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  1. #1
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    Warrior PvP in MoP

    The shaman section has a thread like this (though it's about PvE too), we should have one too.

    Contrary to all the bitching we've been doing in the past month, I don't think Warriors are too far off the mark as far as mechanics go. Enrage uptime is going to need a lot of monitoring and tweaking from season to season because Blizzard are obsessed with making Warriors a rollercoaster, but otherwise I think our needs are fairly minor:


    General Warrior needs

    - Warbringer's stun should be on a separate DR timer from most other controlled stuns. This may require it lose the extra stun component and just become a simple knockdown; I'd also add a 2 second root effect to it (only DRs with itself) to make Charge actually useful against vehicles. Right now, no one is going to pick Warbringer over either other option because of the DR problem.

    - Victory Rush should be enabled when any target you have directly damaged (i.e. not a Deep Wounds tick) within the past 6 seconds dies. If Victory Rush is going to be our innate heal, I'd like for Protection to be able to use it and for us to not be completely screwed by our own teammates if we don't get the actual killing blow.

    - Hamstring range should be extended to 10 yd and, like Monk's new Disable ability, it should automatically reapply itself to the nearest target that you have Hamstring on periodically. I don't think we actually need Piercing Howl so much as we need a reliable snare that extends past melee range. I think Piercing Howl with a 15 yd range is strong enough that we should have to make a choice about it. Hamstring should cost 3 rage (it shouldn't be free but it should be almost free.)

    - Glyph of Long Charge should become just inherent. I can't think of any Warrior, in PvP or in PvE, that doesn't take this glyph except Fury on live since they can't really use Charge.

    - Like the typo says, Deadly Calm needs to be renamed Deadly Clam (see: glyph of incite.)

    - PvP Gloves equip bonus changed to: Reduces the duration of Disarm effects on you by 60%.

    - PvP four-piece set bonus changed to: Your Heroic Leap frees you of all movement impairing effects.

    - Shield Wall no longer requires a shield, but reduces your damage dealt by 40% (50%? 60%?) while active if you are not wearing a shield.

    - Spell Reflection no longer requires a shield, but reduces your damage dealt by 40% (50%? 60%?) while active if you are not wearing a shield.


    The idea is this: we already have most of the tools we need, they just need to be tweaked. Warbringer is unattractive because it DRs with all of our other stun choices and most other stuns. Hamstring is fine, but it's not doing the job it needs to do (allowing us to stay on a target for at least a few seconds after charging to them) and the Disable concept is just an amazing idea for melee-range snares like Hamstring. Everyone takes Long Charge, it shouldn't even be a glyph. Our PvP set bonuses are, honestly, outdated; changing them to what I mentioned gives us an innate method of freeing ourselves from roots/snares on a somewhat lengthy cooldown (45 sec, 30 if glyphed) and keeps our free weapon chain.

    Shield Wall and Spell Reflection ideas are just an idea I had to make us less dependent on using macros just to even be able to activate these skills as Arms or Fury. Know how some Rogue skills do more damage if you use a dagger, but can be used with any weapon? Like that.



    Protection-specific needs


    - Concussion Blow needs to be returned. If Protection Paladins are keeping Hammer of Justice and can buy talents to gain more CC, I don't really see a reason for Warriors to be losing their long-duration single-target stun. Cooldown can be increased to 45 sec if necessary (shorter than HoJ, but Concussion Blow can be avoided and requires melee range while HoJ ignores avoidance and extends to just past melee range, CB is also 1 second shorter than HoJ.)

    - Demoralizing Shout should affect all enemies within a 100 yard radius. It's supposed to be our answer to Barkskin, but applying it a ranged class with only a 10 yd range will be virtually impossible. Hell, 10 yards probably isn't even wide enough to apply it to approaching adds in PvE! If we're going to be given a short-cooldown/small-effect damage reduction cooldown, it should actually function like one! Intimidating Shout doesn't count because you can't attack a target affected by it without breaking it (unlike stuns.)

    - Possibly personal opinion, but I'd like to be encouraged to use Heroic Strike instead of defensive abilities sometime. I want tanking in both PvP and PvE to be about balancing your resource usage between more damage and more defense. A good tank should be able to survive a long time and ease the strain on their healers; a great tank should be able to do that while also producing good pressure (for a tank, anyway.)


