Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Argg0 View Post
    Rocket jump is just too good to ignore, probably the best PvE Racial around. It allows you to reach enemies/places faster (ie Omnitron puddle, Majordomo's Fire Orbs, Gunship's Void Zones, Yor'shaj adds, etc).

    And they also have a 1% passive haste.

    Sure, Troll may win against Patchwerk, but on any movimentation fight (aka 90% of the content), Rocket Jump wins.
    Or you just take Engineering at get Nitro Boosts. Sure, %chance to fail and longer CD, but Engineering Gloves and Troll racial = win.
    You can get substitutes for the movement racials, can't get a substitute for Berserking.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    I can easily see the difference being a consistent ~1K
    I still don't think its that high, but then again we are talking multiple thousands of dps. I just don't believe that racials will be the difference between killing a boss and not killing one or getting a rank 1 parse compared to a rank 2.

    Stream: twitch.tv/DryeLuLZ
    Twitter: @Dryelulz

  3. #23
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    3,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    If you think that Humans merely take the second trinket slot just for the PvP on-use trinket you're also wrong. In general terms casters are taking CotC or HC CotC for the increased AoE pressure it puts out and, even after the nerfs, Rogues are taking VoS for the increased burst.
    Oh, and btw, the strength of Shadowplay isn't in their CC. After all, a LOT of their CC actually shares DR. The strength of Shadowplay is that they can put out so much pressure through 'lock/SPriest multidotting that when they hard switch to a target w/ an untrinket-able Death Coil and priest has wings up it's a kill.

    Anyway, OT:
    Healthpools don't matter so much (from a PvE PoV) as what other spells are hitting for. I mean, in Cataclysm, depending on the ICD and whether or not the racial can crit, 14K free damage every so often is welcomed. But, in MoP? If things are hitting ~2x harder than they are now, it'll be a DPS increase but it won't be all that special. Guess we'll have to wait and see, really.
    Nobody is *gaining* cunning of the cruel / vial of shadows / bone-link by going human. I did a huge post on the pvp forums like 2 days ago dispelling this myth, but your options are essentially this:

    Choose Two of the Lines Below:
    1. Cunning of the Cruel / Vial of Shadows / Bone-Link Fetish
    2. PvP CC Break Trinket
    3. PvP On-Use Damage Buff Trinket (20s duration, 2m Cooldown)
    4. PvP Random Proc Damage Buff Trinket

    Pretty much everyone who has access to heroic 1, takes 1 - however my human warlock has heroic cunning, but uses 3 and 4 instead. Humans never take 2, which means they always either have 1+3 or 3+4. My night elf spriest uses 1+2. If I main changed my night elf to human, I would be able to use 1+3. Gaining the 20s spellpower buff every 2 minutes for being human - but even that benefit doesn't exist in a vacuum - it comes at the cost of Shadowmeld and 2% dodge.

    Alternately, if we go up against teams who consistently try to maul me, I swap to 2+3 sometimes (I bought it for contingency) for the additional 484 resilience and on-use buff, at the cost of 517 Int and Heroic Cunning's proc. If I race changed my priest to human (from night elf), and this were the case - I would then need to use 3+4 for the extra resilience. I would gain a very difficult to predict and weak random proc effect (Trinket 4) since I wouldn't need Trinket 2 - that's not a good trade for Shadowmeld + 2% dodge.

    If I were Undead in either of the above cases, I would use either Trinkets 1 + 2, or Trinkets 2 + 3 (same as Night Elf) - "But wait! There's more!" In either case you get an additional Trinket 2 effect against 70%+ of the teams you face at high rating, which are also the most CC intensive teams (RMP, RLS, Shadowplay - compared to the other 30% which are largely melee cleaves).

    So which number is higher? 2, or 1? Undead have two trinkets when they need them, humans have 1 trinket and either of the proc/on-use effects of the pvp trinkets - but NOT the added resilience from it (because everyone else is wearing the pvp CC break trinket and it cancels out).

