convictions, or there were extenuating circumstances in each case. There are a lot of other possible reasons for that statistic, simply saying that more blacks than whites go to jail doesn't prove there is intentional racial disparity. Even the document you linked says that the difference is significantly small. Your accusations are describing a systematic, universally tougher sentencing procedure for people of color.

There is no way to scientifically compare two criminal cases, the number of variables that lead to the outcome are almost infinite.

[Wells]

Yes I'm sure in broad studies looking at a wide variety of cases the racial disparity came down to defendants not looking sorry.

The thing is, the studies listed accounted for pretty much everything you're bringing up, which you'd know if you actually read them.

I didn't say there was intentional racial disparity. Those are your words. I said there is a disparity. There is. I just showed you. Stop moving goal posts.

[Tinykong]

Yes I'm sure in broad studies looking at a wide variety of cases the racial disparity came down to defendants not looking sorry.

Way to pick the one point that makes your argument look more valid out of the list of infinite possibilities that could account for disparity.

The thing is, the studies listed accounted for pretty much everything you're bringing up, which you'd know if you actually read them.

They didn't cover the huge list of potential variables, they elected to include previous convictions and a few others (can't remember exactly what, but the list was less than 10.) What about the ability of the attorney's involved to negotiate a better plea? Public defenders are vastly different than a paid criminal defense lawyer. What about the potential local laws involved in their cases? Different crimes in different states cary different penalties.

You showed me one study by two law professors, hardly conclusive evidence. Their own study said that the difference is significantly small, something a scientist would say could be covered by the litany of variables they, as well as you, elected to ignore.

I didn't say there was intentional racial disparity. Those are your words. I said there is a disparity. There is. I just showed you. Stop moving goal posts.

But we're also a society fueled on petty revenge so we pretend they're adults if we want to hate them bad enough.

Bonus points if they're black.

Sounds pretty intentional to me. You love to say something provocative and then claim you never said it. You should be a politician, would suit you well.

[Wells]

They didn't cover the huge list of potential variables, they elected to include previous convictions and a few others (can't remember exactly what, but the list was less than 10.) What about the ability of the attorney's involved to negotiate a better plea? Public defenders are vastly different than a paid criminal defense lawyer. What about the potential local laws involved in their cases? Different crimes in different states cary different penalties.

Again, as you would know if you actually read the studies. They accounted for variables like this. Whites with public defenders get weaker sentences for the same crimes as blacks etc etc. Not to mention the quality of your lawyer should have zero relevance on the harshness of your punishment after conviction.

Stop sticking your head in the sand.

Sounds pretty intentional to me. You love to say something provocative and then claim you never said it. You should be a politician, would suit you well.

There are different types of racism. Systemic racism vs active racism vs passive racism for instance. Blacks are also more likely to be tried as adults as well.

[Tinykong]

There are different types of racism. Systemic racism vs active racism vs passive racism for instance. Blacks are also more likely to be tried as adults as well.

Yet another Wells post where he quickly changes direction and ignores his previous comment that he claimed he didn't say. I've had enough, ignored.

[Wells]

I haven't ignored anything. I was addressing your misconception on how racism can differ from intentional discrimination.

Or how my statement regarding blacks and being tried as adults was factually correct.

I don't think you're operating in good faith here.

[Spectral]

The reason for variability of sentence given the same crimes is irrelevant to determining whether it's a just system. A system can be racist without it being deliberately so; it's the outcome that's relevant, not whether people can say, "hey, we didn't try to fuck black people over, it just worked that way".

edit - I now see that Wells has already said almost exactly the same thing, my mistake. This really should be repeated though.

[Wells]

I do enjoy it though that he asked for clarifications and justifications to what I said and then ignored me for doing it.

[Gringgotts]

Main thing to realize is the MANDATORY part of it. There can still be life sentences without parole, but there is wiggle room for exceptional cases.

[Spectral]

Well, that surely is the easiest way to think racism isn't really a relevant thing anymore - just pretend the evidence doesn't exist at all, and say "I'm ignoring you" to anyone that tries to present that evidence. By doing so, people get to remain in a position of privilege without ever having to confront that reality for even a moment.

[Wells]

Generally I'm used to it, but when it comes to our penal system its so blatant and obvious its painful.

[Spectral]

Right, I get how people can comfortably (and even honestly) claim that African-Americans aren't hurt by racism in job places. I disagree, but it's at least an argument that takes a bit to explain well and really flesh out. The racism in our justice system is so unbelievably transparent that you have to explicitly desire to not see it.

[buck008]

Right, I get how people can comfortably (and even honestly) claim that African-Americans aren't hurt by racism in job places. I disagree, but it's at least an argument that takes a bit to explain well and really flesh out. The racism in our justice system is so unbelievably transparent that you have to explicitly desire to not see it.

Actually even that's not true. I think it was 20/20 about 10 years ago that did an undercover expose on this subject. They gave two people fictional backgrounds that were identical in every way, but one was black and the other was white. They had them interview for jobs, shop for cars, and other things of that nature. The two I listed particularly stand out in my memory. The interviewer spoke with the white man about advancement and offered him a higher salary. The car dealer offered the white man a lower price, and never even offered to take the black man on a test drive. They also did the same experiment with a man and a woman. I think you know how that one turned out.