    I'll update Prot when I have time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
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  2. #2
    im no beta tester but the spell descriptions of shield wall and spell reflection now longer says "requires shields" on this page : http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/game/mis...cification#Za!

  3. #3
    Still mechaniscs wich are outdated, I don't see the class being that good in mist, it looks good but it isn't.

  4. #4
    - Shield Wall no longer requires a shield, but reduces your damage dealt by 40% (50%? 60%?) while active if you are not wearing a shield.

    - Spell Reflection no longer requires a shield, but reduces your damage dealt by 40% (50%? 60%?) while active if you are not wearing a shield.
    The only real downside to using the shield is the damage reduction it causes, shield wall in fact causes you to lose more damage output then the damage protection you gain. So its pretty silly to remove the shield restriction then nerf the damage output.

    And this is the problem with warriors, because for some stupid reason when people think up warrior changes they always have to have a downside; even though other classes with similar abilities dont.

    Like Rogues with combat readiness, in practice 50% damage reduction for 20s, 2 min CD, no cost, no damage loss. Shield Wall should match that or beat it. Something like 80% damage reduction, 4min CD, requires shield (-50% damage output, try it, -20% from 2h spec alone).

    And Spell Reflect should either go back to a 10s CD or not require a shield, its just silly that an ability that cuts our damage by about 50% and requires our opponent to cast into it for only 1 spell should need a 25s CD. Or possibly make it a 1min CD and have it do every spell for 6s without a weapon. You know kind of like AMS and CloS.

    Warriors dont have to be the worst class in the game, lets remember that when thinking up changes.

  5. #5
    This thread has nothing to do with Warriors in MoP. It has everything to do with another "Wishlist" for un-happy warriors. Please edit the title to reflect this. Thanks.

    Post constructively ~ Lohe
    Last edited by Siri; 2012-06-29 at 08:58 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Saent View Post
    The only real downside to using the shield is the damage reduction it causes, shield wall in fact causes you to lose more damage output then the damage protection you gain. So its pretty silly to remove the shield restriction then nerf the damage output.

    And this is the problem with warriors, because for some stupid reason when people think up warrior changes they always have to have a downside; even though other classes with similar abilities dont.

    Like Rogues with combat readiness, in practice 50% damage reduction for 20s, 2 min CD, no cost, no damage loss. Shield Wall should match that or beat it. Something like 80% damage reduction, 4min CD, requires shield (-50% damage output, try it, -20% from 2h spec alone).

    And Spell Reflect should either go back to a 10s CD or not require a shield, its just silly that an ability that cuts our damage by about 50% and requires our opponent to cast into it for only 1 spell should need a 25s CD. Or possibly make it a 1min CD and have it do every spell for 6s without a weapon. You know kind of like AMS and CloS.

    Warriors dont have to be the worst class in the game, lets remember that when thinking up changes.
    bingo,i could not agree more.people/devs need to stop the drawbacks on warrior ability's.we have weaker ability's with draw backs on them,for what?its not balanced,a rogues combat readiness is 100% better the shield wall with no drawbacks,on a dam 2 min cd,wtf.that kind of crap is why i quit wow.all the warrior class ever had was top end damage,without it we are a dead class.because blizz will never give warriors the ulility other classes have.so its top end damage or nothing.then our damage gets nerfed and you get what we are on live,shit.it be cool if they just fix the class,like they did many others.it took blizz how many years to bring reck up to where it should be,6 years?lmfao what a joke.

  7. #7
    one of my biggest concerns is about bladestorm it shouldnt be part of the spec and should be part of the arms spec as no good warrior atm is going to take it dragons roar and shock wave are so much better even with bliz buffing the damage people still wont take it for pvp a 4 second stun on a 20 second cd is to good to pass

  8. #8
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saent View Post
    The only real downside to using the shield is the damage reduction it causes, shield wall in fact causes you to lose more damage output then the damage protection you gain. So its pretty silly to remove the shield restriction then nerf the damage output.
    Shield Wall's also got a long duration and no resource costs of any kind. It also absorbs more damage than most other DR skills and can be glyphed for more, and Arms and Fury are also getting Die by the Sword as a form of no-cost defensive cooldown.