    EMfHS is not bad - spellpower on use every 2 minutes is a very powerful racial (if they need the extra resilience however, their racial becomes the random proc effect which is significantly weaker), but WotF is significantly stronger on paper - and statistically - looking at which races excel the farthest up the pvp ranks - undead are the clear winners.

    Here think of it this way:

    If you are a triple undead RMP, and you get queued against a triple human RLS - congratulations you win!
    If you are a double undead RLS, and you get queued against a triple human RLS - congratulations you win!
    If you are a triple undead RMP, and you get queued against a Shadowplay - congratulations you win!
    If you are a triple or double undead team, and you get queued against an RMP - congratulations, you probably win! (works on fear and mind control remember)

    There is never an instance, which at the start of the match - you can look at a comp and go "we have 2-3 humans, therefore we auto-win against this team" - where as Undead, at high rating when the above are the only comps that most teams fret about fighting - you can look at the team composition and races and decide the outcome of the match before the opener.

    Will of the Forsaken gives you an enormous advantage against the toughest and most common comps in the game at high rating. EMfHS (or rather, the additional trinket effect you gain in place of the PvP CC trinket) might help your burst - but then again so will a good crit. Since you will coordinate your trinket effect to your other burst abilities, it also makes you predictable - good teams save peels or defensive cooldowns for your burst cooldowns - the additional trinket effect you choose by having EMfHS is also the most likely effect to get wasted in a CC or punching a dispersion: you can never waste WotF (because its reactive).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-06-28 at 11:24 PM.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  4. #24
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    I still don't think its that high, but then again we are talking multiple thousands of dps. I just don't believe that racials will be the difference between killing a boss and not killing one or getting a rank 1 parse compared to a rank 2.

    They *can* make the difference in both, if everyone in the raid is progression minded. Take Blood Legion for example, if they weren't all the best PvE racials for their class and role, could they have got that Ultraxion kill, where they went past the enrage but just managed to kill the boss? What if all the casters had rolled Undead/Tauren? What if all the melee (that could be) Orc, weren't Orc?

    Sure, I agree this is a very rare example, but to these guilds racials do actually matter, a lot, they can and do make a significant difference if everyone in the raid is forced to roll the best race for their role.

    Getting rank 1 over rank 2, this expansion at least, is more down to DW:TR procs//optional buffs (PI, etc), but correct use of Berserking again will only amplify this and give you a better chance. It's just about how you use the racial and whether you use it to the fullest.

    @SkillOverKill,

    Fair enough, you've made your point. But, if I'm right (and I could easily be wrong, I don't play undead) but doesn't WotF lockout trinkets for 30s once used? Likewise if a trinket is used, you can't use WotF for 30s? At the highest level, even 30s without anything to break some hard cc can mean death. Idk. WotF is strong, sure, but I think that EMFH opens up more options which is just as strong, if not stronger. The damage/healing racial in MoP will make Undead stronger though, for sure.

  5. #25
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    3,832
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    @SkillOverKill,

    Fair enough, you've made your point. But, if I'm right (and I could easily be wrong, I don't play undead) but doesn't WotF lockout trinkets for 30s once used? Likewise if a trinket is used, you can't use WotF for 30s? At the highest level, even 30s without anything to break some hard cc can mean death. Idk. WotF is strong, sure, but I think that EMFH opens up more options which is just as strong, if not stronger. The damage/healing racial in MoP will make Undead stronger though, for sure.
    30 seconds without anything to break some hard CC can mean death - but you aren't thinking that through properly. If you ARE undead, you get out of that CC - if you are any race except undead - you sit in that CC and someone probably dies. One fear or mind control or sleep every 2 minutes that would cost you the game - instead does not. Where every other race only gets to get out of that situation once, undead get to do it twice as often - just not back to back.