    The only reason I'm even suggesting those changes is because Arms and Fury requiring weapon swap macros/keybinds just to be able to even USE the abilities they're given is pretty absurd. Then again, like Relaxed said, there's no longer a "Requires Shields" bit on either ability now; maybe they removed the requirement and just never told anyone, but that'd make Shield Wall pretty OP for Arms/Fury since they also have Die by the Sword.

    Like Rogues with combat readiness, in practice 50% damage reduction for 20s, 2 min CD, no cost, no damage loss. Shield Wall should match that or beat it. Something like 80% damage reduction, 4min CD, requires shield (-50% damage output, try it, -20% from 2h spec alone).
    Combat Readiness also fizzles if you're playing against people with a pulse; they'll see the buff and immediately swap targets and it'll fall off. Sure, it's effectively guaranteeing you about six or seven seconds of "immunity" versus melee, but it shares a cooldown with Cloak, which means you're trading your defense against spells for a defense against swords. Icebound Fortitude costs resources and barely reduces damage.

    Shield Wall protects from a lot of damage and lasts a long time, and doesn't share cooldowns with other skills or cost resources, but it cuts your damage. It's a tradeoff. Even the 5 min cd is fair now that Arms/Fury have DBTS.

    And Spell Reflect should either go back to a 10s CD or not require a shield, its just silly that an ability that cuts our damage by about 50% and requires our opponent to cast into it for only 1 spell should need a 25s CD. Or possibly make it a 1min CD and have it do every spell for 6s without a weapon. You know kind of like AMS and CloS.

    Warriors dont have to be the worst class in the game, lets remember that when thinking up changes.
    Spell Reflection is fine as-is. Prot got Shield Barrier to reduce incoming magic damage and Spell Reflection is situationally a lot more powerful than Cloak or AMS. It's available a LOT more often and it reflects the spell - you can reflect cyclones, sheeps, fears, etc, and unlike Dark Sim you're basically negating their spellcast, too.

    Again, the only reason I suggested any change is because requiring a class to use macros just to have full functionality is absurd.

    Warriors are already a good class. They don't need huge, sweeping changes to be brought up to the same level as everyone else, just what from my perspective are fairly minor tweaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uricidea View Post
    This thread has nothing to do with Warriors in MoP. It has everything to do with another "Wishlist" for un-happy warriors. Please edit the title to reflect this. Thanks.
    Please don't troll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  9. #9
    Honestly, reducing dmg dealt isn't necessary for spell reflect, its a 6 sec open window for noobie casters to kill themselves, but its needed on shield wall.

    And with the new glyph "Hindering Strikes" i think piercing howl is probably going to be left behind in the dust (hamstring long gone and maybe bloodbath as well).

    Long charge should probably be "baked" into our charge, we got WAY TOO MANY VIABLE GLYPHS!

    Like the idea on 4th set and glove set, 3 rage reduce is just way too boring....

  10. #10
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefkow View Post
    Honestly, reducing dmg dealt isn't necessary for spell reflect, its a 6 sec open window for noobie casters to kill themselves, but its needed on shield wall.

    And with the new glyph "Hindering Strikes" i think piercing howl is probably going to be left behind in the dust (hamstring long gone and maybe bloodbath as well).

    Long charge should probably be "baked" into our charge, we got WAY TOO MANY VIABLE GLYPHS!

    Like the idea on 4th set and glove set, 3 rage reduce is just way too boring....
    Heh, having too many viable glyphs is a good thing, though. Like Endus keeps telling everyone, being made to choose between several good options is a sign the glyph system is working right. Long Charge isn't a choice because I can't think of a single Warrior that won't get it - it's necessary and PvP and at least very useful in PvE so I don't see a reason not to just make Charge 30 yd. Hell, they could increase Charge to 30 yd and keep the glyph in the game if they wanted, Charge just needs to be 30yd regardless.

    Left the beta installing/updating before I left for work today so I'll try to log on tomorrow and test the new glyph. If it's what I'm thinking (applies an extra 50% snare on top of existing ones), it's probably gonna get nerfed - 75% physical snare that effectively has no cooldown seems like it'll be really OP. Probably just reduce the duration to like 4 sec if that's what it functions like. If it's just another replacement for Hamstring... meh, it's nifty but I wouldn't call it great.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  11. #11
    ill bring it up here again

    i dont like the change on taste for blood and i think the hindering strikes glyph should be worked into slam

    i really dont see any reason at all why they would make us use heroic strike again over slam, one ability to use "when you have excessive rage" is enough i dont know why we would need two of these

    id even appreciate it if they would make the slam tooltip say "replaces heroic strike"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReLaXeD View Post
    ill bring it up here again

    i dont like the change on taste for blood and i think the hindering strikes glyph should be worked into slam

    i really dont see any reason at all why they would make us use heroic strike again over slam, one ability to use "when you have excessive rage" is enough i dont know why we would need two of these

    id even appreciate it if they would make the slam tooltip say "replaces heroic strike"
    Well, assuming it adds an EXTRA 50% of snare on the target (so an existing 50% snare becomes 75%), its cost is relatively balanced - you don't WANT to use Heroic Strike all the time, nor can you always afford the 30 rage.

    It'd make Deadly Calm halfway useful, too, by making it cheaper to pop off that snare.

    Hopefully the glyph'll be on the beta servers soon so I can find out for myself
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Well, assuming it adds an EXTRA 50% of snare on the target (so an existing 50% snare becomes 75%), its cost is relatively balanced - you don't WANT to use Heroic Strike all the time, nor can you always afford the 30 rage.

    It'd make Deadly Calm halfway useful, too, by making it cheaper to pop off that snare.
    Hopefully the glyph'll be on the beta servers soon so I can find out for myself
    well i dont think the slow will stack because they are trying to get rid of slows >50 %, they even nerfed cripppling poison to 50 %, but please test it and post your findings here since im not in beta

    but even if it stacks im not sure whether ill use it, you have to use 2 gcds, 40 rage and a precious glyph slot for it not sure whether its worth it

  14. #14
    Even if warriors are buffed to be competitive in MOP, they will get nerfed quickly. Blizzard only allows mages, priests, rogues to be consistently OP since cata.

    It all depends on who is in charge of pvp balance. In TBC, kalgan played a warriors, so warriors were op. In wotlk, after a few patches warriors we op again and shadowmourne just topped it off.

    However, kalgan is now developing titan, so someone else has overall control of the pvp balance, who obviously favours mages, rogues, priests etc.

    This is just my assumption from playing wow for a long time :P Take it as you like.

  15. #15
    ya excepts rogues are shit in mop lol, and you guys now have no cd on charge....

  16. #16
    Combat Readiness also fizzles if you're playing against people with a pulse; they'll see the buff and immediately swap targets and it'll fall off.
    Shield Wall only lasts 12s, if the rogue is hit once with anything Combat Readiness lasts that long, and good luck switching targets before you hit the rogue at all after the buff goes up.


    Shield Wall protects from a lot of damage and lasts a long time, and doesn't share cooldowns with other skills or cost resources, but it cuts your damage. It's a tradeoff. Even the 5 min cd is fair now that Arms/Fury have DBTS.
    No it doesnt protect from a lot of damage, in fact it protects us less then it protects the person were fighting, and it does not last for a long time, 20s > 12s, and I wish we had a Clos alternative it could share a CD with, and neither cost resources, and Combat Mastery does not cut damage, with a 2min CD instead 5min, so yeah 5min NOT FAIR AT ALL!

    And DBTS is a good warrior ability with the rogue version being evasion, and they are well balanced against each other, with DBTS offering more damage reduction but for about half the duration of Evasion. That's the type of balancing shield wall needs, High CD, High Damage Penalty, Moderate Duration, should offer high damage reduction.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-29 at 04:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kilj View Post
    ya excepts rogues are shit in mop lol, and you guys now have no cd on charge....
    Rogues say that shit every expansion and then always end up on top, and datamined changes are not the real thing.
    Last edited by Saent; 2012-06-29 at 04:10 PM.

  17. #17
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saent View Post
    Shield Wall only lasts 12s, if the rogue is hit once with anything Combat Readiness lasts that long, and good luck switching targets before you hit the rogue at all after the buff goes up.




    No it doesnt protect from a lot of damage, in fact it protects us less then it protects the person were fighting, and it does not last for a long time, 20s > 12s, and I wish we had a Clos alternative it could share a CD with, and neither cost resources, and Combat Mastery does not cut damage, with a 2min CD instead 5min, so yeah 5min NOT FAIR AT ALL!