    The WotF/Trinket lockout time is - in practice - almost irrelevant - because when you trinket to save someone - presumably they are saved by your action - or you did it wrong in which case you should not have used trinket/cooldowns in the fashion you did (either the threat is removed, or you did something wrong). Now imagine that within the next 30 seconds the enemy team manages to put you back in that exact same spot - if you cannot trinket right now - your teammate will die. Your thought here was "oh no! the WotF lockout timer has killed my teammate!" - but in fact, any other race would have needed to use their PvP trinket on the first threat - and would sit in the full CC while their teammate died right now - the same as the undead. But if it happens 31 seconds after the first threat? The undead saves the day again and prevents a death - while No Other Race could do anything remotely similar.

    Looked at in isolation, this seems like a strong racial benefit - but in practice it is also rarely a single individual on the team who is undead. At the high end double and triple undead teams are overwhelming (all RMPs and RLSs). Their racial gives their team 24 seconds of additional GCDs they would otherwise not have just from each trinketing an 8 second fear or mind control, but in addition - because of the way DRs work - subsequent fears and mind controls are only 5 seconds. So they also start effectively halfway through the DR chain at the start of every match (and the more important half as well, since the first half costs 1 cast while the second costs 2 casts of Fear/MC to maintain 8 seconds of CC).

    Alternately, fighting a comp like triple undead RMP (the top three comps in the world right now) - all three members have the tools to prevent a kill on any of their teammates at any time. This means that the top example where-in an undead healer can prevent a kill twice within 31 seconds, every 2 minutes just with pvp trinkets / WotF - while every other healer can only do it once every 2 minutes with the pvp trinket. Against a comp like triple undead RMP - you are dealing with 6 opportunities per 2 minutes for someone on the enemy team to break the CC you put them in and stop your kill (the same is mostly true for double RLS as well).
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    They *can* make the difference in both, if everyone in the raid is progression minded. Take Blood Legion for example, if they weren't all the best PvE racials for their class and role, could they have got that Ultraxion kill, where they went past the enrage but just managed to kill the boss? What if all the casters had rolled Undead/Tauren? What if all the melee (that could be) Orc, weren't Orc?

    Sure, I agree this is a very rare example, but to these guilds racials do actually matter, a lot, they can and do make a significant difference if everyone in the raid is forced to roll the best race for their role.
    The same example could be said for getting good rng on crits or procs. Having two players of equal skill and equal gear but one is troll and one is tauren. Now this is on a stand still fight, where both are dpsing. Let's say that the Tauren gets better proc timing and a better crit percent. They both do their rotation flawlessly but the Tauren comes out ahead on dps because of the better rng.

    Now, I'm not trying to argue that dps racials suck. They own and I personally love them and think they're a great addition to classes/race. But the small amount of dps that you gain from them is easily negated from other variables.

    Stream: twitch.tv/DryeLuLZ
    Twitter: @Dryelulz

  7. #27
    I am Murloc! muto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Inside a Bubble
    Posts
    5,698
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Or you just take Engineering at get Nitro Boosts. Sure, %chance to fail and longer CD, but Engineering Gloves and Troll racial = win.
    You can get substitutes for the movement racials, can't get a substitute for Berserking.
    This, did this with my Warlock, and Eng Gloves + Berserking + Metamorphosis + Demon Soul + any on use trinkets + Volcanic Potion = winner winner chicken dinner.


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by altoid View Post
    just wanted how the spriest community feel about the upcoming racial that is given to undead

    Touch of the Grave Racial Passive
    Your attacks and damaging spells have a chance to drain the target, dealing 12654 to 14706 Shadow damage and healing you for the same amount.

    im aware health pools in MoP will be double what they are now.
    will undead be another option to roll as shadow comparing to the %1 haste from goblins or berserk from trolls?
    thanks in advance
    Think of it this way: that is a single target CoC proc which (over)heals you for same amount.

    How often does it proc though?

    And you are talking about PvE I assume?