    And DBTS is a good warrior ability with the rogue version being evasion, and they are well balanced against each other, with DBTS offering more damage reduction but for about half the duration of Evasion. That's the type of balancing shield wall needs, High CD, High Damage Penalty, Moderate Duration, should offer high damage reduction.
    Highest damage reduction for a DPS spec in the game. Only tanks have access to better, and it's not by much.

    Combat Readiness lasts 6 seconds against players with a pulse. Only idiots continue to pound on the Rogue when that CR buff shows up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  18. #18
    Warriors dont do any damage when going defensive, thats my biggest issue, that and long cd's.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Warriors dont do any damage when going defensive, thats my biggest issue, that and long cd's.
    DBTS makes Shield Wall's long cd fine, and they're exchanging damage for defense. Warriors are still harder to kill than anyone else while turtling, at least on live. That might change with MoP, but I doubt it.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  20. #20
    coming from a prot pve warrior
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    - Victory Rush should be enabled when any target you have directly damaged (i.e. not a Deep Wounds tick) within the past 6 seconds dies. If Victory Rush is going to be our innate heal, I'd like for Protection to be able to use it and for us to not be completely screwed by our own teammates if we don't get the actual killing blow.
    victory rush is not meant to have a 100% uptime. nor is dark succor or the thing paladins get from a killing blow. would be too op if it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    - Hamstring range should be extended to 10 yd and, like Monk's new Disable ability, it should automatically reapply itself to the nearest target that you have Hamstring on periodically. I don't think we actually need Piercing Howl so much as we need a reliable snare that extends past melee range. I think Piercing Howl with a 15 yd range is strong enough that we should have to make a choice about it. Hamstring should cost 3 rage (it shouldn't be free but it should be almost free.)
    just no, a little jealous of monks are we?

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    - Concussion Blow needs to be returned. If Protection Paladins are keeping Hammer of Justice and can buy talents to gain more CC, I don't really see a reason for Warriors to be losing their long-duration single-target stun. Cooldown can be increased to 45 sec if necessary (shorter than HoJ, but Concussion Blow can be avoided and requires melee range while HoJ ignores avoidance and extends to just past melee range, CB is also 1 second shorter than HoJ.)
    post this on the official forums, no good in posting it here

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    - Demoralizing Shout should affect all enemies within a 100 yard radius. It's supposed to be our answer to Barkskin, but applying it a ranged class with only a 10 yd range will be virtually impossible. Hell, 10 yards probably isn't even wide enough to apply it to approaching adds in PvE! If we're going to be given a short-cooldown/small-effect damage reduction cooldown, it should actually function like one! Intimidating Shout doesn't count because you can't attack a target affected by it without breaking it (unlike stuns.)
    demoralizing shout only reduces physical damage done, no need to applay it to a ranged mob/player except a hunter

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    - Possibly personal opinion, but I'd like to be encouraged to use Heroic Strike instead of defensive abilities sometime. I want tanking in both PvP and PvE to be about balancing your resource usage between more damage and more defense. A good tank should be able to survive a long time and ease the strain on their healers; a great tank should be able to do that while also producing good pressure (for a tank, anyway.)
    last time i was in the beta and its still in the most updated talent calculator and i havent seen it removed in any builds afterwards, theres a passive called "Ultimatum" whenever you devastate you have a 30% chance to cause the next heroic strike/cleave to cost no rage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-01 at 12:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kilj View Post
    and you guys now have no cd on charge....
    if you actually bothered to read the change it says it triggers the spell "Double time" which allows you another charge, and then it incurs the 20s cooldown

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-01 at 12:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ReLaXeD View Post
    ill bring it up here again

    i dont like the change on taste for blood and i think the hindering strikes glyph should be worked into slam

    i really dont see any reason at all why they would make us use heroic strike again over slam, one ability to use "when you have excessive rage" is enough i dont know why we would need two of these

    id even appreciate it if they would make the slam tooltip say "replaces heroic strike"
    i think your missing the point, with the old taste for blood you would rarely use heroic strike/cleave. now with the change slam would be put back into the rotation and you would use heroic strike when you got a few stacks of tfb for some hefty burst, a maximum of 500% increased damage on heroic strike+a 50% snare. i think this is a nice change. actually gives us a reason to use heroic stirke/cleave.

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