    What about PvP? All-round? Off spec? Compared to goblin the worgen racial also give mobility. With reforging the 1% crit versus haste is relevant for caps but beyond that not much.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    They *can* make the difference in both, if everyone in the raid is progression minded. Take Blood Legion for example, if they weren't all the best PvE racials for their class and role, could they have got that Ultraxion kill, where they went past the enrage but just managed to kill the boss? What if all the casters had rolled Undead/Tauren? What if all the melee (that could be) Orc, weren't Orc?
    Problem is, you dont really know if troll racial is any worthwhile dps increase over goblin even when used perfectly. Only thing we can be sure is that troll racial gives bit more burst every 3 min so if fight needs burst damage in specific spots, then it can be better. But for example Ultrax, goblin racial could well be outright better thanks to its consistency. You can thing troll racial is better because it can be used with trinket procs and potions and multiplies from their effect, but just same static haste from goblin racial is there every time something procs in your gear, it gives less gain but it gives it from every effect.

    Small question from Ultrax fight: when using Berserking, does cooldown start from when ability starts or or when ability ends? Can you get two or three uses in Ultrax before enrage?

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    In a tree
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    The same example could be said for getting good rng on crits or procs. Having two players of equal skill and equal gear but one is troll and one is tauren. Now this is on a stand still fight, where both are dpsing. Let's say that the Tauren gets better proc timing and a better crit percent. They both do their rotation flawlessly but the Tauren comes out ahead on dps because of the better rng.

    Now, I'm not trying to argue that dps racials suck. They own and I personally love them and think they're a great addition to classes/race. But the small amount of dps that you gain from them is easily negated from other variables.
    Point taken, and I do see where you're coming from. However, there's also the flipside that if you get those lucky crits etc it simply amplifies your DPS even more, so ^^.

    Quote Originally Posted by sahtila View Post
    Problem is, you dont really know if troll racial is any worthwhile dps increase over goblin even when used perfectly. Only thing we can be sure is that troll racial gives bit more burst every 3 min so if fight needs burst damage in specific spots, then it can be better. But for example Ultrax, goblin racial could well be outright better thanks to its consistency. You can thing troll racial is better because it can be used with trinket procs and potions and multiplies from their effect, but just same static haste from goblin racial is there every time something procs in your gear, it gives less gain but it gives it from every effect.

    Small question from Ultrax fight: when using Berserking, does cooldown start from when ability starts or or when ability ends? Can you get two or three uses in Ultrax before enrage?
    Assuming (as Drye has pointed out) similar crit% throughout a fight, if someone uses Berserking properly, it will outperform Goblin's racial. 1% Haste doesn't affect our DoTs that much (as Devouring Plague scales off rating not %) and so all you gain (realistically) is a 1% casting speed gain. Sure, it's a dps increase, but if you time Berserking properly in conjunction with a Spell Proc it boosts your Vampiric Touch and SW: P that much more, making it a DPS gain. That's why it's stronger, because it actually boosts our DoTs while it's active.

    CD starts from when you use the ability, so you'd get to use it twice during an Ultraxion encounter.

  11. #31
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,186
    the troll racial is powerful because you can stack it with other cds, and it can help with generating max dps during a cd or burn phase.

    In and of itself its not op, however used correctly its benefit for some specs can be somewhat disproportionate. But I dont care, even if there were no racials then Troll are still > everyone else!

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer shise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    3,564
    Damn, some years ago priests were not that played and they were mostly healers.

    Now everyone seems to play a priest and they don't even heal

  13. #33
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    3,832
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    Damn, some years ago priests were not that played and they were mostly healers.

    Now everyone seems to play a priest and they don't even heal
    No, priests (and shadow) are just the most class-loyal and vocal community, so it seems that way. Also if your on the beta, it appears that there are tons of spriests because all spriests spec shadow when outside of dungeons (because its our only dps spec) - and shadowform makes us so unique looking.
    Youtube ~ Yvaelle ~ Twitter

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •